Robert Spencer?

[SnakeMauler]

I noticed he gave a talk at Franciscan university, so I figured that must make him a reputable individual. However, my Muslim sympathizing friends believe that because he has no degree in Islamic studies, has had associations with supposed known racist groups, that everything he says, despite some of it seeming to be true, is completely worthless. How should we feel about Robert Spencer?

 

[robwar]

You need to honestly read his books and he is very effective at refuting Islam. He uses their sources, the earliest records especially when he writes about Mohammed and those who accuse him fro being hateful or racist are not being either honest or have not read his books or even checked his sources. One of his sources is Ibn Warraq who wrote “Why I am not a Muslim”. I have read a couple of his books only to check on Robert’s Spencers references. He left Islam and I think he is still an atheist. Ibn Warraq I would classify as angry but not Robert Spencer. Ibn Warraq is pretty tough to read and lays out more emotionally what is wrong with Islam. Remember that there are death threats and fatwas against anyone who leaves Islam or speaks “ill” about it.

 

[SuperLuigi]

=SnakeMauler;10604110]I noticed he gave a talk at Franciscan university, so I figured that must make him a reputable individual.

Well, speaking at a Catholic school shouldn’t make or break one’s reputation necessarily. A lot of “Catholic” college have fallen far.

However, my Muslim sympathizing friends believe that because he has no degree in Islamic studies, has had associations with supposed known racist groups,

The pandering of the Western left :bowdown: to Muslims is sickening and unnecessary.

I think your friends need to stop following the PC crowd out of popularity.

If they think someone needs to have a degree in the exact field they are in, I expect them not to apply for jobs outside of their field of study no matter what the circumstances.

Besides, a degree in XYZ studies a lot of times isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on, and these kids are the ones who end up tending bar or waitressing. Not that either are bad jobs, but a lot of folks in acedemia look down on them.

As far as “racist” goes, it’s an overrated word especially coming out of the mouths of college students looking to prove how tolerant they think they are. You have to take it with a big grain of salt, especially here since Islam is not a race.

that everything he says, despite some of it seeming to be true, is completely worthless.

All that tells me is that they have no counterargument or do not understand his positions. Typical academic, left-wing strategy.

How should we feel about Robert Spencer?

That’s up to you.

From what you say, your friends haven’t done much research or thinking for themselves. :tsktsk:

I assure you, I’m not surprised in the least.

Robert Spencer had (maybe still has) a site called jihadwatch that documents various events in the Islamic world.

Spencer is not a journalist, but he does cover events that seem to very absent from the Western media, which like the academic left, tends to favor Islam even more so than feminism or gay rights.

He is a commentator and a pretty successful one at that.

 

[aspirant]

How should we feel about Robert Spencer?

There are much better sources for learning about Islam, including the teaching of the Church.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

There are much better sources for learning about Islam, including the teaching of the Church.

I recommend 111 Questions on Islam by Samir Kalil Samir SJ (and translated by Giorgio Paolucci and Camille Eid) published by Ignatius Press.

 

[Adamski]

I noticed he gave a talk at Franciscan university, so I figured that must make him a reputable individual. However, my Muslim sympathizing friends believe that because he has no degree in Islamic studies, has had associations with supposed known racist groups, that everything he says, despite some of it seeming to be true, is completely worthless. How should we feel about Robert Spencer?

I recently had a discussion with a former Islamic extremist , Daniel Shayesteh a current evangilical christian who said Robert spencer is extemely acurate

His website is exudus from darkness

I also asked Daniel Shayesteh why he isn’t in the historical church that Jesus founded te Roman Catholic church. He said " I am trying to figure out all the divisions in Christianity and evangelicals where te first to reach out to him"

 

[jakasaki]

I noticed he gave a talk at Franciscan university, so I figured that must make him a reputable individual. However, my Muslim sympathizing friends believe that because he has no degree in Islamic studies, has had associations with supposed known racist groups, that everything he says, despite some of it seeming to be true, is completely worthless. How should we feel about Robert Spencer?

His book is being sold right here on this CAF book store site:

shop.catholic.com/not-peace-but-a-sword-the-great-chasm-between-christianity-and-islam.html

 

[pismopal]

I recommend 111 Questions on Islam by Samir Kalil Samir SJ (and translated by Giorgio Paolucci and Camille Eid) published by Ignatius Press.

Robert Spencer is a practicing Catholic and I would be interested in your providing an example of something he has said or written which is provably false or outside and directly at odds with any Church teaching.

 

[robwar]

Robert Spencer is a practicing Catholic and I would be interested in your providing an example of something he has said or written which is provably false or outside and directly at odds with any Church teaching.

I agree 100%, today on CAF there have been too many threads and posts that are seemingly attacking him and are very pro-Islam. One of the other posters above said he wasn’t reliable, but from every ex-muslim i’ve talked to, they state he is and no one can point to anything inaccurate in what Robert Spencer has written. The same poster made one link at a very nasty pro-islamic blog to prove the idea that he is inaccurate. There is a spiritual battle going on CAF today concerning Islam, and when one man is brave enough to lift the burtka that hides the real things, well meaning uninformed Christians and Catholics don’t want to take a look in the false name of tolerance and understanding.

