Ripped curtain

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Porpoise skin?!

Where did that come from?
Ha ha ha… I should have known someone would call me on that. I know that it is just too crazy to let it pass. Yeah, porpoise. I didn’t make it up. The Hebrew word is tachash which has an uncertain translation.

Maybe sea cows, or badgers, or fine leather… take your pick… hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/218/what-is-the-translation-philosophy-for-tachash-skins-in-exodus

Strongs says it is porpoise… biblehub.com/hebrew/8476.htm

Some Rabbi’s say it is blue goatskin or giraffe… jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/the-land-of-israel/the-temple/?p=2400

Anyway, I didn’t make it up. Dig around for it on Google. The source could have been harbor seals or dolphins from the Red Sea. Whatever it was, I’ll bet it was special and rare. Please don’t blame me. 😉

-Tim-
 
When the curtain of the sanctuary was torn from top to bottom, it meant that Jesus went out into the whole world. He no longer was the sole God of the Jews, but left the sanctuary to be with everyone.

mennoniteinfoctr.com/tabernacle.asp
 
You are absolutely right here.

The curtain represents the old covenant, old laws and old forms of worship. It was “ripped” or “torn” violently meaning that the old forms were forcibly taken away. John the Baptist gave the last warning about this saying, “bear fruit for repentance” and “even now the axe lies at the foot of the tree.” It was a final warning to repent.

Many want to ascribe various meanings to the whore of Babylon but a good understanding of Jewish imagery and politics at the time makes it pretty clear that the whore John writes about were the temple authorities.

-Tim-
I have even noticed that the “bride” loves the “king of kings” Jesus, whereas the “whore” loves several other kings, in the book of Revelation

This resembles the old Israel that didn’t love their God and the new and true Israel that loves God.
 
*The more I follow the online discussions … the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, it’s more than that. It’s a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.
  • Fr. Gregory Jensen*
Well…

Thomas Aquinas had a related
revelation too…Don’t we all …What may be more important is that we “are talking”…

Jest think…maybe it could even advance to praying together…maybe even getting different sects from Abraham to meet…let us say…in response to a papal invitation…???

Well anyway…Did the curtain contain Gold Threads?:blessyou:
 
A lot of attempts to explain this, some good and some not so good. As others have pointed out, the veil covered the entrance where only the priest would enter.

Jesus, the high priest, God in the veil of flesh, had been pierced. God is Truth. The temple was the dwelling place of God on earth. The veil symbolized the separation of man from God (Man separated from Truth by sin).

Upon Jesus’ death, the veil was rent from top to bottom as a sign that the Truth was now revealed, that the sign of Jonah was being given, that the fulfillment of the Law was at hand.

At least one other points out that this was to symbolize the end of the priestly order, the end of the Law, but this is simply not true at all. God’s Law is eternal, and Jesus did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. He is the High Priest, the Lamb of God, the Bread of Life, the Word of God, the Truth, the Light, the Law Giver. He makes the Law whole.

So this is the primary reason that the veil was rent from top to bottom: To show that by his death and resurrection, through His body and blood (bread and wine), by the tree of life (the cross), through him alone does fallen man now have access to God, to the Truth, to forgiveness of sin, to sanctifying grace.

As with other things in the bible, something so simple as a veil being torn has so much meaning and depth to it that it is hard to explain fully in a simple forum post. It requires a lot of meditation and studying to understand it more. Hopefully my explanation can get you going in the right direction.
 
How wonderful to have such simple examples…and signs…

Divine Simplicity?

Still curious whether the inner veil would have had any Gold Threads anywhere in the weave?

May God Continue to Bless…
 
Does anyone know if any extra-biblical sources confirm that the veil was actually ever torn top to bottom?
 
…Then Is It Unlucky to Kill a Porpoise?
I guess that perhaps that might eliminate a brocade or any gold threads in the curtain …
…I am not sure Google has only true facts available…
.
“Forty years before the Temple was destroyed the gates of the Hekel opened by themselves…”:hmmm:
 
