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DPMartin
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Is there Righteousness in obedience? Or is Righteousness of God? What Justifies a man, God or man?
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davidv
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DPMartin
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David
thanks for the reply
Ok, but that verse is in the context that starts with:
(KJV) Rom:2:1: Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Therefore what is the actual root of, obedience to wickedness? And doesn’t true obedience include not to judge another’s disobedience, but be a participant in His Grace and Peace unto the world?
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Carlan
Guest
Yes , God is our only judge, we are to judge that which is good and evil and act accordingly.
The very first lesson was given by the Father in the garden of Eden, Obedience! Do not eat of the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” . They were tempted and ate anyway. It was a sin of pride. Peace, Carlan
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DPMartin
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Carlan
thanks for the reply
Ether you agree that God is the Judge of what is good and evil, or you agree that you are the judge of what is good and evil. And considering God is the Maker of all things, would it be disrespectful to God thinking one is wiser then God. Considering that it was God who declared all that He has made is Good Very Good.
Therfore,no, no, and again no, it’s the other way around, my friend in Christ Jesus. Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil agreeing that they will judge what is good and evil in order to be like gods in there own judgements of what is good and evil. For you agree that something is good for you, by eating it. And what is good for you is God’s Judgements of what is good for you, which is the fulfilment of His Word, in you by the Power of His Holy Spirit. Not your judgement, His. Hence the Tree of Life, made available to mankind. In His bountiful goodness.
It is God that sees repentance, and has already responded to it in the Fulfillment of His Word in the Son of Man, Jesus Christ. Consider how soon He said He would do this…
Gen:3:
14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Even in the “you have no say, and have no opportunity to speak for yourself, nor will I hear” to the serpent. That my friend is true condemnation, and the true evil to be denied to be in the Presence of God, and live. Where one has no place to speak unto the Lord, for one’s self, nor has the right to be heard.
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Carlan
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DP,
I do mess up getting what i mean said in an understandable way at times I am sorry.
I simply meant that we are not the judge of mens hearts, that’s God’s call.
We are given, by the grace of God, to discern what is good and what is evil so as not to sin and therefore lose God’s sanctifying grace.
Peace, Carlan
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puzzleannie
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of what use is hearing the word of God if we do not heed and obey it?
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Tantum_ergo
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God is the judge, But He has made many of His judgments known regarding actions. What we do not know is the individual judgment He makes for any person at the person’s death.
Now. . .since God has made many of His judgments known regarding actions, to acknowledge those judgments as correct is not ‘us’ judging, rather it is our acceptance of God’s judgment.
Item: Stealing is morally wrong. So if a person came to me and said that he had stolen $100 from another man, I would not be ‘judging this man’ were I to tell him that stealing was wrong. For it is God who has judged that stealing is wrong.
What would you have me do, DP? I certainly could not tell the man that he had acted correctly in stealing, could I? What would you have me do? Say, “Oh I’m not going to JUDGE you, but you need to give that money back.” What if he says, “Why should I?” Somehow I’d have to say that what he did was wrong–not because I am JUDGING him but because he really had done something wrong, and there is no way that, once he had told me, I could NOT tell him the truth, lest I be complicit in his sin.
Now. . .since God has made many of His judgments known regarding actions, to acknowledge those judgments as correct is not ‘us’ judging, rather it is our acceptance of God’s judgment.
Item: Stealing is morally wrong. So if a person came to me and said that he had stolen $100 from another man, I would not be ‘judging this man’ were I to tell him that stealing was wrong. For it is God who has judged that stealing is wrong.
What would you have me do, DP? I certainly could not tell the man that he had acted correctly in stealing, could I? What would you have me do? Say, “Oh I’m not going to JUDGE you, but you need to give that money back.” What if he says, “Why should I?” Somehow I’d have to say that what he did was wrong–not because I am JUDGING him but because he really had done something wrong, and there is no way that, once he had told me, I could NOT tell him the truth, lest I be complicit in his sin.
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DPMartin
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CarlanDP,
I do mess up getting what i mean said in an understandable way at times I am sorry.
I simply meant that we are not the judge of mens hearts, that’s God’s call.
We are given, by the grace of God, to discern what is good and what is evil so as not to sin and therefore lose God’s sanctifying grace.
Thanks for your reply
Then I apologize if I misunderstood the intent of your posting, a presumption on my part. I can relate to the difficulty you mentioned. One can understand how it is when Apostle Paul described, it’s like looking through smoked glass, you get the glimpse, so to speak, put conveying what one understands do to that glimpse, can be difficult. It gets better as it goes. Thanks very much for being patient.