 

[Denimguy]

Well, speaking at a Catholic school shouldn’t make or break one’s reputation necessarily. A lot of “Catholic” college have fallen far.
.

While this is true, I don’t believe Franciscan University falls under that heading. They are pretty orthodox.

 

[Bezant]

I noticed he gave a talk at Franciscan university, so I figured that must make him a reputable individual. However, my Muslim sympathizing friends believe that because he has no degree in Islamic studies, has had associations with supposed known racist groups, that everything he says, despite some of it seeming to be true, is completely worthless. How should we feel about Robert Spencer?

How would you react if your non-Christian friends regarded Dan Brown as a Christianity scholar?

I’m not saying Spencer and Brown are on the same level of scholarship, but they do approach their information with preconceived intent. Spencer studies Islam to refute it; in other words he has the answer, he’s just looking for the evidence to fit it. It’s a low bar, to be honest.

 

[manualman]

Spencer is a controversial figure because (IMO) he’s not particularly careful about distinguishing the core principles of Islam from the reality of who muslims generally are. His work is too easily used as ammunition by those seeking to stoke the fires of conflict between the West and the muslim world because he presents Islam as a near-monolith when in fact it is a fractured community far moreso than all the variants of christianity!

The reality is that muslims are human like us: created in the image and likeness of God (i.e. good), but tragically fallen and in need of Grace. This is both why you find so many decent and honorable muslims out there and why there are psychopaths as well. This will be the case whether or not there are evil doctrinal issues innate to the teachings of Islam.

The best criticism of him is that he presents the militant and violent interpretation of Islam as THE correct version and derides muslim “reformers” as wishful thinkers, at best. His characterization may or may not be accurate, but it’s not clear to me how he thinks he’s helping things by essentially identifying nonviolent muslims as “cafeteria muslims” (to appropriate a term American catholics are familiar with!).

His actual best contibution is to combat the “head-in-sand” attitude that the multicultural Western nations have adopted that Islam itself is harmless and that just a few nutjobs out there are what we have to fear. Not true. Islam inherently considers the life and example of Muhammed to be flawless and blameless and Muhammed’s life objectively contains actions, behaviors and reasoning that are barbaric (polygamy, consumating mariage with 9-14 year old brides, executing POWs, wars of acquisition/conquering, etc…). He makes cogent arguments that the teachings of Islam in many cases appeal to the fallen side of human nature in many circumstances.

Muslim apologists rightly note the long laundry list of evil behaviors in the history of christianity and Judaism, but fail to recognize the difference between failures of the former to live up to the tenets of christianity and the fact that jihadis ARE conforming to the example of Muhammed. That’s a big hurdle for would-be muslim reformers to clear. But there’s still no reason to undercut those who try.

So my take that Spencer is someone you can learn a lot from, but should be careful of emulating. And beware the tendency to lump all muslims together as if they were all the same.

 

[aspirant]

Robert Spencer is a practicing Catholic and I would be interested in your providing an example of something he has said or written which is provably false or outside and directly at odds with any Church teaching.

Recommending a book by Fr. Samir, as Johann du Toit did in the post you quoted, is not a claim about Robert Spencer.

 

[Reuben_J]

Spencer is a controversial figure because (IMO) he’s not particularly careful about distinguishing the core principles of Islam from the reality of who muslims generally are. His work is too easily used as ammunition by those seeking to stoke the fires of conflict between the West and the muslim world because he presents Islam as a near-monolith when in fact it is a fractured community far moreso than all the variants of christianity!

The reality is that muslims are human like us: created in the image and likeness of God (i.e. good), but tragically fallen and in need of Grace. This is both why you find so many decent and honorable muslims out there and why there are psychopaths as well. This will be the case whether or not there are evil doctrinal issues innate to the teachings of Islam.

The best criticism of him is that he presents the militant and violent interpretation of Islam as THE correct version and derides muslim “reformers” as wishful thinkers, at best. His characterization may or may not be accurate, but it’s not clear to me how he thinks he’s helping things by essentially identifying nonviolent muslims as “cafeteria muslims” (to appropriate a term American catholics are familiar with!).

His actual best contibution is to combat the “head-in-sand” attitude that the multicultural Western nations have adopted that Islam itself is harmless and that just a few nutjobs out there are what we have to fear. Not true. Islam inherently considers the life and example of Muhammed to be flawless and blameless and Muhammed’s life objectively contains actions, behaviors and reasoning that are barbaric (polygamy, consumating mariage with 9-14 year old brides, executing POWs, wars of acquisition/conquering, etc…). He makes cogent arguments that the teachings of Islam in many cases appeal to the fallen side of human nature in many circumstances.

Muslim apologists rightly note the long laundry list of evil behaviors in the history of christianity and Judaism, but fail to recognize the difference between failures of the former to live up to the tenets of christianity and the fact that jihadis ARE conforming to the example of Muhammed. That’s a big hurdle for would-be muslim reformers to clear. But there’s still no reason to undercut those who try.

So my take that Spencer is someone you can learn a lot from, but should be careful of emulating. And beware the tendency to lump all muslims together as if they were all the same.