=Richard_Feynman;We all know that the curtain tore that led to the Holy of Holies. Can someone explain what that meant from a Catholic perspective? Even the Protestants I speak to can’t seem to agree on what it means (among other disagreements.)
Thank you for your responses. I would really love to find out because it seems like a highly debated topic among the people I’ve spoken to (mostly Protestants, but shouldn’t everyone believe the same thing regarding this?)
Richard Feynman
The “Holy Of Holies” was a sectioned of SPECIAL place where originally, the Ark of the Covenant was kept.
Access as limited to the High Priest alone; and then ONLY once a year on “Yom Kipper” the “DAY OF ATTONEMENT. It was thought to hold the Divine Presence of “G-D”.
So when the Jews as a “People” Crucified Christ for the sins of ALL MANKIND; the Divine Presence Removed Himself from their midst, as signified by the TOREN Curtain of separation. The Current Temples maintains a Holy of Holies even though the Ark of the Covenant is missing.
Jewish People who still practice Judaism [they struggle just as we Catholics and Christians do with membership issues], STILL hold this Hold to a Divine Presence in this reserved area.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_of_Holies “Traditional Judaism regards the location where the inner sanctuary was originally located, on the Temple Mount in Mount Moriah, as retaining some or all of its original sanctity for use in a future Third Temple. The exact location of the Kodesh Hakodashim is a subject of dispute.

Traditional Judaism regards the Holy of Holies as the place where the presence of God dwells. TheTalmud gives detailed descriptions of Temple architecture and layout. According Babylonian Talmud Tractate Yoma, the Kodesh Hakodashim is located in the center North-South but significantly to the West from an East-West perspective, with all the major courtyards and functional areas lying to its east.

The Talmud supplies additional details, and describes the ritual performed by the High Priest. During the ritual, the High Priest would pronounce the Tetragrammaton, the only point according to traditional Judaism that it was pronounced out loud. According to Jewish tradition, the people prostrated themselves fully on the ground when it was said.”

Shalom
Patrick
 
The “Holy Of Holies” was a sectioned of SPECIAL place where originally, the Ark of the Covenant was kept.
Access as limited to the High Priest alone; and then ONLY once a year on “Yom Kipper” the “DAY OF ATTONEMENT. It was thought to hold the Divine Presence of “G-D”.
So when the Jews as a “People” Crucified Christ for the sins of ALL MANKIND; the Divine Presence Removed Himself from their midst, as signified by the TOREN Curtain of separation. The Current Temples maintains a Holy of Holies even though the Ark of the Covenant is missing.
Jewish People who still practice Judaism [they struggle just as we Catholics and Christians do with membership issues], STILL hold this Hold to a Divine Presence in this reserved area.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_of_Holies “Traditional Judaism regards the location where the inner sanctuary was originally located, on the Temple Mount in Mount Moriah, as retaining some or all of its original sanctity for use in a future Third Temple. The exact location of the Kodesh Hakodashim is a subject of dispute.

Traditional Judaism regards the Holy of Holies as the place where the presence of God dwells. TheTalmud gives detailed descriptions of Temple architecture and layout. According Babylonian Talmud Tractate Yoma, the Kodesh Hakodashim is located in the center North-South but significantly to the West from an East-West perspective, with all the major courtyards and functional areas lying to its east.

The Talmud supplies additional details, and describes the ritual performed by the High Priest. During the ritual, the High Priest would pronounce the Tetragrammaton, the only point according to traditional Judaism that it was pronounced out loud. According to Jewish tradition, the people prostrated themselves fully on the ground when it was said.”

Shalom
Patrick
This is very thought provoking! If I can comment and ask about something you said… God removed Himself from our presence because the whole world’s sins were atoned for. He never truly removed himself. He kept himself in our Presence in a more open, visible manner. Through the Eucharist! You can see how your line of thinking is rather unique to me. This is really cool! Would you say I’m accurate? That when God removed Himself, he didn’t truly remove himself, he just revealed himself in a new way?
 
=Richard_Feynman;12125039]This is very thought provoking! If I can comment and ask about something you said… God removed Himself from our presence because the whole world’s sins were atoned for. He never truly removed himself. He kept himself in our Presence in a more open, visible manner. Through the Eucharist! You can see how your line of thinking is rather unique to me. This is really cool! Would you say I’m accurate? That when God removed Himself, he didn’t truly remove himself, he just revealed himself in a new way?
Hi Richard,

When I noted sin causes God to in a sense PULL BACK from us, and Mortal sin actually Severs one’s relationship with the Lord; it is in a person by person basis [the sinners only]; it is NOT from His Church or His Flock who remain in the Sate of God’s Grace. [Without unconfessed/ unforgiven Mortal sins]👍

Hope that clarifies it for you? If Not please let me know and I’ll try again.

I’m going to be traveling a bit so it may take some time to get back to you.

