Rites being used for worship during Holy Father's USA visit

[Indyann]

Hereis the complete schedule for the trip from the Vatican Website.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2008/documents/trav_ben-xvi_usa-program_20080415_en.html

 

[JReducation]

Benedict

The music, reading and the choreography of the liturgy are actually sent to the Vatican for approval by the papal master of ceremonies. They actually do listen to the music, examine the readings and choreography very carefully.

It is their job to make sure that there are no surprises that may embarass the Pope. They also want to make sure that the liturgy reflects the mission of the visit.

Yes, he will meet with some seminarians and students, but as I understand from reading in the Catholic press, these will be short visits.

The major events seem to be the two public masses, the prayer service, the meeting with the non Catholics, meeting with the leadership of the Bishop’s Conference, the meeting with the President (which I believe is about 45 min, don’t take that to the bank) and the speech at the UN.

The details of the liturgy are not only scrutinized by the master of ceremonies, but also by the Congregation on Liturgy.

If they approved it, it is orthodox. You can trust their wisdom and their knowledge of good liturgy.

Of course, all of us have preferences. But there is no way to satisfy every preference. I can’t imagine how that would be possible. The best they can do is to make sure that the liturgy is orthodox.

JR

 

[Indyann]

The message. Sounds both pastoral and diplomatic.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/pont-messages/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20080408_people-usa_en.html

 

[anamchara]

The only time that he has set aside for the laity are the two masses, the visit to the Jewish temple and the ecumenical service. The ecumenical service has a diplomatic goal. He wants to make sure that the Jewish and Catholic people understand that the new form of the prayer for the Jews on Good Friday is not a rejection of the Jews or a return to a prior age when there was antagonism between the two faiths. He wants Catholics and Jews to know that we are still united, not just be ecumenism, but by heritage, faith and prayer.

Amen and God Bless him.

 

[JReducation]

Hereis the complete schedule for the trip from the Vatican Website.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/travels/2008/documents/trav_ben-xvi_usa-program_20080415_en.html

Thanks for this valuable information Indy

This is the way that I understood the visit from my own diocese.

If everyone notices, he is spending very little time with the laity, the two masses and some short encounters not lasting more than 15 or 20 minutes.

The longer periods of time are dedicated to the bishops, the President, the United Nations, the non-Catholic communities and the religious.

There is a lot of time with the bishops.

A pastoral visit has much more time built into it for the laity. His visit to World Youth Day has him scheduled to spend very little time with the bishops and most of his time with the youth and youth ministers.

This is definitely a different kind of visit from what we became used to with John Paul.

However, this does not rule out a pastoral visit for the laity in the future.

The Pope can’t be in so many places at one time. It’s just not possible.

Just by the fact that he is the Shepherd of the Church, all papal visits are pastoral. When we use the term pastoral in this context, we mean that it’s not a visit that focuses as much on the laity as does a World Youth Day or a vist to a smaller diocese, such as when the Pope visited Denver and Baltimore. In those visits the Pope really wanted to spend time with the people of those dioceses.

These are not visits to the people of the dioceses of Washington and New York. That’s what we mean by “not pastoral”.

Again, a visit by the universal shepherd is pastoral, even if he only meets with the bishops. His interest is the Church, not just the bishops.

I’m not sure if that’s clearer. But I tried.

JR

JR

 

[Indyann]

Thanks for this valuable information Indy

This is the way that I understood the visit from my own diocese.

If everyone notices, he is spending very little time with the laity, the two masses and some short encounters not lasting more than 15 or 20 minutes.

The longer periods of time are dedicated to the bishops, the President, the United Nations, the non-Catholic communities and the religious.

There is a lot of time with the bishops.

A pastoral visit has much more time built into it for the laity. His visit to World Youth Day has him scheduled to spend very little time with the bishops and most of his time with the youth and youth ministers.

This is definitely a different kind of visit from what we became used to with John Paul.

