Robert Sungenis and the Jews

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trth_skr said:
Robert and CAI are taking a new direction in terms of Jewish issues. Please all pray for the best outcome.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
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This is great news. It was very sad that CAI had become virtually crippled and shut down for the past 6 months (and more) over this controversy, which unfortunately was fueled and perpetuated by ad hominem attacks (on both sides) more than anything.

I think Not By Faith Alone is the most powerful apologetics work out there today, I pray sales of it increase.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
This is great news. It was very sad that CAI had become virtually crippled and shut down for the past 6 months (and more) over this controversy, which unfortunately was fueled and perpetuated by ad hominem attacks (on both sides) more than anything.

I think Not By Faith Alone is the most powerful apologetics work out there today, I pray sales of it increase.
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Come on, Catholicdude. This was fueled by Dr. Sungenis putting up one thing after another about Jews. It doesn’t help anything when you put it that way. Do you think Dr. Sungenis’ bishop got involved because of ad hominem? :rolleyes:

This is a good sign and we should pray that he keeps moving back onto the tracks.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Curious…
Israel/1948 You guys don’t believ it was fulfillment of divine prophecy? Is this the Vatican’s POV?
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This is from San Juan Catholic Seminars Beginning Apologetics # 9 and explains it better than I can.
 
WestonGrant said:
Come on, Catholicdude. This was fueled by Dr. Sungenis putting up one thing after another about Jews. It doesn’t help anything when you put it that way. Do you think Dr. Sungenis’ bishop got involved because of ad hominem? :rolleyes:

This is a good sign and we should pray that he keeps moving back onto the tracks.
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Actually that is basically what the Bishop criticized according to this letter Sungenis just put up. The article says the Bishop pointed out to Sungenis that he had “crossed the line” multiple times indicating there was a range where he had the right to express his opinions but that it had also spun out of control into a virtual mud slinging fest on both sides. If you have read most of the exchanges between CAI and others it has been personal attacks more than anything. BOTH sides went over board, this was never never a “good guys” vs “bad guys” thing, which the mass majority I have talked with or read about mistakenly fall on one of those sides.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Actually that is basically what the Bishop criticized according to this letter Sungenis just put up. The article says the Bishop pointed out to Sungenis that he had “crossed the line” multiple times indicating there was a range where he had the right to express his opinions but that it had also spun out of control into a virtual mud slinging fest on both sides. If you have read most of the exchanges between CAI and others it has been personal attacks more than anything. BOTH sides went over board, this was never never a “good guys” vs “bad guys” thing, which the mass majority I have talked with or read about mistakenly fall on one of those sides.
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What are you reading? :confused: The bishop and the vicar told him to stop because of how he said things and what he said about Jews. I don’t see anything the bishop or the vicar said about mud-slinging with his critics:
“The issue of how CAI has been communicating its concerns about the Jews was recently brought to our attention by the bishop of the diocese in which CAI is located, the Very Reverend, Kevin C. Rhoades of Harrisburg, PA. In a personal letter he wrote to me, and in a follow up meeting I recently had with his vicar general, the Very Reverend William J. King, JCD, along with the executive director for ecumenical and inter-religious affairs of the USCCB, the Reverend James Massa, the shepherds God has placed as overseers of my life and work have asked me to reconsider **the tone **and content with which I write about the Jewish people for CAI. They provided me various examples in which I have crossed the line into inappropriate language and accusations”
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catholicintl.com/articles/CAI_and_the_Jews.pdf

I mean, come on. That’s black and white. And the rest of the letter if filled with things about his Jewish writings and how he was maybe never going to go back to that again. And this is how Dr. Sungenis is describing it. You know he’s going to put it in the best light he can for himself. That’s what people do. I loved Not by Faith Alone too and I defended him for a while. But you can’t be serious. This was about what Dr. Sungenis writes about Jews and how the bishop told him to stop.

He says he’s moving back to what he does better and we need to pray that he does. I hope he gets back on track with his books!

🙂
 
I will absolutely go on record as saying that I am shocked, bowled over, flabbergasted, thunderstruck.
 
I think Sungenis’ books are on the money.

Not by Faith Alone and Not by Bread Alone are excellent, as is the Matthew Study Bible.
 
This was a great move. Christians are supposed to make Jews jealous for the Gospel of Jesus. This site was anything but.

Last week the site had posted a distasteful cartoon showing a rock and roller with a guitar pointing at a African child I believe, followed by a Israeli soldier pointing a rifle at a Palestinean child. The first cartoon had “live aid” and the second “live ammo”. That had NOTHING to do with apologetics.
 
