"Right" to take from the wealthy

[Awful_Things]

We had a presenter on social justice today who referred to one of the various encyclicals or documents from the Church on social justice and mentioned that it clarifies that, because we have a “right” to basic human dignities, we also have the right to take it from those with excess if we are in great need.

I interpret this as stealing, but perhaps I am misunderstanding because of some context she is not citing. Perhaps, for instance, it is a reference to taxation.

I am writing to see if anyone knows a document or passage to which she might be referring. Please don’t post with your reaction to what she said or your assumptions - I can do plenty of that myself - rather, I am looking for someone who is well-versed in the various documents and might know off-hand what she is referring to.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Well, you can start with this document, especially the section I’ve linked to, and then follow its footnotes to find its various source documents, some of which have greater authority.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#Origin and meaning

Basically the way I’d summarize the principle is that the goods of the Earth belong first of all to all human beings and every human being, just because they are human, has a right to the material things necessary for a basic dignified human life, and that this right takes precedence over property rights or human legal systems. That doesn’t mean property rights or the law can be ignored of course. Ordinarily they need to be respected, which is why “thou shalt not steal” is in the Ten Commandments. But the right to property is subsidiary to the universal destination of goods. To use an example I believe I saw attributed to a Church Father (I want to say St. Basil, but I’m not sure) a starving man who takes a rich man’s bread without permission because he had no other source of food did not steal that bread, he took what was his own.

Edit: trying to fix the link. Let’s try [this](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...oc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#Origin and meaning)

Yes, it worked. Click on the “this” so you can go straight to the section of the document on the universal destination of goods instead of having to find it yourself.

 

[Awful_Things]

Well, you can start with this document, especially the section I’ve linked to, and then follow its footnotes to find its various source documents, some of which have greater authority.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#Origin and meaning

Basically the way I’d summarize the principle is that the goods of the Earth belong first of all to all human beings and every human being, just because they are human, has a right to the material things necessary for a basic dignified human life, and that this right takes precedence over property rights or human legal systems. That doesn’t mean property rights or the law can be ignored of course. Ordinarily they need to be respected, which is why “thou shalt not steal” is in the Ten Commandments. But the right to property is subsidiary to the universal destination of goods. To use an example I believe I saw attributed to a Church Father (I want to say St. Basil, but I’m not sure) a starving man who takes a rich man’s bread without permission because he had no other source of food did not steal that bread, he took what was his own.

Edit: trying to fix the link. Let’s try [this](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...oc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#Origin and meaning)

Yes, it worked. Click on the “this” so you can go straight to the section of the document on the universal destination of goods instead of having to find it yourself.

Thanks. Maybe I’ll have to stop being so critical of the story of Jack and the Beanstalk.

 

[jannes]

Compared to most people on earth I am classed as wealthy.I own a small home have a clean bed and have NEVER been hungry.we do not overindulge , have a holiday twice a year (we’re retired)We give to charity pay out taxes , both of us worked hard.My husband arrived in Canada with twelve dollars and a tool box in 1967, he never took a penny from anyone he worked shifts/ holidays in a steel mill through the heat of the summer and the cold of a Canadian winter and helped his neighbours build their basements and homes without charge for thirty seven years before he retired .After he retired he continued to work helping his friends with projects that enhanced their quality of life ,after our childen were grown I also worked full time to help put some money away from retirement .Do you think any one has the right to take this from us because they have less than me .Do I have the right to take from my friend because his parents left him $500,000 .What about the person who bummed around doing odd jobs and taking his leisure and leaving his family to Welfare because life was too short to take it seriously , but now complain they have nothing and we’re so priveliged and like we owe them something ,Yes if someone is hungry theft for food is permissable but not if the responsibiity to help themselves and family has been forfeited through laziness or a sense of entitlement .

