Righteousness: Mosaic Law or The Catechism?

[Cat_Herder]

If one could obtain righteousness by following the written word, then Christ died for nothing, right?

The question is, how can one set of written commandments be substituted for another set of written commandments at the expense of any leading of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit IS the author of the written commandments.

That’s not a relationship with God or Jesus, it’s a relationship at best with the church, and at worst with a dead document.

The Church IS the Body of Jesus and in the sense IS Him. He told Saul not that Saul was persecuting a church, but HIM.

Someone might want to extrapolate on these as the OP has me on ignore.

 

[davidv]

There are a couple of different issues here.

One is how should Christians treat those other Christians who they believe to be sinning. What is going on in that birth control thread is way beyond charitable correction. I find it quite appalling to treat someone, a sister in Christ, that way. That’s not what my question is about, though.

If one could obtain righteousness by following the written word, then Christ died for nothing, right?

The question is, how can one set of written commandments be substituted for another set of written commandments at the expense of any leading of the Holy Spirit?

I don’t understand how you can view the Catechism as another set of commandments. How did you come to this conclusion.

That’s not a relationship with God or Jesus, it’s a relationship at best with the church, and at worst with a dead document. When I read the bible I get a different picture of how we are supposed to conduct ourselves, and what our spiritual life is to be like.

I do not recognize the Catholic Church that I am a part in this description. How is it that you think the Church teaches differently than what you see?
You seem that you have ascribed attributes to the Catechism that don’t exist.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW, thanks for all the (except for one) charitable responses! I understand that Catholics hold the teaching of the church equal with scripture and all. Still I think I’m asking a reasonable question, and one that must have a better and more reasoned answer. Where does the bible allow for something like the catechism to carry the weight that it does? If that authority is derived from sacred tradition with no scriptural support, then there is probably no point in continuing the discussion.

The Bible records Paul stating the the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. The apostles were given the authority to bind and loose by Christ himself.

EDIT 2: Regarding my last comment about the lie, I should be more charitable and retract that. I’m sorry for saying it Cat Herder. All I can say is that whatever experience you have with AoG is not universal. You will remain on my ignore list, and I won’t view your posts any more, because your original statement, not to mention your Matt 25 quote, is an attack on my faith.

 

[PLeeD]

I don’t understand how you can view the Catechism as another set of commandments. How did you come to this conclusion.

It’s not a conclusion. It’s an observation based on other threads on CAF.

You verified my statement that " if her conscience doesn’t conform to what the church teaches then her conscience is wrong" by pointing to some passages in the catechism. So in that sense the catechism is a set of commandments that Catholics are expected to follow regardless of their intellectual or spiritual belief. I share the question of the other Catholic posters asking how that leaves any room for the Holy Spirit to work through the conscience.

Are we not sealed with the Holy Spirit that is working to conform us to God’s will? If that Holy Spirit living in us is not convicting us on some issue where there are valid questions regarding what the church is teaching, what should we do? The answer seems to be “follow the text of the catechism”. Even if we assume that the catechism comes from the same authority that gave us the Law of Moses, I really don’t see how that is much different from the spiritual lives of the Jews 2000 years ago.

BTW, I haven’t had a chance to read those parts of the catechism you suggested, but will shortly. Maybe that will shed more light on the subject for me.

 

[Cat_Herder]

It’s not a conclusion. It’s an observation based on other threads on CAF.
…

BTW, I haven’t had a chance to read those parts of the catechism you suggested, but will shortly. Maybe that will shed more light on the subject for me.

I strongly suggest that you do so. What you will see is that the Catechism is basically a written sermon on the Ten Commandments among other things.

I think you would say that an A/G pastor’s sermon on the Commandments has authority to convict. Then why not that same pastor’s written sermon? Then why not the Catechism?

 

[Barbkw]

PleeD,

I did an online search and from what I’ve read, the AG sees nothing immoral about the use of artifical birth control.

From the AG website: ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/pp_downloads/PP_Sanctity_of_Human_Life_Abortion_Reproductive_Issues.pdf

"The Beginning of Life

Contraception.

