Roadblock!!

[htk553]

Disclaimer: Please keep in mind that my questions are serious, but I do like to throw in some humor in my posts.

I have hit a snag in my pursuit to become Catholic. I am divorced and have since remarried. I was told from the start that I would need an annulment through the church. No big deal. It’s a small price to pay to become Catholic.

After RCIA class the other night, my sponsor gave me a form to fill out about my baptism (or lack of in my case) and about my civil divorce. Still, no big deal. My sponsor and my parish are aware that I wasn’t “trained” in any religion. So this part of the form will be easy to fill out.

This is the conversation between me and my sponsor:

Sponsor: We will need addresses/phone numbers of your family so they can vouch that you haven’t been baptized.

Me: Umm that’s gonna be a problem because both of my parent’s are dead and I am the elder in the family.

Sponsor: If we can’t get this information, we will have to have a formal tribunal hearing in order for you to become Catholic

Me: <------I actually made that face.

I start thinking to myself:

Is a hearing really necessary?
Why can’t the church just take my word for it?
Even if I was baptized, obviously I wasn’t aware of it and I didn’t get a “baptismal receipt” or a “thanks for baptizing with us” letter.

It would be helpful if churches provided a “proof of baptism” card. It could work sorta like a AAA card. It could save you 10% on a hotel that is guaranteed to never be anywhere near your vacation spot and could get you 1 free refill of luke-warm coffee with the purchase of a $27 dollar breakfast from Denny’s.

Upon further reflection…

How about a drive up baptismal booth? You know, like the drive up wedding booths in Vegas. You choose your order from the menu. The menu board choices could be: The #1 Catholic, The #2 Lutheran, etc. You place your order into a speaker which the person on the other side won’t be able to understand you and you have to repeat it 3 times.Then they will tell you to pull up to the first window which is actually the 2nd window because they haven’t used the first window since the place was built. A priest, deacon, or preacher, depending on you menu choice, will lean out of the window and say the blessing. He will move out of the way while a “I could care less” underpaid teenager in a paper hat tosses a 5 gallon bucket full of holy water onto you.

Meanwhile back at the ranch…

I rambled. My mind works that way sometimes. I apologize.

So my questions are:

Why wouldn’t the church just take my word for it? Why would I need to offer proof or have a hearing about my lack of proof?

 

[ASD]

Sponsor: We will need addresses/phone numbers of your family so they can vouch that you haven’t been baptized.

Me: Umm that’s gonna be a problem because both of my parent’s are dead and I am the elder in the family.

Sponsor: If we can’t get this information, we will have to have a formal tribunal hearing in order for you to become Catholic

I thought baptism could be administered conditionally. Like

If you have never been baptized, I baptize thee in the name of . . …

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Eucharisted]

Baptismal booth sounds fun

I’m sorry you’re having a hard time entering the Church

But fear not, God is on your side! Trust in Him and pray thus:

"O my Jesus, I offer You all my crosses, my sufferings, my sorrows, my disappointments, my trials, my tribulations, my temptations, and my obstacles and roadblocks: for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the offenses against the Immaculate Heart of Mary."

A short prayer you can pray each morning is:

"Jesus, make me a saint."

Anyone can pray like this, even non-Catholics

 

[VociMike]

The Church has a procedure called conditional baptism. Essentially the priest says during the ritual, if you have not already been baptized, I baptize you…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

So my questions are:

Why wouldn’t the church just take my word for it? Why would I need to offer proof or have a hearing about my lack of proof?

Just fill out the form with “Not Baptized”. Should be DONE, end of story. The Marriage situation however has much more to it then just your Baptism.

Conditional Baptism is for those situations where you believe you were Baptized but something about the Baptism is questionable. conditional Baptism is administered ASAP, in private, and you are treated as a Candidate from that time forward.

 

[DianJo]

Tribunal??? I’ve never heard of such a thing.
If you’ve not been baptized then just put down - Not Baptized. Even if you think you might’ve been but have no records, there is no tribunal, just a conditional baptism.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Disclaimer: Please keep in mind that my questions are serious, but I do like to throw in some humor in my posts.

I have hit a snag in my pursuit to become Catholic. I am divorced and have since remarried. I was told from the start that I would need an annulment through the church. No big deal. It’s a small price to pay to become Catholic.

After RCIA class the other night, my sponsor gave me a form to fill out about my baptism (or lack of in my case) and about my civil divorce. Still, no big deal. My sponsor and my parish are aware that I wasn’t “trained” in any religion. So this part of the form will be easy to fill out.

This is the conversation between me and my sponsor:

Sponsor: We will need addresses/phone numbers of your family so they can vouch that you haven’t been baptized.

Me: Umm that’s gonna be a problem because both of my parent’s are dead and I am the elder in the family.