 

[jannes]

PS The goods of the earth do belong to everyone but every able person has the responsibility to sow the seeds and till the fields,not just sit under the apple tree and wait for everyone else to make a pie

 

[Rence]

Compared to most people on earth I am classed as wealthy.I own a small home have a clean bed and have NEVER been hungry.we do not overindulge , have a holiday twice a year (we’re retired)We give to charity pay out taxes , both of us worked hard.My husband arrived in Canada with twelve dollars and a tool box in 1967, he never took a penny from anyone he worked shifts/ holidays in a steel mill through the heat of the summer and the cold of a Canadian winter and helped his neighbours build their basements and homes without charge for thirty seven years before he retired .After he retired he continued to work helping his friends with projects that enhanced their quality of life ,after our childen were grown I also worked full time to help put some money away from retirement .Do you think any one has the right to take this from us because they have less than me .Do I have the right to take from my friend because his parents left him $500,000 .What about the person who bummed around doing odd jobs and taking his leisure and leaving his family to Welfare because life was too short to take it seriously , but now complain they have nothing and we’re so priveliged and like we owe them something ,Yes if someone is hungry theft for food is permissable but not if the responsibiity to help themselves and family has been forfeited through laziness or a sense of entitlement .

 

[dusza]

Let’s not forget that we are part of the Universal church, and whilst such teaching may seem unfair to us in the west, it makes a lot more sense in e.g. Africa. So don’t take it so personally America, after all:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3749/uspoor.jpg

In that light, I’m pretty sure that the poor in America are not justified in taking anything from the wealthy.

 

[vera_dicere]

My brother’s just spent a year in Africa. People want to see real poverty, go there, he said.

Its what I find so odd, people harp on about being “poor”, but usually their western poverty is due to poor fiscal choices, “keeping up with the Joneses”, and sometimes a mental health issue or gambling addiction.

In places like Africa, its not their fault they’re poor, its an entire system failure.

But no matter how poor a person is, they have NO right to take something from someone who has not granted permission for them to have it.

Catholic teaching at its core will line up with one of those things Moses got… you know, the big Ten.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

To the last several posts, this is the conventional wisdom of our times, or at least one of several prevailing opinions. But is it Church teaching?

 

[St_Francis]

Many people in this country are poor. For too many of those, these is the result of poor choices/bad upbringing.

But for all too many, it is the result of factors beyond their control. I know two sisters who are poor. One is in such bad health she cannot be left alone; the other cannot earn enough to pay for someone to care for her. The two of them live on the one sister’s disability. Luckily they inherited their parents’ house.

Yesterday I saw a woman about my age. She had apparently been in a terrible accident, and looked like any recovery would take months. While her face had healed, there were still signs of injury; she needed a cane to walk.

The husbands of two families I know went into business buying houses and fixing them up. When the housing bubble burst, they were caught with houses they could not sell and needed to pay the mortgage on. The child of one family was diagnosed with cancer and had to be treated at a hospital an hour away from their home.

---

And that study about who owns what really drives me crazy!!! Obviously the people who got a grant to find this out have never been poor or broke. Goodie for them.

What is the point of that list? Wow, that poor people live in houses? The vast majority of which come with refrigerators, air conditioning, and the like? Do they begrudge these things to the poor?

Many poor people were once not poor, during which time they bought things like video games. And most of these items are available at a small fraction of their prices at thrift shops, where I have even seen flat-screen tvs.

That list just annoys me every time I see it.

 

[Awful_Things]

To the last several posts, this is the conventional wisdom of our times, or at least one of several prevailing opinions. But is it Church teaching?

This is the question. As I put in the initial post, I’m not interested in anyone’s opinion of what is right or wrong. Your opinion is worth little more to me than my aunt’s opinion that she can “confess straight to God instead of a priest” or Eve’s opinion that there was no harm in eating the fruit.

At this point, Aelred has referenced Church documents that seem to support the right of the poor to take “what is rightfully theirs” from the rich IF the need is there. The document doesn’t appear to give any qualifiers as to whether or not it is this person’s “fault” if he is poor.

This goes against my basic political and societal thoughts, but I will (in the end) defer to the Church, so let’s stay focused on that.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Many people in this country are poor. For too many of those, these is the result of poor choices/bad upbringing.

But for all too many, it is the result of factors beyond their control. I know two sisters who are poor. One is in such bad health she cannot be left alone; the other cannot earn enough to pay for someone to care for her. The two of them live on the one sister’s disability. Luckily they inherited their parents’ house.