WestonGrant said:
What are you reading? :confused: The bishop and the vicar told him to stop because of how he said things and what he said about Jews. I don’t see anything the bishop or the vicar said about mud-slinging with his critics:

catholicintl.com/articles/CAI_and_the_Jews.pdf

I mean, come on. That’s black and white. And the rest of the letter if filled with things about his Jewish writings and how he was maybe never going to go back to that again. And this is how Dr. Sungenis is describing it. You know he’s going to put it in the best light he can for himself. That’s what people do. I loved Not by Faith Alone too and I defended him for a while. But you can’t be serious. This was about what Dr. Sungenis writes about Jews and how the bishop told him to stop.

He says he’s moving back to what he does better and we need to pray that he does. I hope he gets back on track with his books!

🙂
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Nothing the bishops said indicated Sungenis was 100% wrong, that wasnt it. The point was he “crossed the line” and said some stuff he shouldnt have, eg tarnishing Shoeman’s reputation, referencing junk sources, attacking other Catholics, etc. The bishops had the power and were right to tell him to stop and get off that path. That being said, it is very very clear most of this was escalated because of the personal attacks from BOTH sides, it was a mud slinging event between Sungenis and other apologists that was making lots of people look bad and it is good the Bishop settled this.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Nothing the bishops said indicated Sungenis was 100% wrong, that wasnt it. The point was he “crossed the line” and said some stuff he shouldnt have, eg tarnishing Shoeman’s reputation, referencing junk sources, attacking other Catholics, etc. The bishops had the power and were right to tell him to stop and get off that path. That being said, it is very very clear most of this was escalated because of the personal attacks from BOTH sides, it was a mud slinging event between Sungenis and other apologists that was making lots of people look bad and it is good the Bishop settled this.
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I think it will be interesting to see if his other “critics” take the same advice… and perhaps a second deep look at their own positions.
 
Is it possible to summarize what Mr. Sungenis said about the Jews that was controversial? It’s hard for me to follow the discussion without that background, and apparently the controversial material has been excised from his web site so it’s impossible for me to go back and evaluate for myself. (I’m not all that moved by the fact, if it is a fact, that others made inappropriate personal attacks against Mr. Sungenis. I’m primarily interested in the content of the controversial postings on his site.)

Thanks.

CThomas
 
He told no lies

It seems that when he referenced public books or sources, and when he included such references as an integral part of the topic he was presenting, and when it shed the Jews as a whole, or someone in particular in a bad light… then Robert was attacked and labeled an anti-semite…

A wonderful priest, Fr. Chad Ripperger, asked and answered a question in a talk he gave. It was “… are there any actual practicing Jews in the world today?”

Of course the answer is no, yet many would jump and say “well sure there are…”

Practicing would require offering sacrifice at the temple… and there is no temple.

(Well, actuallly the New Jerusalem is anchored in Heaven, and the sacrifice of the Mass is Christ’s gift to us all… but all that would be another thread )
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Nothing the bishops said indicated Sungenis was 100% wrong, that wasnt it. The point was he “crossed the line” and said some stuff he shouldnt have, eg tarnishing Shoeman’s reputation, referencing junk sources, attacking other Catholics, etc. The bishops had the power and were right to tell him to stop and get off that path. That being said, it is very very clear most of this was escalated because of the personal attacks from BOTH sides, it was a mud slinging event between Sungenis and other apologists that was making lots of people look bad and it is good the Bishop settled this.
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I don’t agree. There is nothing in Dr. Sungenis’ letter that says the bishops told him to stop because of a mudslinging event or whatever like you said. Where’s the whole quote that says that? I don’t see it. This was about what he writes about Jews.

All of this started because Dr. Sungenis put up one thing after another about Jews, before anyone wrote anything about him. I mean, come on, I’m no Israel first guy either and I think the Palestinians are getting a really raw deal. But the stuff he was putting up was wrong a long time before critics came out against him. And until the bishop stepped in, he wouldn’t stop.

I know you like Dr. Sungenis’ work from before all of this and so do I, but your not helping anything by trying to make it look like what it wasn’t. I’ve read most of the articles on both sides now. And when even Ben Douglass jumped ship I really had to look closer. Douglass is with the Sungenis critics now and so am I.

CThomas, you can still find things at wquercus.com/sungenis/ and
sungenisandthejews.com/

Mr. S., I have no idea what you are talking about. He put up articles by White Supremacists and Holocaust deniers for pete’s sake.

But I’m done with this. There’s reason for hope and I don’t want to get down remembering everything again. If you want to remember things that way, I guess that’s your choice.
 
Wow, thanks, WestonGrant. I’m a free speech guy, and it saddens me to think that anyone (including his bishop) has prevented Mr. Sungenis from expressing his views freely. But on the merits, there is some really far-out stuff there (e.g., the reproduction, virtually verbatim, of Nazi propanganda pamphlets about FDR’s alleged Jewish ancestry). I’m surprised this guy is getting as much support here as he is, but then I obviously haven’t been following the issue and haven’t seen the other side, whatever it may be.

Regards,

CThomas
 
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