Sponsor: If we can’t get this information, we will have to have a formal tribunal hearing in order for you to become Catholic

Me: <------I actually made that face.

I start thinking to myself:

Is a hearing really necessary?
Why can’t the church just take my word for it?
Even if I was baptized, obviously I wasn’t aware of it and I didn’t get a “baptismal receipt” or a “thanks for baptizing with us” letter.

It would be helpful if churches provided a “proof of baptism” card. It could work sorta like a AAA card. It could save you 10% on a hotel that is guaranteed to never be anywhere near your vacation spot and could get you 1 free refill of luke-warm coffee with the purchase of a $27 dollar breakfast from Denny’s.

Upon further reflection…

How about a drive up baptismal booth? You know, like the drive up wedding booths in Vegas. You choose your order from the menu. The menu board choices could be: The #1 Catholic, The #2 Lutheran, etc. You place your order into a speaker which the person on the other side won’t be able to understand you and you have to repeat it 3 times.Then they will tell you to pull up to the first window which is actually the 2nd window because they haven’t used the first window since the place was built. A priest, deacon, or preacher, depending on you menu choice, will lean out of the window and say the blessing. He will move out of the way while a “I could care less” underpaid teenager in a paper hat tosses a 5 gallon bucket full of holy water onto you.

Meanwhile back at the ranch…

I rambled. My mind works that way sometimes. I apologize.

So my questions are:

Why wouldn’t the church just take my word for it? Why would I need to offer proof or have a hearing about my lack of proof?

the Church professes one Baptism. so, she has to make sure you have not yet been baptized. i had to get mine certificate, it was a little difficult since i was baptized many years ago in a small town. i did not believe it still existed but there it was.

be ready to be tested. your faith will be tested believe me.

humble yourself this is the beginning of humility. it s not easy but our Lord will be pleased.

**
“And they dedicated themselves to the breaking of the Bread and the teachings of the Apostles.”**

 

[Lizziebel]

I’m not sure why there’s a need for a hearing, when instead a conditional baptism could be done. There was no way to track down the minister who did my baptism years ago, so this month I’ll have a conditional baptism just to be sure.

Hopefully it will all be worked out! Best of luck, htk!

 

[puzzleannie]

I’ve been involved w/RCIA in some fashion for 20 years and I never heard of this. This leads me to think there is more to the story, that the sponsor or director has reason to believe it is quite possible the candidate has been baptized. If there is doubt, and only if there is doubt, the solution is conditional baptism. but I don’t know how you go about proving a negative.

again not knowing the whole story, I tend to wonder if the sponsor or director has had problems in the past, coming right up to Easter then having a supposed catechumen remember “well I was baptized as a child by my uncle, but I didn’t think it mattered.” This scenario, I have seen.

I am still mulling over the baptismal booth idea. ONe of the fastest growing businesses here is self-serve car washes, and I am wonder how long it will take for some evangelist to get the idea to add a dunk booth for baptism to some of these places.

what we do offer (mandated by new diocesan legislation) is a card that proves you took the parent/sponsor classes to have your child’s baptism, confirmation or first communion. You have given me a good fundraising idea, why couldn’t I get local merchants to pay for advertising space on the back of these cards, with coupons for free coke with your pizza, free burger with purchase of one, or free cup of coffee with a donut. I might be able to fund my whole program that way. The candy bars and popcorn the boyscouts and band boosters sell have coupons, why not CCD?

 

[htk553]

Thank you for your replies

The other part of the roadblock would be trying to locate my ex wife who is living in Mexico. This just keeps getting better.

 

[puzzleannie]

Thank you for your replies

The other part of the roadblock would be trying to locate my ex wife who is living in Mexico. This just keeps getting better.

you don’t have to locate her, you have to give the best contact information you can find to the tribunal, as they will attempt to communicate with her, you don’t have to. You also should work on getting the best contact info you can find for witnesses who can attest to circumstances that pertained at the time of your marriage, who will bear out those that you feel make your marriage invalid and back up your case.

 

[Penitant]

The issue is not about his baptism…

The issue is the annulment. Whether or not he was baptized plays a HUGE role in the annulment proceedings.

If neither of them were baptized, then Pauline privilege can be invoked.
If one of them was baptized, then Petrine privilege could be invoked.
If one of them was baptized as a Catholic, then there was defect of form.
If they were both baptized, then the annulment proceedings get a bit more complicated.

 

[puzzleannie]

if the problem is his annulment, his sponsor and RCIA director should have no part in this, the pastor who is overseeing his case should be in on the proof of baptism (or lack of it). Unless the RCIA director is also the deacon or priest who oversees marriage preparation and annulment, this is not part of RCIA, which is why I don’t see how his sponsor is involved.

also we don’t know what the sponsor actually said, if it was verbatim as OP cites (which I doubt) it is full of misinformation and sloppy language, which is certainly not helpful to any poor RCIA candidate, let alone to anyone seeking annulment.

