RIP Pope Shenouda III

[dcointin]

Your disrespect for the reposed Coptic Orthodox Pope is shameful, sir, and you should apologise for your tone and comments!

Rome itself has repudiated the “uniate” model of church union that you praise so highly (and it would even be wrong to speak of my Church, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, to be in communion with Rome since Rome does for us whatever the Russian Orthodox Church affirms should be done - such as deny acknowlegement of a patriarchate for the UGCC).

Be that as it may, there is no longer any misunderstanding between the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches on the score of Christology.

The Coptic Orthodox Church has always affirmed the Cyrillian Christology and much more can be read on this in the ecumenical reports on this subject.

“Miaphysite” is the term they apply to themselves while condemning “monophysism.” And where and when did this Pope persecute Coptic Catholics???

Please provide some evidentiary proof for your outlandish and outrageous claims.

Alex

Absolutely! The Copts are not monophysite, despite how they may have been described in the past. I invite Marduk to comment further on Coptic Christology since it’s out of my area of expertise, but I consider the Copts completely orthodox. Completely.

 

[dzheremi]

What on earth is the “Coptic Chaldean Syrian Church”? That’s a new one on me. Sounds like Murtad is strainin’ to do some explainin’…

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Friends,

What is interesting about the Coptic Orthodox Church is that all of its popes and patriarchs, from the time of St Mark, have all been canonized as saints. Pope Kyrillos VI is widely venerated as a miracle-worker, but the rule is that fifty years must transpire before the official canonization may take place.

The Coptic people are undergoing tremendous persecution and not too long ago a young Coptic student was actually beheaded by his teacher and fellow students for refusing to hide or take off his neck cross.

A friend of mine who is a university student and a Coptic Christian takes his daily office book with him everywhere. All Coptic Christians are expected, as I understand it, to pray the seven Hours daily (each hour has 12 psalms with more for the Midnight Hour).

Perhaps we Christians should be a bit more disciplined about these matters. What if we all wore a Cross or other symbol to indicate our Christian faith and identity? What if we formally prayed seven times a day and made it a point to leave whatever we are doing to do so (I’m not saying we should say 12 psalms, but some prayers and scripture reading . . .) ?

Every time I sit on the public transit, I see followers of different faiths praying all around me (and I do too). Isn’t it time for Christians to witness to their faith in the public sphere like these?

Alex

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Very good sir! Dioscoros was actually the nephew of St Cyril of Alexandria who zealously upheld his uncle’s Christology. He did, in fact, physically attack St Flavian of Constantinople as he believed Flavian to have uttered approval of Nestorianism . . . Flavian did die as a result of that attack. It wasn’t surprising that such theological debates ended in violence - as we know, even the great St Nicholas of Myra in Lycia physically attacked Arius and punched him in the face during the first Ecumenical Council . . . People take their religious beliefs seriously . . .

It is actually very dubious if Dioscorus ordered the attack or personally attacked Flavian. If anything, it would probably have been Barsumas’ work.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

Dear Friends,

What is interesting about the Coptic Orthodox Church is that all of its popes and patriarchs, from the time of St Mark, have all been canonized as saints. Pope Kyrillos VI is widely venerated as a miracle-worker, but the rule is that fifty years must transpire before the official canonization may take place.

The Coptic people are undergoing tremendous persecution and not too long ago a young Coptic student was actually beheaded by his teacher and fellow students for refusing to hide or take off his neck cross.

A friend of mine who is a university student and a Coptic Christian takes his daily office book with him everywhere. All Coptic Christians are expected, as I understand it, to pray the seven Hours daily (each hour has 12 psalms with more for the Midnight Hour).

Perhaps we Christians should be a bit more disciplined about these matters. What if we all wore a Cross or other symbol to indicate our Christian faith and identity? What if we formally prayed seven times a day and made it a point to leave whatever we are doing to do so (I’m not saying we should say 12 psalms, but some prayers and scripture reading . . .) ?

Every time I sit on the public transit, I see followers of different faiths praying all around me (and I do too). Isn’t it time for Christians to witness to their faith in the public sphere like these?

Alex

 

[dzheremi]

A friend of mine who is a university student and a Coptic Christian takes his daily office book with him everywhere. All Coptic Christians are expected, as I understand it, to pray the seven Hours daily (each hour has 12 psalms with more for the Midnight Hour).