However, this does not rule out a pastoral visit for the laity in the future.

The Pope can’t be in so many places at one time. It’s just not possible.

JR

Well somebody better let the mass media know. I have read several articles from different newspapers and they all refer to it as a “pastoral visit”.

The Pope refers to it as an “apostolic visit”

VIDEO-MESSAGE OF THE HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI
TO CATHOLICS AND PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
ON THE OCCASION OF THE UPCOMING APOSTOLIC JOURNEY

Dear Brothers and Sisters in the United States of America,

The grace and peace of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you! In just a few days from now, I shall begin my apostolic visit to your beloved country. Before setting off, I would like to offer you a heartfelt greeting and an invitation to prayer. As you know, I shall only be able to visit two cities: Washington and New York. The intention behind my visit, though, is to reach out spiritually to all Catholics in the United States. At the same time, I earnestly hope that my presence among you will be seen as a fraternal gesture towards every ecclesial community, and a sign of friendship for members of other religious traditions and all men and women of good will.

 

[dbacks5439]

I just got back from a week-end retreat. The monk who gave us our talk, is a fan of Pope Benedict XVI, which was a surprise for me. This monk usually leans towards the left on issues. Anyway, he spoke about the Pope’s message of how the “church” according to the Pope’s encyclical he handed us, is the “world.” He showed where the Pope says that Jesus died for “all” people.

I found this so contradictory from what trads in this forum, who are big fans of Pope Benedict have posted. From their post, I got the impression that Pope Benedict XVI, was going to do away with Vatican II, the Novus Ordo and guitar free and anything other than Gregorian Chant, at Mass. From what the monk correctly showed, the opposite is the case, when it comes to Pope Benedict. Apparently, Pope Benedict is more liberal than what the media and neo-Catholics make him out to be.

The monk’s conference impressed me enough, that I ran down to the monastery book store and purchased a book by Pope Benedict XVI.

Jim

Nope, sorry but the monk is mistaken. Perhaps he, like others, try to find loopholes in Pope Benedict’s documents? This is just a monk we’re talking about. Did he give credibility?

No traditionalist will tell you that Pope Benedict’s goal is to make it so that Vat. II never happened. What he is doing is correcting the modernists who think that Vat. II was a tabula rasa, when in reality it is a continuation of 2,000 years of Tradition. The NO, guitar music, and versus populum Mass are the things that break away from the Council. In fact, if you have read His Holiness’ homily at the Easter Vigil, you will see a strong indication that Pope Benedict strongly advises that we should refocus our attention to God and go back to ad orientem worship. Plus, his replacing of the Vatican’s choir director is another indication of Benedict’s reform of the reform.

You have to ask yourself whenever you see something going on during Mass. “Did the Council really call for this?” Fortunately, my generation is asking this question as we investigate what the Council really called for. For example, Sacrosanctum Concilium, Art. 36 specifically says that Latin is to be preserved in the Latin rites. I go to a NO, and no Latin. So how are we being faithful to the Council in this matter?

If people say you should jump off a bridge “in the spirit of Vat. II”, would you do it?

 

[JReducation]

The message. Sounds both pastoral and diplomatic.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/pont-messages/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20080408_people-usa_en.html

Thanks Indy. This is the short speech that they had on EWTN. I took a clipping from the entire message, because it really summarizes the intention of his visit.

The intention behind my visit, though, is to reach out spiritually to all Catholics in the United States. At the same time, I earnestly hope that my presence among you will be seen as a fraternal gesture towards every ecclesial community, and a sign of friendship for members of other religious traditions and all men and women of good will.

It is different from a pastoral visit (again keeping in mind that he is the shepherd, therefore there is not way that you can exlude the pastoral altogether). He begins by calling it an “apostolic visit”.

This term is usually reserved for a visit made with a specific mission in mind, not just coming to spend time with us. He has an agenda other than just coming to pray with our youth or the general population.