Yesterday I saw a woman about my age. She had apparently been in a terrible accident, and looked like any recovery would take months. While her face had healed, there were still signs of injury; she needed a cane to walk.

The husbands of two families I know went into business buying houses and fixing them up. When the housing bubble burst, they were caught with houses they could not sell and needed to pay the mortgage on. The child of one family was diagnosed with cancer and had to be treated at a hospital an hour away from their home.

---

And that study about who owns what really drives me crazy!!! Obviously the people who got a grant to find this out have never been poor or broke. Goodie for them.

What is the point of that list? Wow, that poor people live in houses? The vast majority of which come with refrigerators, air conditioning, and the like? Do they begrudge these things to the poor?

Many poor people were once not poor, during which time they bought things like video games. And most of these items are available at a small fraction of their prices at thrift shops, where I have even seen flat-screen tvs.

That list just annoys me every time I see it.

Indeed. I look at that list and think to myself that it means poor people can’t have nice things. Nothing inherently wrong in having nice things, it just means one has to acquire them on the second market at lower prices, in order to balance ones budget properly. I’m on disability and I work part time, plus I rent the top half of my parents’ house. But I manage to buy myself a book or a DVD every so often by getting them used on Amazon or Alibris.

 

[Awful_Things]

Indeed. I look at that list and think to myself that it means poor people can’t have nice things. Nothing inherently wrong in having nice things, it just means one has to acquire them on the second market at lower prices, in order to balance ones budget properly. I’m on disability and I work part time, plus I rent the top half of my parents’ house. But I manage to buy myself a book or a DVD every so often by getting them used on Amazon or Alibris.

Is the list meant to criticize poor or imply they can’t have nice things?

I took it to mean that “poor” in America is different from poor in many other countries, and so the Church teaching we are discussing would apply differently depending on one’s definition of poor.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Is the list meant to criticize poor or imply they can’t have nice things?

I took it to mean that “poor” in America is different from poor in many other countries, and so the Church teaching we are discussing would apply differently depending on one’s definition of poor.

It’s hard to say, but that’s the kind of feeling I get. I once had a co-worker (I work grocery retail) go off about how a woman using a food stamps card was buying some of the more expensive shampoo that the store carried: “If you’re that poor you should be spending less and being thrifty” etc. I argued that maybe she needed pricier hair products because of a health condition that affected her hair, etc, but my co-worker would have none of that. I hate it when people try to dictate other people’s buying habits. As long as a person is living within their means and their material things aren’t the be-all and end-all of their lives, I don’t see what the big deal is; just because you’re on a budget, should that mean you have to live like a monk?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Many people in this country are poor. For too many of those, these is the result of poor choices/bad upbringing.

But for all too many, it is the result of factors beyond their control. I know two sisters who are poor. One is in such bad health she cannot be left alone; the other cannot earn enough to pay for someone to care for her. The two of them live on the one sister’s disability. Luckily they inherited their parents’ house.

Yesterday I saw a woman about my age. She had apparently been in a terrible accident, and looked like any recovery would take months. While her face had healed, there were still signs of injury; she needed a cane to walk.

The husbands of two families I know went into business buying houses and fixing them up. When the housing bubble burst, they were caught with houses they could not sell and needed to pay the mortgage on. The child of one family was diagnosed with cancer and had to be treated at a hospital an hour away from their home.

---

And that study about who owns what really drives me crazy!!! Obviously the people who got a grant to find this out have never been poor or broke. Goodie for them.

What is the point of that list? Wow, that poor people live in houses? The vast majority of which come with refrigerators, air conditioning, and the like? Do they begrudge these things to the poor?

Many poor people were once not poor, during which time they bought things like video games. And most of these items are available at a small fraction of their prices at thrift shops, where I have even seen flat-screen tvs.

That list just annoys me every time I see it.

 

[St_Francis]

Is the list meant to criticize poor or imply they can’t have nice things?

I took it to mean that “poor” in America is different from poor in many other countries, and so the Church teaching we are discussing would apply differently depending on one’s definition of poor.

The list was put out by the Heritage Foundation and is generally used to imply that poor people are not really poor.