A fair and balanced post. The last paragraph is my thought too.

 

[AbideWithMe]

A fair and balanced post. The last paragraph is my thought too.

I have to second this. —well written post, Manualman.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I’m not saying Spencer and Brown are on the same level of scholarship, but they do approach their information with preconceived intent. Spencer studies Islam to refute it; in other words he has the answer, he’s just looking for the evidence to fit it. It’s a low bar, to be honest.

 

[robwar]

How would you react if your non-Christian friends regarded Dan Brown as a Christianity scholar?

I’m not saying Spencer and Brown are on the same level of scholarship, but they do approach their information with preconceived intent. Spencer studies Islam to refute it; in other words he has the answer, he’s just looking for the evidence to fit it. It’s a low bar, to be honest.

Seriously, have you really read any of his books? or are you just judging him because he has done the research and presents it very well and it goes against the popular concept that we are equal with Islam. For those that are critical of Robert Spencer, no one has actually pointed out in any specificity by quoting anything from him where he was inaccurate or unfair. But what the critics here have done is what they accuse Mr. Spencer of doing, making sweeping generalizations without any backed up evidence at all. If you want to read an anger account of Islam, you should read any of Ibn Warraq books who has left Islam to become an atheist. Mr. Spencer’s latest book which I just downloaded to my Kindle starts out in his first chapter stating that one should always treat any Muslim that we met with respect and kindness but real dialog and discussion should not hide the truth and gloss over the violent history of Islam and its violent teachings.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Seriously, have you really read any of his books? or are you just judging him because he has done the research and presents it very well and it goes against the popular concept that we are equal with Islam. For those that are critical of Robert Spencer, no one has actually pointed out in any specificity by quoting anything from him where he was inaccurate or unfair. But what the critics here have done is what they accuse Mr. Spencer of doing, making sweeping generalizations without any backed up evidence at all. If you want to read an anger account of Islam, you should read any of Ibn Warraq books who has left Islam to become an atheist. Mr. Spencer’s latest book which I just downloaded to my Kindle starts out in his first chapter stating that one should always treat any Muslim that we met with respect and kindness but real dialog and discussion should not hide the truth and gloss over the violent history of Islam and its violent teachings.

Amen.

 

[robwar]

For those critics of Mr. Spencer, I am wondering if any of you can defend how the Koran and Islam treats and teaches about women. The Koran says women are “tilth” for men, men can beat their disobedient wives, men can have up to 4 wives, Mohammed gave a great example of marrying a six year old and then has sex with her at nine. (isn’t that child abuse?). Women are to be covered except for their hands. The Koran’s version of heaven is about endless sexual pleasure for men, nothing about women. A women’s testimony is only 1/2 the weight of a man. Rape cases almost always end in the women being stoned as an adulteress because she would need a witness other than herself since her own testimony doesn’t count. So someone like Mr. Spencer comes along, quotes and points out all this ugliness and this isn’t happening in the long ago past but now in Islamic countries and those of you that are his critics are mostly men and live in a free country based on Judeo-Christian values actually then say with no facts at all that he is just making generalizations and is unfair or making an unfair presentation.

 

[Reuben_J]

For those critics of Mr. Spencer, I am wondering if any of you can defend how the Koran and Islam treats and teaches about women. The Koran says women are “tilth” for men, men can beat their disobedient wives, men can have up to 4 wives, Mohammed gave a great example of marrying a six year old and then has sex with her at nine. (isn’t that child abuse?). Women are to be covered except for their hands. The Koran’s version of heaven is about endless sexual pleasure for men, nothing about women. A women’s testimony is only 1/2 the weight of a man. Rape cases almost always end in the women being stoned as an adulteress because she would need a witness other than herself since her own testimony doesn’t count. So someone like Mr. Spencer comes along, quotes and points out all this ugliness and this isn’t happening in the long ago past but now in Islamic countries and those of you that are his critics are mostly men and live in a free country based on Judeo-Christian values actually then say with no facts at all that he is just making generalizations and is unfair or making an unfair presentation.

No contest there, Rob. I would say the same about Islam. But I have heard how a Muslim would explain about heaven, women dressing and wife beating. And about men having maximum of four wives. They say there are conditions when these can be done. I am not defending Islam nor the Quran. Even without the conditions, I do not believe in polygamy, wife beating and child marriage. However, when you present Islamic belief like the above, you have not told the whole story. I have no problem with that either.

But if I have to dialogue with Muslims I would have to admit their full belief and I would still do not agree with them. But concede what they actually believe. Like I would gladly refute if a Protestant says it is wrong to pray to Mary, which we are (praying to Mary), rather than them saying we worship Mary, which we do not.

Spencer’s academic knowledge on Islam is helpful for us but him generalizing Muslims as violent or being terrorists is not. When he is right, he is useful for us; when he is wrong then he is not. We have to be careful in that when we disagree with Spencer’s approach, it does not mean that we disagree with his knowledge when he is right nor it means that we support Islam.

When dealing with people of other religions like Muslims, we as Catholics have to show respect to their belief without having to agree with them. We are taught to.