Rituals

[hermit]

The catholic church is rich in rituals. How do we recognize rituals that have true spiritual values from those that are just rote?

** When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.**

 

[francisca]

If I go to Church, I will absorb things that are meaningful for me. The rest, inevitably, will “pass me by” because I cannot hold it in my memory nor it is useful for my everyday walk with God.

I read an information how important it is that Mass must be MEANINGFUL. So if something is too difficult to understand, I think we need to be more creative to make it easy to understand for the people.

Otherwise, just like the above story of “tying cat for meditation”, and what makes it more difficult is : if this ritual causes people to be afraid to “think” and affraid to “ask questions”. They become obediently passive in their thinking about God and take rules “as is” without question nor understanding about the meaning.

CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 4, 1963

III. The Reform of the Sacred Liturgy

1. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements SUBJECT TO CHANGE. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the INNER NATURE of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express MORE CLEARLY the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to UNDERTAND THEM WITH EASE and to TAKE PART in them fully, ACTIVELY, and as befits a community.

CHAPTER III

1. …It is therefore of THE HIGHEST IMPORTANCE that the faithful should EASILY UNDERSTAND the sacramental signs, and should frequent with great eagerness those sacraments which were instituted to nourish the Christian life.

[end of quote]

How can we worship a merciful God, yet we can’t be flexible about ritual rules ?

Is the ritual for the people, or the people for the ritual?

My charismatic leader used to get a “remark/ comment” (not from the priest, but from the people) that the songs we sang in the charismatic mass was “not liturgical”. Some of the songs came from the bible. And we made sure the songs were correctly chosen according to the liturgy. It’s just the songs were a little bit different in style and therefore they are not “liturgical” ?

I really have the same question with hermit here.

 

[puzzleannie]

You can tell which rituals are authentic and which are not by looking at the ritual books. For instance, what is necessary and efficacious in the Rite for Baptism is in the ritual book for the Rite of Baptism. What it prescribes, the matter and form of the sacrament, that is, the material things necessary, water, candle, chrism, white garment etc. and the words prescribed (exactly as written) are efficacious signs, symbols words and actions. When performed by a duly ordained and approved minister, they bring about in reality what the rite says: the baptized person dies to sin and is brought to new life in Jesus Christ, they are redeemed from the condition of original sin, made new and spotless, an indelible mark is placed on the soul, they are a child of God and so forth.

A spurious rite is an addition to, perversion of, or replacement of the prescribed rite of the Church with the personal preference of the priest, deacon, “liturgist”, cantor, DRE, catechist, lector or any other busy body who thinks there personal experience and preference is more reliable than 2000 years of Church teaching and doctrinal development and understanding.
Under this heading, see the forum Liturgy for various abuses.

The sacraments are the gift to us from Jesus Christ. He appointed apostles and their successors to determine the actual rituals and rites surrounding the sacraments, and the other rituals (such as blessings, prayers, liturgies etc.) that support and flow from the sacraments. The power of binding and loosing is about more than the forgiveness of sins, it is the power to ordain how the instructions of Christ are to be carried out at all times and places. It is a function of the magesterial authority of the Church, not of individual ministers, to establish and modify the rites and practices of the Church.

 

[francisca]

I’m sure that the liturgy is important, and is the gift of God, and the Church is rich in it.

But let us not forget one thing : that the liturgy is not The Highest Truth. The liturgy can change and it is designed and decided by authority according to needs. But what is the highest truth? It’s God, who FORGIVES and LOVE. This will not change forever.

God does not need any liturgy. Man needs liturgy. liturgy is for men to reach out to God. And the truth is : It is not man who reaches out to God, but God who reach out to man.

And again, liturgy is for men, not men for liturgy.

So if people are talking about liturgy as if the liturgy is the HIGHEST truth, this is incorrect. The moment we quarrel about it, it has become meaningless that instant. Because God we try to reach with THAT liturgy is God who forgives ALL tresspasses, moreover small mistakes in ritual.

Furthermore if some changes are made to help the people to understand and make the Word of God more alive such using dance, happier songs, drama etc, why not ? And more often these changes are made in accordance to guidance set by the Church with the priest permission. But I wonder why details can be more important than the whole mission and purpose ?

I think we have to be more open to the Holy Spirit guidance to make every Mass-- more than “a routine” – it has to be a living celebration, because it is a “thanks giving praise” for God who died for us on the cross and rose again to rise us up from the dead.