What that mission is, we have to wait and listen.

JR

 

[JReducation]

JReduction talks about having planned music and liturgies, including working with those on a papal Mass (JPII, I’m assuming). The Liturgical Office of the Supreme Pontiff relies, on good faith, on the folks at the local level planning the music. However, they may or may not hear the pieces until the acual liturgy begins.

Let me clarify any misunderstanding. I was working for a diocese when John Paul came on one of his many visits. I did not collaborate on planning the liturgy. I’m not a liturgist. My areas are Mystical Theology and Philosophy. I deal in the spiritual life of people, not the liturgy.

As to the Liturgical office, as someone posted, Msgr. said that he liked it. This means that he saw and heard it. Which is what they usually do.

I understand what you’re saying about what the Pope wrote about sacred music both as Cardinal and as Pope. But, what he comments on does not become the law of the liturgy unless he gives it to the Congregation of the Liturgy to make it happen. Otherwise, they remain his commentaries.

For example, when he wrote the Motu Propio, he gave that to the Congregatioin of the Liturgy for them to make it happen and they did.

We have to understand the difference between commentary and law. They’re not the same. A pope can reflect on something, but never insist that it become part of the the law of the Church. These are for the benefit of the faithful to encourage their spiritual growth, without imposing a legal requirement that they be followed.

I like to think of them as exhortations.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Nope, sorry but the monk is mistaken. Perhaps he, like others, try to find loopholes in Pope Benedict’s documents? This is just a monk we’re talking about. Did he give credibility?

Everything in your post can be accepted as a valid point for dialogue except the above.

I’m not sure if you meant it to come across this way or not. But you may want to rethink the way this sounds.

First, you’re saying that you know better than a religious in a monastic community, particulargy a community who gave us the liturgical tradition that we call the Tridentine form. Don’t forget that the Tridentine form is rooted in Benedictine spirituality and practices in their monasteries long before it became the form for the universal Church. These monks have been the preservers, teachers, protectors and major liturgists in the Church for almost 1800 years.

You ask about credibility, I would have to give a great deal of credibility to a Benedictine monk. If anyone knows good liturgy it’s them. This is their entire life. That’s what they do for the Church. They celebrate liturgy around the clock, 24/7 for more than 1800 years.

Second, you’re insinuating that this man is looking for loopholes and not giving credit that he belongs to one of the most educated orders of religioius in the Church and that they understand these documents better than the average lay person. So it’s really up to you to prove that you have more knowledge than their collective knowledge of the centuries and as a community. Monastic communities do not have to prove themselves to us. They have more than proven their value to the Church. They preserved culture, liturgy, spirituality, scripture, language, science, art, education, healthcare, the writings of the Fathers of the Church, they even organized the canon of the scriptures that you and I follow.

Third, you say “This is just a monk.” Do you realize that the Church theology teaches that monastic life (monks and cloistered nuns) live the most perfect form of the Gospel. To say this is just a monk, sounds like what Henry VIII said when he wanted to justify taking their property and their influence in the English Church. By reducing them before the eyes of the laity, Henry managed to do what he wanted without much resistence.

I would never dare say that someone who lives what the Church calls the highest expression of the Gospel is just a monk.

A monk has a very special place in among the faithful, much higher than that of any secular man or woman, even a secular priest. He is a religious in solemn vows, which is a very special form of consecrated life. Why do you think that the Holy Father is having a special mass only with monastic religious? He recognizes their special place in the msytical body.

Please reconsider your statement.

As to the rest of what you said, it’s good material for discussion, as it is not offensive or minimize a way of life that is essential to the life of the Church. Yes, the Church says that monastic life is a special and essential gift to its life.

JR

 

[anamchara]

I understand what you’re saying about what the Pope wrote about sacred music both as Cardinal and as Pope. But, what he comments on does not become the law of the liturgy unless he gives it to the Congregation of the Liturgy to make it happen. Otherwise, they remain his commentaries.