“Expected” could have some different meanings…that is the ideal, yes, and we are certainly encouraged to pray the hours as often as we can, and it seems like Prime and Compline are pretty standard, as I have several Agpeyas, including one that has only these two hours and pocket-sized, meant to be carried everywhere; depending on when I’m out and about on a particular day, I’ll take this one with me (as it is less bulky than my full one, not hardcover).

 

[Trebor135]

The Coptic people are undergoing tremendous persecution and not too long ago a young Coptic student was actually beheaded by his teacher and fellow students for refusing to hide or take off his neck cross.

Holy smokes. Do you have a link to a news source about this story?

Perhaps we Christians should be a bit more disciplined about these matters. What if we all wore a Cross or other symbol to indicate our Christian faith and identity? What if we formally prayed seven times a day and made it a point to leave whatever we are doing to do so (I’m not saying we should say 12 psalms, but some prayers and scripture reading . . .) ?

Every time I sit on the public transit, I see followers of different faiths praying all around me (and I do too). Isn’t it time for Christians to witness to their faith in the public sphere like these?

Amen.

 

[Khalid]

Very good sir! Dioscoros was actually the nephew of St Cyril of Alexandria who zealously upheld his uncle’s Christology. He did, in fact, physically attack St Flavian of Constantinople as he believed Flavian to have uttered approval of Nestorianism . . . Flavian did die as a result of that attack. It wasn’t surprising that such theological debates ended in violence - as we know, even the great St Nicholas of Myra in Lycia physically attacked Arius and punched him in the face during the first Ecumenical Council . . . People take their religious beliefs seriously . . .

The difference is that Arius, was, well, Arius. He has plagued the Church for thousands of years and continues to this very day, always popping up at important historical junctures - Unitarianism which became liberal Christianity, Jehovah’s Witnessism, so on. Only Gnosticism has been more pervasive (Scientology, New Age, Christian Science, Mormonism, Kabbalah).

 

[dzheremi]

Holy smokes. Do you have a link to a news source about this story?

He wasn’t decapitated, but he was murdered by his classmates after refusing to cover up his cross tattoo after having been ordered to do so by his Muslim teacher. The beating began in the classroom proper (encouraged by the teacher, who nearly physically choked the boy), and continued when Ayman fled the classroom. By the time an ambulance arrived to take him from the school grounds, he was dead from the beating.

Martyr for Christ, Ayman Nabil Labib, pray for us before the Lord that He may deliver His persecuted believers from the hands of their oppressors, and comfort and protect all who are left behind to mourn in the wake of these terrible incidents.

 

[Nine_Two]

He wasn’t decapitated, but he was murdered by his classmates after refusing to cover up his cross tattoo after having been ordered to do so by his Muslim teacher. The beating began in the classroom proper (encouraged by the teacher, who nearly physically choked the boy), and continued when Ayman fled the classroom. By the time an ambulance arrived to take him from the school grounds, he was dead from the beating.

Martyr for Christ, Ayman Nabil Labib, pray for us before the Lord that He may deliver His persecuted believers from the hands of their oppressors, and comfort and protect all who are left behind to mourn in the wake of these terrible incidents.

That’s just sickening.

And Secularists here will still insist there is no such thing as persecution of Christians.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have heard this situation, disturbing to say the least. The News related storie’s I have heard as of late of the persecution in Syria now unfolding are disturbing also. I don’t believe theres any question that the goal to exile Christianity from all extreme islamic countrys is unfolding before our eyes daily on the news.

You know what I find most disturbing? That the USA while being a major world power and by majority Christian, will not help Christians. They will help every other cause on Gods Green Earth. But by large Christianity has been left to fend for itself.

And we talked about the christian persecution of last century. This one came out of the gates full speed. Last centuries martyrs are not fully realized as of yet.

A major concern to be sure.

 

[BlueSapphire]

Réquiem ætérnam dona eis, Dómine,
et lux perpétua lúceat eis.
Requiéscant in pace. Amen.

 

[malphono]

I have heard this situation, disturbing to say the least. The News related storie’s I have heard as of late of the persecution in Syria now unfolding are disturbing also. I don’t believe theres any question that the goal to exile Christianity from all extreme islamic countrys is unfolding before our eyes daily on the news.

You know what I find most disturbing? That the USA while being a major world power and by majority Christian, will not help Christians. They will help every other cause on Gods Green Earth. But by large Christianity has been left to fend for itself.

And we talked about the christian persecution of last century. This one came out of the gates full speed. Last centuries martyrs are not fully realized as of yet.

A major concern to be sure.