 

[jennstall]

francisca:

Furthermore if some changes are made to help the people to understand and make the Word of God more alive such using dance, happier songs, drama etc, why not ? And more often these changes are made in accordance to guidance set by the Church with the priest permission. But I wonder why details can be more important than the whole mission and purpose ?

Probably because those added details don’t make the Word of God more alive. They just add a note of the ridiculous to the proceedings.

francisca:

I think we have to be more open to the Holy Spirit guidance to make every Mass-- more than “a routine” – it has to be a living celebration, because it is a “thanks giving praise” for God who died for us on the cross and rose again to rise us up from the dead.

Hmmm. And possibly if people were more open to the Holy Spirit, they’d recognize when something is their own dumb idea. I have a hard time believing the Holy Spirit guided anyone to add circus clowns or liturgical dancers to the Mass.

 

[francisca]

jennstall:

Probably because those added details don’t make the Word of God more alive. They just add a note of the ridiculous to the proceedings.

Hmmm. And possibly if people were more open to the Holy Spirit, they’d recognize when something is their own dumb idea. I have a hard time believing the Holy Spirit guided anyone to add circus clowns or liturgical dancers to the Mass.

Could you tell me why is it “riddiculous dumb idea”? Or rather it is just your subjective taste and preference…

Make me understand “why”.

 

[jennstall]

francisca:

Could you tell me why is it “riddiculous dumb idea”? Or rather it is just your subjective taste and preference…

Make me understand “why”.

The Holy Spirit told me so it must be true. :tiphat:
Now here’s some questions for you:

Can you tell me how my subjective taste and preferences are my own and someone else’s derive from the Holy Spirit? Can you tell me how someone can be certain that their “guidance” or whatever you want to call it are coming from the Holy Spirit? Can you be certain that this so-called guidance isn’t simply an excuse for someone to validate their own subjective taste and preferences? Do you really think the reason that clowns and liturgical dancers are ridiculous and a travesty isn’t completely self-evident and you need it explained to you? Do you honestly trust the motivations of someone who would want to introduce these elements to the Holy Mass which is supposed to honor the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross? Do you think the Last Supper was fun and entertaining and resembled something like a Carnival with happy songs?

 

[francisca]

jennstall:

The Holy Spirit told me so it must be true. :tiphat:

You does not make any argumentation here.

Now here’s some questions for you:

Can you tell me how my subjective taste and preferences are my own and someone else’s derive from the Holy Spirit? Can you tell me how someone can be certain that their “guidance” or whatever you want to call it are coming from the Holy Spirit? Can you be certain that this so-called guidance isn’t simply an excuse for someone to validate their own subjective taste and preferences? Do you really think the reason that clowns and liturgical dancers are ridiculous and a travesty isn’t completely self-evident and you need it explained to you? Do you honestly trust the motivations of someone who would want to introduce these elements to the Holy Mass which is supposed to honor the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross? Do you think the Last Supper was fun and entertaining and resembled something like a Carnival with happy songs?

Why not liturgical dances and new songs, for example ? It is not stated in the rules as being “forbidden”.

The rule states that good arts are encouranged. And even more it says that “It is of the highest importance” that rituals must be “easy to understand” for the people. Why then not use our creativity to help the poeple to understand?

Preference to “oldies” (old songs and old ways) does not mean one has to say “no” to whatever is new.

Sure “good arts” is debatable. But we cannot be too negative about all new things in the Church. Because it is stated in the Bible that we have to sing new songs to the Lord. It says that God renews. God the Holy Spirit brings renewal to the Church.

I understand the position of authorities. I’m not agaist rules. Rules are facility, tools to put us in order… and that’s all. Rules are passive. Therefore God does not choose “methods” nor “rules”. Instead He choose “people”. Because “rules” depends on how we see them.

May God bless us all.

 

[francisca]

Another point I need to explain :

It is totally depend on us how we see the liturgy. We can see it as “rules” that bring us our righteousness, or, we can see it as a way of worshiping God who has become our righteousness (two choices for us : RULES observance as a source of our righteousness, or GOD as the source of our righteousness).

The bible tells us that God rules man with two staffs :

1. The Law (Old Covenant)
2. Loving kindness = Mercy = Grace (New Covenant).

It was prophesied that “The older shall serve the young”. The law is the older. It can’t control Mercy (The young = the New Covenant). God’s Mercy controls the Law. And it is true in all situation. We can’t be “just” by merely following the law, because the law is blind (I’m using secular term here). Man of mercy has to control it.

May God The Holy Spirit guide us all.

 

[jennstall]

francisca:

You does not make any argumentation here.

Correct. My tongue was firmly wedged in cheek.