The Assemblies of God, finding no clear scriptural mandate, does not
take an official stand on the appropriateness of contraception within a heterosexual
marriage for purposes of regulating the number of children, determining the time of their
birth, or safeguarding the health of the mother.

These are matters of personal conscience as godly spouses prayerfully covenant with God about the growth of their families.

While there are important ethical issues in determining to have a family, the prevention of
pregnancy is understood to be qualitatively different from the termination of pregnancy
since the sperm has not fertilized the ovum and human life has not yet begun.

The biological processes themselves teach us that in God’s creative design not every sperm or ovum is intended to survive and unite.

It should be remembered, however, that some methods commonly regarded as contraception, such as the IUD and the morning-after pill, are actually agents that abort, rather than prevent, pregnancy.

The Bible teaches that in the institution of marriage, children are divinely ordered both to
fulfill God’s divine purposes for the race and for the repopulation of the earth. The
mandate to the first pair was, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and
subdue it” (Genesis 1:28).

Throughout Scripture, children are regarded as God’s gift:

“Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him” (Psalm 127:3).

There are certain circumstances where couples may choose not to have children for very good reasons.

However, the use of contraception merely to avoid the demands of child rearing
ought to be prayerfully examined in terms of the purity of one’s motives and the personal
implications of the divine mandate."

 

[PLeeD]

Thanks for that Barb. Though, I don’t have any specific questions about birth control or divorce.

My question is more about what should happen if one’s conscience, supposedly informed by the Holy Spirit, is in opposition to some written teaching of the Catholic church. And, if the answer is “follow the teaching”, then I have to wonder how that differs from the relationship between early Jews and the Law of Moses.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Thanks for that Barb. Though, I don’t have any specific questions about birth control or divorce.

My question is more about what should happen if one’s conscience, supposedly informed by the Holy Spirit, is in opposition to some written teaching of the Catholic church. And, if the answer is “follow the teaching”, then I have to wonder how that differs from the relationship between early Jews and the Law of Moses.

The overarching theme in your posts is that there was something “wrong” with the relationship between Israel and the Lord beyond the sinfulness of the former (in line with the pre-Calvary depravity of all humans bar Enoch and Elijah).

There’s nothing wrong with the Law. No, one cannot achieve salvation through the Law alone. But the very definition of salvation is conversion so that one becomes able and indeed joyful in keeping the Law. Just read the Psalms.

Of course this is not something that humans can achieve without Christ. Even Enoch and Elijah were saved by Christ. That is something to ponder.

 

[Barbkw]

Thanks for that Barb. Though, I don’t have any specific questions about birth control or divorce.

My question is more about what should happen if one’s conscience, supposedly informed by the Holy Spirit, is in opposition to some written teaching of the Catholic church. And, if the answer is “follow the teaching”, then I have to wonder how that differs from the relationship between early Jews and the Law of Moses.

How do you answer your concerns on issues that differ from the AG’s position?

I’ve read through the doctrinal positions of the AG (from their website) and althou not completely in line with the Catholic Church, they are far closer than many present day protestant denominations concerning abortion, euthansia, embroyonic stem cell research, and in vitro fertilization.

The AG website is using Sacred Scripture and Sacred Apostolic Tradition as their base for judgement (as the Catholic Church does). They, like the Catholic Church, are also putting the information together with the gained knowledge of their pastors.

We, being a 2,000 year old Church, have a larger deposit to gather from: Church Fathers, Popes, etc.

 

[rdscheirer]

I seem to always have thread killer- Jesus said " Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and spirit: and love your neighbor as yourself.

If everyone in the world did this it would be the “Kingdom of God” that Jesus talks about throughout the Gospels.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Seems as though the law of Moses is simply supplanted by the catechism - one form of legalism in place of other. If your conscience doesn’t conform to the catechism then your conscience is wrong.

What room is left for the Holy Spirit to do His work in our hearts?

What we follow is the Deposit of Faith. Of course the Catechism points to that, but the Catechism itself isn’t even a “legal” document of the Church, its a teaching tool.