 

[DD2007]

Me: <------I actually made that face.

I start thinking to myself:

Is a hearing really necessary?
Why can’t the church just take my word for it?
QUOTE]

Although not over that same issue, I have had this same problem with the Church. Administration is a big reason I left. I’m a Presbyterian now.

I think they should take your word for it. If you are going to sin, it’s between you and God. I think it’s obviously better for everyone if the Church just believes people when they hear their answer. It is especially disconcerting when you fell like they don’t believe you or think you are too foolish to understand your own situation.

 

[DianJo]

htk553;4779433:

Me:

<------I actually made that face.

I start thinking to myself:

Is a hearing really necessary?
Why can’t the church just take my word for it?
QUOTE]

Although not over that same issue, I have had this same problem with the Church. Administration is a big reason I left. I’m a Presbyterian now.

I think they should take your word for it. If you are going to sin, it’s between you and God. I think it’s obviously better for everyone if the Church just believes people when they hear their answer. It is especially disconcerting when you fell like they don’t believe you or think you are too foolish to understand your own situation.

I’m sorry you “feel” that way and so sorry you left over such a silly reason.
Unfortunately, the proof of Baptism is very important and essential to receiving the other sacraments of the Church. Without Baptism, no other sacraments can be received and the Church would be remiss in not making sure that Baptism had been recieved.

I had a student just last year that was preparing for Confirmation. At the beginning of the year I asked for Baptismal certificates from everyone who did not have one on record or who was not recorded in our parish record books. Everyone, including the boy, thought he had been baptized, although he was not sure. He had been coming to CCD for years and also attending Mass - he thought he was Catholic! I do not know if he had been receiving Communion all that time.

2 weeks before Confirmation, it was finally discovered (due to another denomination’s erroneous understanding of Baptism) that the boy had NOT been properly Baptized! Whoa! Now what?
Fortunately, I was able to facilitate the boy’s Baptism - one week before Confirmation - and he was Confirmed with his class! He also received his “official” Frist Communion.

So, from that example - that’s why we just can’t “take your word for it.” I’m sorry that you feel that providing “proof” is/was such a burden but the Catholic Church takes the adminstration of the Sacraments very seriously. Baptism is a very important first step in a person’s faith journey and the Church does not make a habit of just re-baptizing people because it’s “too hard” to locate records. The Catholic Church does not “re-baptize” anybody.

 

[DD2007]

DD2007;4786882:

I’m sorry you “feel” that way and so sorry you left over such a silly reason.
Unfortunately, the proof of Baptism is very important and essential to receiving the other sacraments of the Church. QUOTE]

Here’s the proof; “I was baptised in this (_) denomination.”

Now it’s up to the Church to decide if they accept said baptism or if it needs to be done in the Catholic manner.

If a person tells you they haven’t been baptised at all I suggest rushing them straight to the font without further ado.

 

[seekdatruth]

htk553;4779433:

Me:

<------I actually made that face.

I start thinking to myself:

Is a hearing really necessary?
Why can’t the church just take my word for it?
QUOTE]

I think they should take your word for it. If you are going to sin, it’s between you and God. I think it’s obviously better for everyone if the Church just believes people when they hear their answer. It is especially disconcerting when you fell like they don’t believe you or think you are too foolish to understand your own situation.

I second that. Thank you, OP, for posting this! As a person who is waiting eagerly to receive the Holy Eucharist because of my paperwork for annulment due to “lack of form”, and therefore I am still “living in mortal sin” with my husband of nearly 8 years, I feel you. I could have just not said anything in the first place about my previous marriage, since there is no way anyone would have known here about my 1 1/2 yr marriage to someone in a different state over 10 years ago. That would be, well, LYING. I would be clear by now, (yet I feel awful for those who have to actually go through a big tribunal trial ordeal, paying sometimes thousands of dollars ) if this were so. So if I’m a big fat liar, being in a new town and all, I could just go to Communion like no big deal and never pay a toll and never suffer “consequences” from the Church. Granted, I understand it’s on a person’s soul when they lie, and the Eucharist is empty in meaning to them, which is horribly sad, however, this is why I told the truth though! My point is people who are repentant are wandering around without a pass for the Sacred Body and Blood (that we all need, according to Scripture and the teachings of the Church), but merely due to administrative issues remain for years, at times, considered ineligible. Meanwhile, lost souls consume the Eucharist and thinking they’re OK yet remain lost! Does anyone care about* them*?!?
SO the purpose, as everyone keeps telling me, is to allow me to properly feel the consequences of my actions, so that I can learn that I’ve sinned, even though I have apparently already acknowledged that I have sinned, and definitely felt consequences of my actions enough to repent and return to the Church and seek forgiveness DESPITE obstacles?
Yes,*** I *** made my mistakes in the past. I have no one to blame for the state of mortal sin I am in but myself, yet I can repent all day, and feel horrible all day, and know in my heart that I’m sorry and that God would forgive me, yet the Church hasn’t yet determined I’m worthy, and that’s all that matters. Thankfully, my priest paid my $50 processing fee, since my husband, quite practically, noted that in these tough times we can’t afford such things in lieu of putting food on the table for our children. If you’re watching, Fr, THANK YOU! Yet I’m still struggling with this and want a better explanation.