JR

exactly…and this keeps being repeated

 

[Spiller]

We are content to give God second-best, as was Cain; Abel, on the other hand, gave God the best of what he had. He gave his all, his finest. Those of us who believe that God deserves better get chastised in this threads simply because we believe, and the writings of the Holy Father, when he was Joseph Ratzinger, are indicative of this, that the current state of liturgical music is second-rate.

Per who? You and your personal opinion or your personal interpretation of what the Pope deserves/wants but in your opinion is not going to receive?

Msgr. Marini is there to ensure that none of the weird stuff that his predecessor allowed to creep in will show up at these Papal Masses. However, when it comes to the musical selection, he was probably acting on good faith. I suspect that once the music is actually played, there will be some words said behind the scenes, especially if someone tells His Holiness that this is the banal type of music that is played in churches week after week.

No way. Absolutely no way. These Masses and indeed all of his appearances in the US are far too critical to leave to “good faith.” The potential good and/or bad from this trip is mind-boggling. This Pope and his team have shown time and time again that they sweat the details. Any trip – but particularly a trip to the USA is going to be scrutinized big-time. I would go so far to say as the Pope himself gave the final nod to this package.

Furthermore, the Mass, the liturgy, if you will, is the chief cornerstone of the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. Throughout his years as a cardinal, the Holy Father wrote extensively and emphatically on the proper celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, inclusive of appropriate and proper sacred music.

Exactly! And?

What these selections are saying, as someone else in another forum eloquently stated, is that DC has effectively told the Holy Father that his cause is not their cause.

Again, per your personal opinion! I really don’t believe those who chose the music thought to themselves “this stuff is absolute garbage but we’ll really rock the boat and make the Pope look bad by programming it!”

Have you ever considered for a moment that your personal tastes might not be the best way to go for this trip and that those in charge know what they are doing and do so with the best of intentions?

 

[Spiller]

So then, if you say that I shouldn’t post or express my opinions, then, what is the purpose of these forums? Many people are certainly not shy about expressing their support for the banal and insipid, especially when it comes to music. Those of us who do make a stand to defend and promote legitimate sacred music, as defined by the Holy Father in Sacramentum Caritatis, are met with rolling eyes, sarcasm and insulting commentary.

Just look how you post your comments. As if you are the only person that gets it; as if the Pope and his staff are a bunch of patsies just waiting to be embarrassed; and as if there is some vast conspiracy out to embarrass him. C’mon…

These concerns that I raise are legitimate and quite appropriate. It also shows that collectively, we don’t have a very good understanding of what sacred music means. As I said earlier, perhaps this is a blessing in disguise because it will allow the Holy Father to see first-hand the banal and trite music that many of us must endure during the Mass.

Again, so you know better than everyone else – including the experts – including I’m sure, the Pope himself? I suspect this entire trip has been programmed down to the micrometer. Even this package on Vatican’s website and the Pope’s little speech on EWTN shows remarkably deft and detailed planning.

It’s going to be a heck of a week.

 

[JReducation]

No way. Absolutely no way. These Masses and indeed all of his appearances in the US are far too critical to leave to “good faith.” The potential good and/or bad from this trip is mind-boggling. This Pope and his team have shown time and time again that they sweat the details. Any trip – but particularly a trip to the USA is going to be scrutinized big-time. I would go so far to say as the Pope himself gave the final nod to this package.

Anytime that the Holy Father celebrates liturgy in public, all of the details are scanned under a microscope to ensure that it’s not a disaster than comes back to bite the Church in the end. There are committees at the host country and at the Vatican who do nothing else but this. If there are any questions, they are taken to the Congregation on the Liturgy who gives everything the final blessing.