God Bless,
Pareick
 
Hi Richard,

When I noted sin causes God to in a sense PULL BACK from us, and Mortal sin actually Severs one’s relationship with the Lord; it is in a person by person basis [the sinners only]; it is NOT from His Church or His Flock who remain in the Sate of God’s Grace. [Without unconfessed/ unforgiven Mortal sins]👍

Hope that clarifies it for you? If Not please let me know and I’ll try again.

I’m going to be traveling a bit so it may take some time to get back to you.

God Bless,
Pareick
Yes, it does clarify. Thank you! 🙂
 
The veil that was torn was the huge one that covered the entrance of the holy Place. This was visible to all. It was some 80 feet high and was about 20? ft wide. Josephus records this.

The curtain was torn in two by the earthquake that happened the day Jesus was crucified. This curtain was so heavy it took about 200 priests to hang it. The earthquake that day broke the massive stone lintel that supported the veil in two. When it fell it tore the curtain. The curtain was a symbol of the body of Jesus.

Contrary to popular teaching today it WAS NOT the veil that covered the entrance of the Holy of Holies. The veil that covered the Holy of Holies was about 40 foot square and there was not one curtain but rather two hung side by side. (A temple cubit was about 24")

The first veil or curtain was anchored on the right side of the sanctuary and it was tied back on the left side. There was one cubit of space (24") between the two veils. The inner veil was anchored on the left side and tied back on the right side. So the priest would enter on the left side and walk (probably by sidestepping) across to the right between the two veils and then he would enter where the veil was tied back on the right. He made a zig zag entrance into the Holy of Holies. If this is the veil that was torn then how did it get torn and which one of the two was it - or was it both?

And technically the priest was not the only one to enter the Holy of Holies. Every seven years a maintenance crew was lowered from an identical room above the Holy of Holies via several wooden elevators down into it. These elevators faced the wall. All of the walls of the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place was covered with gold plate.
 
Ha ha ha… I should have known someone would call me on that. I know that it is just too crazy to let it pass. Yeah, porpoise. I didn’t make it up. The Hebrew word is tachash which has an uncertain translation.

Maybe sea cows, or badgers, or fine leather… take your pick… hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/218/what-is-the-translation-philosophy-for-tachash-skins-in-exodus

Strongs says it is porpoise… biblehub.com/hebrew/8476.htm

Some Rabbi’s say it is blue goatskin or giraffe… jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/the-land-of-israel/the-temple/?p=2400

Anyway, I didn’t make it up. Dig around for it on Google. The source could have been harbor seals or dolphins from the Red Sea. Whatever it was, I’ll bet it was special and rare. Please don’t blame me. 😉

-Tim-
On this point of “porpoise” – The alternate to looking this up in Strong’s is to check the english translation of the Septuagint, to see how the Jews rendered that word when they translated the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek. The version of the Septuagint that I have is contained in The Orthodox Study Bible

see here: amazon.com/Orthodox-Study-Bible-Ancient-Christianity/dp/0718003594/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404479911&sr=1-1&keywords=the+orthodox+study+bible

where when the word indicates anything it is not porpoise but rams’ skins.

The Orthodox Church (this volume explains) never decided on an official list of books of the Bible (and so this volume has even a couple more books than the Catholic Bible, and aside from its differing numbering of the Psalms, it still ends up with 151 psalms; that last psalm is about David’s victory over Goliath.)
 
I think I have skimmed too quickly over these posts, perhaps I’m repeating some comment here:

The thing to recall about the Jerusalem temple is that it did not contain the ark of the covenant, including the contents – the tablets of the covenant, the saved jar of manna, and Aaron’s rod.

The Holy of Holies (HOH) was thus empty. This seems to add some drama to the rending of the veil, whichever it was, to underscore the fact that the temple “sanctuary” was empty. The whole point of which was that THIS was the dwelling place of God – but no longer.

I have about 20 Jewish scripture commentaries, so I cannot recall where I saw this, but there was a discussion of how sacred the Jews considered the space to be, even lacking its main contents that it was storing and protecting.
 
The Temple was leveled by the Romans in A.D. 70.

I would not trust any sources other than Josephus and Philo on what it looked like and its decorations, holdings, and things of that nature.

Both men saw it first-hand, and Josephus was educated and trained there.
 
=Richard_Feynman;12132142]Yes, it does clarify. Thank you! 🙂
Your entirely welcome!

Sorry for the delay. we’ve been traveling

God Bless,
Patrick
 
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