 

[seekdatruth]

Me: Umm that’s gonna be a problem because both of my parent’s are dead and I am the elder in the family.**I do have a bit of maybe useful advice on this though: I had to get similar affidavit-type statements by credible witnesses for my “lack of form” process. No one said it had to be someone OLDER than me, nor actual family, just a CREDIBLE WITNESS. Do you have life-long friends, former caregivers, or extended family that have known you all your life and can say, “He didn’t get baptized that I know of.” I suggest you ask your priest to clarify the terms for you. **

Sponsor: If we can’t get this information, we will have to have a formal tribunal hearing in order for you to become Catholic

Is a hearing really necessary?
Why can’t the church just take my word for it?
Even if I was baptized, obviously I wasn’t aware of it and I didn’t get a “baptismal receipt” or a “thanks for baptizing with us” letter.
**LOL!! Are we related? You crack me up! **

It would be helpful if churches provided a “proof of baptism” card. It could work sorta like a AAA card. It could save you 10% on a hotel that is guaranteed to never be anywhere near your vacation spot and could get you 1 free refill of luke-warm coffee with the purchase of a $27 dollar breakfast from Denny’s.
**GREAT IDEA! **

I rambled. My mind works that way sometimes. I apologize.
**Feel free to PM me and ramble any time, as long as you don’t mind the same in return. **

 

[DD2007]

DD2007;4786882:

I second that. Thank you, OP, for posting this! As a person who is waiting eagerly to receive the Holy Eucharist because of my paperwork for annulment due to “lack of form”, and therefore I am still “living in mortal sin” with my husband of nearly 8 years, I feel you. I could have just not said anything in the first place about my previous marriage, since there is no way anyone would have known here about my 1 1/2 yr marriage to someone in a different state over 10 years ago. That would be, well, LYING. I would be clear by now, (yet I feel awful for those who have to actually go through a big tribunal trial ordeal, paying sometimes thousands of dollars ) if this were so. So if I’m a big fat liar, being in a new town and all, I could just go to Communion like no big deal and never pay a toll and never suffer “consequences” from the Church. Granted, I understand it’s on a person’s soul when they lie, and the Eucharist is empty in meaning to them, which is horribly sad, however, this is why I told the truth though! My point is people who are repentant are wandering around without a pass for the Sacred Body and Blood (that we all need

, according to Scripture and the teachings of the Church), but merely due to administrative issues remain for years, at times, considered ineligible. Meanwhile, lost souls consume the Eucharist and thinking they’re OK yet remain lost! Does anyone care about* them*?!?
SO the purpose, as everyone keeps telling me, is to allow me to properly feel the consequences of my actions, so that I can learn that I’ve sinned, even though I have apparently already acknowledged that I have sinned, and definitely felt consequences of my actions enough to repent and return to the Church and seek forgiveness DESPITE obstacles?
Yes,*** I *** made my mistakes in the past. I have no one to blame for the state of mortal sin I am in but myself, yet I can repent all day, and feel horrible all day, and know in my heart that I’m sorry and that God would forgive me, yet the Church hasn’t yet determined I’m worthy, and that’s all that matters. Thankfully, my priest paid my $50 processing fee, since my husband, quite practically, noted that in these tough times we can’t afford such things in lieu of putting food on the table for our children. If you’re watching, Fr, THANK YOU! Yet I’m still struggling with this and want a better explanation.

Wow. That was a great post. That’s how I felt back then as well. I never could reconcile it. One thing led to another and eventually it became one of the reasons I lost faith in the leaders of the RCC. There were doctrinal issues as well bbut I don’t really want to go into them on a thread like this.

But given the theology, I think the administration in the RCC on a scale of 1-10 is around the 1.5 catagory. The only reason it’s not the minimum 1 is because of the few good hearted God fearing priests who have enough sense to bend the rules a bit.

 

[htk553]

Although not over that same issue, I have had this same problem with the Church. Administration is a big reason I left. I’m a Presbyterian now.

I think they should take your word for it. If you are going to sin, it’s between you and God. I think it’s obviously better for everyone if the Church just believes people when they hear their answer. It is especially disconcerting when you fell like they don’t believe you or think you are too foolish to understand your own situation.

Thank you DD2007. The doctrine is a bit hard to swallow sometimes.