As I have said at least five times. The Popes writings on sacred music have not been given over to the Congregation on the Liturgy to be enforced as law. They remain his commentaries. The Congregation on the Liturgy is free to take whatever they see as prudent from those comments, until such time that His Holiness mandates that they do such and such.

You are right, but not just about the visit to the USA, but to any place in public, even the Vatican.

The only time when the Pope allows himself some spontaneity is when his among theologians and scholars. Everyone remembers what happened after his visit to his former colleagues at the university in Germany. He ended up having to call the Muslims to a meeting at the Vatican. That was not a papal statement per se. He was speaking as one of the guys, from a theologian to a group of his colleagues.

those in charge know what they are doing and do so with the best of intentions?

I have seen this machinery in action. I have not been part of the machinery. Please be clear on that. The team is composed of very intelligent people: bishops, liturgists. canonists, choreographers, the nuncio, and if needed they call in experts in culture, political science, linguists, ecumenism, theologians.

The usual team is composed of the host bishop or his vicar, several liturgists, music ministers, choreographers, the nuncio and anyone else whom they feel can help.

This is sent back to the Vatican with every detail, even recordings of the music and is again scrutinized there by another committee. This takes months.

Everything is put together to flow harmoniously with the theme of the visit, not just slapped together.

Prior to that, the Pope and several bishops from the host country discuss the appropriate theme for visit, because this guides the preparation of the liturgy.

By the time the Pope arrives everyone who works at a diocesan office has aged at least five years, even the receptionists. LOL

JR

 

[JReducation]

By the way . . .

Has anyone realized the the title of this thread is incorrect?

For a group of people who want to get the liturgy right for this visit, we certainly messed up on the title of this thread.

The Rite the Pope will use is the Latin Rite. He is coming to a country where the Latin Rite is dominant.

The discussion here seems to be around the music being used, not the rite or even the form.

We have no idea if he’s going to use the EF or OF, whether it’s going to be iin Enlgish only or multi-lingual or Of in Latin. My guess is that it will be multi-lingual as he does in the Vatican. It will probably include Latin and a lot of Spanish.

It is interesting that writing an anticipatory remark about his visit to the USA, his concludes in Spanish and English.

Not only that, but his final blessing in Spanish is longer than his blessing in English. It’s not the same blessing. It’s a very traditional Spanish blessing normally used in Spanish speaking countries in South America and the Caribbean.

I thought that was interesting.

JR

 

[anamchara]

We have no idea if he’s going to use the EF or OF, whether it’s going to be iin Enlgish only or multi-lingual or Of in Latin. My guess is that it will be multi-lingual as he does in the Vatican. It will probably include Latin and a lot of Spanish.

It is interesting that writing an anticipatory remark about his visit to the USA, his concludes in Spanish and English.

Not only that, but his final blessing in Spanish is longer than his blessing in English. It’s not the same blessing. It’s a very traditional Spanish blessing normally used in Spanish speaking countries in South America and the Caribbean.

JR

JR, if you go back to the OP and click on the link, you can read what the Mass is going to be. It looks like it’s going to be in English.

 

[frommi]

Actually, the problem is that, as someone in another forum noted, we tend to suffer greatly from the Cain and Abel syndrom, at least as far as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is concerned. Your sarcasm and eye-rolling make the point all the more evident.

We are content to give God second-best, as was Cain; Abel, on the other hand, gave God the best of what he had. He gave his all, his finest. Those of us who believe that God deserves better get chastised in this threads simply because we believe, and the writings of the Holy Father, when he was Joseph Ratzinger, are indicative of this, that the current state of liturgical music is second-rate.

Msgr. Marini is there to ensure that none of the weird stuff that his predecessor allowed to creep in will show up at these Papal Masses. However, when it comes to the musical selection, he was probably acting on good faith. I suspect that once the music is actually played, there will be some words said behind the scenes, especially if someone tells His Holiness that this is the banal type of music that is played in churches week after week.