Indeed. This discussion calls to mind a [thread=511320]thread here[/thread] from a while back. At the risk of redundancy, I’ll repeat one comment I made at that time.

The Christians of the Middle East have had a rough go for the 1300-some years since the Arab invasions, but

• we survived the Ommiyads
• we survived the Abbasids
• we survived the Fatamids
• we survived the Seljuks
• we survived the Ottomans

albeit with scars from each and every one of those overlords.

And now the descendants of those same invaders are hell-bent on doing what their forebearers were unable to accomplish, thanks in large measure to the misguided destabilization set into motion in 2003 in Iraq which has affected native Christians across the Middle East. While there is, unfortunately, no S Louis (Louis IX) to lead the resistance now, by the grace and power of God we will survive this onslaught too

 

[Alexander_Roman]

He wasn’t decapitated, but he was murdered by his classmates after refusing to cover up his cross tattoo after having been ordered to do so by his Muslim teacher. The beating began in the classroom proper (encouraged by the teacher, who nearly physically choked the boy), and continued when Ayman fled the classroom. By the time an ambulance arrived to take him from the school grounds, he was dead from the beating.

Martyr for Christ, Ayman Nabil Labib, pray for us before the Lord that He may deliver His persecuted believers from the hands of their oppressors, and comfort and protect all who are left behind to mourn in the wake of these terrible incidents.

I had read that they were trying to take off his head - a sickening story in any event and that one truly is a martyr for Christ.

Alex

 

[dcointin]

“When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.”

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The difference is that Arius, was, well, Arius. He has plagued the Church for thousands of years and continues to this very day, always popping up at important historical junctures - Unitarianism which became liberal Christianity, Jehovah’s Witnessism, so on. Only Gnosticism has been more pervasive (Scientology, New Age, Christian Science, Mormonism, Kabbalah).

You raise a critically important point - that the heresies of old have NOT disappeared and keep on going in various forms.

At the same time, modern folk who consciously adopt these views often adopt them in an erroneous way. For example, those who fancy themselves to be Arians or their modern descendants, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses really are not. There were three types of Arianism, all of which actually worshipped Christ, even though they did not accept Him as equal to God the Father or a creation etc. They never accepted that Christ was only a Man - He was, in their view, “more than man but less than God” with variations in this.

And the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have Arian saints in their calendars today, including St Nicetas the Goth, St Sabbas the Goth and the like.

The Apostle to the Goths (as the Catholic Church herself calls him), Wulfila, was assisted in his missionary efforts by St Nicetas the Goth (who was probably baptized by Wulfila). Wulfila was more concerned with converting Goths to Christ than he was with the Christological controversies of his day (he lived in Constantinople in a completely Arian atmosphere prior to his missionary work of translating the Bible into the Gothic language, using the alphabet he created for them).

Wulfila was locally venerated as a saint by Arians and then by Catholics in what is today Trishtov in Bulgaria in Roman Moesia. His basilica is named in his honour by his name in Latin, “Saint Lupus.”

Believe it or not . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

“Expected” could have some different meanings…that is the ideal, yes, and we are certainly encouraged to pray the hours as often as we can, and it seems like Prime and Compline are pretty standard, as I have several Agpeyas, including one that has only these two hours and pocket-sized, meant to be carried everywhere; depending on when I’m out and about on a particular day, I’ll take this one with me (as it is less bulky than my full one, not hardcover).

Well, I still think your Agpeya tradition is magnificent! I had a neighbour who told me he did the full seven Hours and even went to bed early to get up for the Midnight Hour.

I must say that your Midnight Hour is something I find spectacularly inspiring - especially how it is divided into three “Watches” to commemorate the three times our Lord returned to prayer in the Garden on the night before His Passion.

Is there an online source for Coptic neck crosses/matabs and the like?

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Absolutely! The Copts are not monophysite, despite how they may have been described in the past. I invite Marduk to comment further on Coptic Christology since it’s out of my area of expertise, but I consider the Copts completely orthodox. Completely.

Please don’t tell anyone, but I have an icon of St Dioscoros written on papyrus . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

It is actually very dubious if Dioscorus ordered the attack or personally attacked Flavian. If anything, it would probably have been Barsumas’ work.

Mar Barsaumo is also a saint of theirs . . .

 

[dcointin]

Please don’t tell anyone, but I have an icon of St Dioscoros written on papyrus . . .

Alex

I’d love to hear what kinds of rare or unusual icons and other items you’ve collected!