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DPMartin
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puzzleannie
thanks for the reply
It is always about the fulfillment of His Word, According to the fulfillment of His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ…
Did we earn the right to be in the flesh? Or did God give it freely? we didn’t fulfill what is necessary to sustain life or flesh on the face of the earth? No, the Lord God fulfilled what is necessary to sustain life or flesh on the face of the earth. Of which we are recipients and sharers thereof.
Since God is Love, then, there is no one that can make or take Love. You can’t make God. But one can receive of God, then one can receive God’s Love, which is freely, or it is not God’s Love, and since one can give that which he has received freely, then he can give the Love he has received, freely.
Your question of why hear His Word, to receive His fulfillment of His Word, in His Presence for that is what is Good (our Lord Jesus Christ). The same is in Forgiveness. What is the reason to forgive, for your reasons, or because God said so, in the respect, and trust of, the fulfillment of His Word. It is always about the fulfillment of His Word. And He reveals His Word to whom ever He Chooses. A preacher once expressed his notice that when the Lord was risen, He revealed Himself, the resurrected Christ, only to loving hearts and loving hands, in whom He Loved First.
A wise man knows that if he think himself wise, then he is not wise, for he knows the Way of Life is always higher then himself. (In my case, way higher).
Hence in the same, we do not make righteous for God has fulfilled His Righteousness in the Son of Man we know as Jesus the Christ, the Holy One of Israel. Note also the His Righteousness was fulfill in His Holy Presence. (By the Power of the Holy Spirit).
I am sure there are and could be volumes written about it, but I believe this is the heart of it.
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Carlan
Guest
DP. May I put it in my old fashioned Catholic terms. We are probably saying the same thing
God will reveal His love to all his children through his Son Jesus Christ, however, we as individuals must turn to Him in the freewill he has given us(now, this our part) When we are ready to give up our sin and repent, ask for forgiveness and receive redemption then and only then will God receive us unto justification , sanctification, and salvation. God bless and give us all his peace, Carlan
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DPMartin
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Surly in the Spirit of your concern, how could such be incorrect. In informing someone whether such things are in the Spirit of the Fulfillment of His Word or not. In that it is of God, not of ourselves. For we would not know nor understand without His revelation of the same to us in that we have responded in repentance and have relied on His Strength and Wisdom with us to not only be fulfilled according to His Word but share in the same.
Therefore we share in the Trust of God’s Judgements, in the recognition of His Mercy and Forgiveness.
Not in the spirit of let us find error so that we can punish. Which seeks to be right, or righteous at the expense of the Merciful Salvation for others, that the same has received for himself.
51: And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52: And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53: And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
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DPMartin
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CarlanDP. May I put it in my old fashioned Catholic terms. We are probably saying the same thing
God will reveal His love to all his children through his Son Jesus Christ, however, we as individuals must turn to Him in the freewill he has given us(now, this our part) When we are ready to give up our sin and repent, ask for forgiveness and receive redemption then and only then will God receive us unto justification , sanctification, and salvation. God bless and give us all his peace, Carlan
thanks for the reply
Amen
Nothing old fashioned about that. This applies yesterday, today and until Kingdom come.
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fhansen
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DPMartin;6829604What Justifies a man said:
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DPMartin
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Fhansen
thanks for the reply
Understood:
But does the obedience make righteous?
Or is the fulfillment of God’s Word Righteous? In repentance of one’s own will/choice in the submission, Trusting that the Fulfillment of God’s Word is Righteous and His Judgement is Good, makes Just? Which one knows, is not of one’s self, but of God.
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fhansen
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I really think it’s simpler than that. Ultimately obedience doesn’t come from trying to obey. This ends up in legalism. Obedience results as as we come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength-IOW only as we grow in the knowledge of God until we recognize what Adam & Eve didn’t-that He’s fully worthy of our love and obedience. And with His grace and patience He works with us, if we’re willing, the Potter molding the clay, until we’re fully formed in this way, rather than demanding instant perfection.
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DPMartin
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Fhansen
Thanks for the reply
I’d say you are correct on the possibility of legalism, or at the least sounding like legalism. It wasn’t intended to be so. But as you have stated, this is the Way of the Lord God in His doing, for He forms the clay, the clay doesn’t form itself. It’s kinda like, if the Lord tells you to do this, is there any reason to investigate anything else? Considering there is only One Way.
Thanks again for the reply
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