Furthermore, the Mass, the liturgy, if you will, is the chief cornerstone of the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. Throughout his years as a cardinal, the Holy Father wrote extensively and emphatically on the proper celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, inclusive of appropriate and proper sacred music.

What these selections are saying, as someone else in another forum eloquently stated, is that DC has effectively told the Holy Father that his cause is not their cause.

So.you’re assuming Msgr. Marini is just blissfully unaware of the horrible music he is subjecting the holy father too? lol

Would your opinion change if indeed he approved it? I suppose not…you’d come up with another excuse.

It is troubling that you are calling the musical selections ‘second best’. I’d be willing to bet that the composers who created the selections did not feel they were giving God anything but their best in making them.

Pope Benedict is right, one song is not as good as another…but that doesn’t mean that something written before 1960 is automatically better than something written after 1960.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Why not choose a traditional mass setting like Mass of Angels?
God forbid we have a true Catholic sounding mass.

At least he’ll get to experience, first-hand, the awful liturgical music that many of us have to endure Sunday after Sunday. Of all of the Mass settings, why the DC folks chose Mass of Creation is beyond me. The “Community Mass” setting in red Worship III hymnal is much better; furthermore, there is also an alternative setting for the Memorial Acclamation that does not feature “Christ has died…”

At least the NYC Mass fares a little better as far as the music is concerned.

 

[japhy]

The Masses will be multi-lingual. Over the course of the Masses, there is a Kyrie, the Gloria Missa de Angelis, the Credo from Jubilate Deo, a simple tone of the Pater noster… it’s not devoid of Latin nor of Gregorian Chant.

 

[benedictgal]

Let me clarify any misunderstanding. I was working for a diocese when John Paul came on one of his many visits. I did not collaborate on planning the liturgy. I’m not a liturgist. My areas are Mystical Theology and Philosophy. I deal in the spiritual life of people, not the liturgy.

As to the Liturgical office, as someone posted, Msgr. said that he liked it. This means that he saw and heard it. Which is what they usually do.

I understand what you’re saying about what the Pope wrote about sacred music both as Cardinal and as Pope. But, what he comments on does not become the law of the liturgy unless he gives it to the Congregation of the Liturgy to make it happen. Otherwise, they remain his commentaries.

For example, when he wrote the Motu Propio, he gave that to the Congregatioin of the Liturgy for them to make it happen and they did.

We have to understand the difference between commentary and law. They’re not the same. A pope can reflect on something, but never insist that it become part of the the law of the Church. These are for the benefit of the faithful to encourage their spiritual growth, without imposing a legal requirement that they be followed.

I like to think of them as exhortations.

JR

JR, Msgr. Marini may not have heard the entire hymn selections, just snippets of the songs. Let me give you an example. When we planned the Mass to mark the erection of our new diocese and the installation of our first bishop, I met with the Ordinary-elect (by phone) and told him what the readings would be. He didn’t want to go into too much detail. Then, I went over the music. He said that whatever we had picked was fine with him. This was a big mistake because the music was sub-par. Iin fact, that has been the modus operendi for many, if not all, of our diocesan liturgies, which has been rather frustrating.

Thus, you cannot always assume that folks have carefully reviewed the entire thing. Whoever gave Msgr. Marini the music may have just told him that this represents “a cross-section of American liturgical music” and he may have just went along with it. He may also have heard a sampling of each song, but, I seriously doubt that he heard each one straight through.

Now, just for clarification, the Moto Propio was given to the Ecclesia Dei Commission, not necessarily to the CDWDS, since ED is the body overseeing the MP. As far as Sacramentum Caritatis is concerned, there are seminaries already taking to heart what the Holy Father has written and are upping the ante on making sure that future priests learn Latin.

Incidentally, Liturgicam Authenticam was supposed to be adhered to (and it was supposed to be the driving force) when the USCCB was formulating the new document on music. It was soundly ignored, thanks to folks like the FDLC and NPM.