 

[St_Francis]

The list was put out by the Heritage Foundation and is generally used to imply that poor people are not really poor.

Let me take this back. After years of being aggravated by this chart and its predecessors, I read the article

The main point of the article is to describe the actual living conditions of those who are classified as poor by the government.

They also describe what many Americans believe about poor people, and some of the (inaccurate) rhetoric used by advocates of the poor (including Catholic Charities ).

The government classifies people as poor based on “cash income,” which does not count most forms of government aid. Which brings up another point: that those who qualify for government aid often have it easier than those who do not. One example is that state-funded health insurance covers more than any employment-based health insurance I have seen, and most of the latter is at least in part paid for by the employee. What this means is that the person who does not qualify for state aid may also not be able to afford even basic health insurance, and if that person needs something major, if they break an arm, for example, they may have to forego some treatment, an operation or physical therapy, that poor people would get.

The other thing that gets to me is that a lot of the rent for Section 8 housing includes lawn care…

 

[St_Francis]

Bu I want to clarify that poor people would be in terrible shape if it weren’t for government aid.

 

[Contarini]

We had a presenter on social justice today who referred to one of the various encyclicals or documents from the Church on social justice and mentioned that it clarifies that, because we have a “right” to basic human dignities, we also have the right to take it from those with excess if we are in great need.

I interpret this as stealing, but perhaps I am misunderstanding because of some context she is not citing. Perhaps, for instance, it is a reference to taxation.

I am writing to see if anyone knows a document or passage to which she might be referring. Please don’t post with your reaction to what she said or your assumptions - I can do plenty of that myself - rather, I am looking for someone who is well-versed in the various documents and might know off-hand what she is referring to.

Aquinas deals with this here–see especially art. 5. Note that it’s referring to dire need, not just to wanting something nice that a rich person has. (The question of whether “progressive” taxation is theft as some American conservatives/libertarians claim is a separate one–I think it’s pretty clear in the Catholic tradition that it isn’t theft, but obviously as you note that’s different than a poor person just grabbing stuff.)

The classic literary example would be Jean Valjean in Les Miserables. He was sentenced to the galleys for something (taking a loaf of bread without paying for it, because his sister’s children were starving to death) that wasn’t wrong at all by traditional Catholic standards.

Obviously there are a lot of more marginal cases, but hopefully that example gives you a better idea of what the Catholic moral tradition is talking about!

Edwin

 

[goldangel]

Let’s not forget that we are part of the Universal church, and whilst such teaching may seem unfair to us in the west, it makes a lot more sense in e.g. Africa. So don’t take it so personally America, after all:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3749/uspoor.jpg

In that light, I’m pretty sure that the poor in America are not justified in taking anything from the wealthy.

Many of the poor are mentally ill. I’m not saying this to be critical, but some people have never had a psychotic episode or been present when a loved one has one. That is an extremely frightening situation (I have experience). Prompt treatment is essential in that situation. Amenities don’t help when people are terrified they are losing their minds. There are estimates that 1% of americans are severely mentally ill. That’s over 3 million people. Many of them have money but many don’t.

treatmentsolutionsnetwork.com/blog/index.php/2011/04/06/link-between-poverty-and-mental-illness/

While mental illness can affect anyone, there is new research that suggests that people with low incomes are more prone to it. Authorities hope that the study, which was published in the March issue of the Archives of Psychiatry, will be beneficial for dealing with public health issues.

We already know that poverty leads to a host of problems, including health problems and lack of medical care, and a lack of education and training. With the added threat of mental illness, we can see even more need to help these people make use of resources available to them.

I know that posters usually mean able-bodied and in decent mental health when they say poor, but the mentally ill are too often a forgotten population.

edited to add: I see the OP wants Church teachings, not personal opinions. The truth is I’m not sure how to sort that out between the CCC, various encyclicals and etc. but my point is that in addressing poverty, thinking about severe mental illness needs to be part of that. So whatever the Church says, the thinking about the mentally ill is also relevant. Mental illness can improve a great deal with proper treatment and many people can work if they are “allowed” to take time out of the workforce, and not required to work 40 hours/week when ill.