Robot vs. Saint, objectivity, and That Hideous Strength

  • Thread starter Thread starter Peter_J
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
On a side note, it’s hard not to notice that some people (a woman on MSNBC comes to mind) substitute *liberal/left *for good, and conservative/right for bad.
Yes, it’s subjective vs. objective reporting–in order to sway people’s minds to a particular ideology.

I believe it should be noted at this point, that our faith is not an ism or ideology, but the revelation of the Word of God to man for our salvation. An entirely different kind of thing, but how we use words (as the Logo reminded us so well) deeply affects people’s perceptions and beliefs. So, we must always speak the truth in charity, even if we strongly disagree with others. 🙂
 
I was just thinking how a passage from another Inkling might be helpful on this phenomenon,
On a side note, it’s hard not to notice that some people (a woman on MSNBC comes to mind) substitute *liberal/left *for good, and conservative/right for bad.
Pardon the long quotation:

People ask: “Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?”: or “May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?” Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every available quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word.

The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone “a gentleman” you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not “a gentleman” you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said - so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully - “Ah but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?” They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man “a gentleman” in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is “a gentleman” becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker’s attitude to that object. (A ‘nice’ meal only means a meal the speaker likes.) A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose.

Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say ‘deepening’, the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men’s hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to he a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
 
I believe it should be noted at this point, that our faith is not an ism or ideology, but the revelation of the Word of God to man for our salvation.
I would counter that Catholicism is an “ism” and “ideology” unless you can prove that there is a God, and that your interpretation of his Word is accurate. If simply stating that a proposal is true makes it not an ideology, then there are no ideologies.

If it interests you, starting from there I would propose that all ideologies are divisive, because what they are all made of, thought, operates by a process of division. As example, consider the function of a noun, to divide reality in to conceptual parts.

As far as I know, every ideology ever invented has inevitably sub-divided in to competing internal factions. This suggests a source of division deeper than the content of thought, deeper than the tenets of any particular ideology. As just one example even Christianity, an ideology explicitly about love, sub-divided in to warring factions that spent a couple centuries burning each other at the stake. That process of internal division and conflict continues to this day, in thankfully less exaggerated form.

Please note, the above does NOT point to Christianity as the source of the problem. It rather points to something deeper, human thought, that which Christianity and all ideologies are made of. If I’ve made that clear, then you will see I’m not promoting one ideology over another, but rather claiming they all lead inevitably to division and conflict.

What’s very interesting is that love is not made of thought. Love is a form of surrender, especially surrender of the “me”, the primary divisive creation of human thought. Thus, love does not divide, it unites.

If we examine our day to day ordinary lives, we can easily see that discussion of ideology inevitably leads to some level of division and conflict, whereas acts of love do not.

Thought divides.

Love unites.

Could it be that simple?
 
If simply stating that a proposal is true makes it not an ideology, then there are no ideologies.
No not exactly. Rather it would mean that people couldn’t agree about what’s an ideology: everyone would have to contend that their particular “ideology” was really not an ideology.

Basically it’s another example of what Lewis was talking about in the aforementioned passage, just in reverse: whereas some people redefine “gentleman” or “Christian” (or “liberal”) to be more or less synonymous with “good”, what you’re talking about would be making “ideology” more or less synonymous with “false”.
 
I would counter that Catholicism is an “ism” and “ideology” unless you can prove that there is a God, and that your interpretation of his Word is accurate. If simply stating that a proposal is true makes it not an ideology, then there are no ideologies.

If it interests you, starting from there I would propose that all ideologies are divisive, because what they are all made of, thought, operates by a process of division. As example, consider the function of a noun, to divide reality in to conceptual parts.

As far as I know, every ideology ever invented has inevitably sub-divided in to competing internal factions. This suggests a source of division deeper than the content of thought, deeper than the tenets of any particular ideology. As just one example even Christianity, an ideology explicitly about love, sub-divided in to warring factions that spent a couple centuries burning each other at the stake. That process of internal division and conflict continues to this day, in thankfully less exaggerated form.

Please note, the above does NOT point to Christianity as the source of the problem. It rather points to something deeper, human thought, that which Christianity and all ideologies are made of. If I’ve made that clear, then you will see I’m not promoting one ideology over another, but rather claiming they all lead inevitably to division and conflict.

What’s very interesting is that love is not made of thought. Love is a form of surrender, especially surrender of the “me”, the primary divisive creation of human thought. Thus, love does not divide, it unites.

If we examine our day to day ordinary lives, we can easily see that discussion of ideology inevitably leads to some level of division and conflict, whereas acts of love do not.

Thought divides.

Love unites.

Could it be that simple?
If I had a clue what you are driving at, I’d respond, but since there seems to be no unifying idea in all your statements, I simply can’t. 🤷
 
If I had a clue what you are driving at, I’d respond, but since there seems to be no unifying idea in all your statements, I simply can’t. 🤷
Fair enough. I agree it was an ambitious post attempting to cover too much ground in too little space. Probably off topic for this thread too. There is a unifying idea behind what I was trying to say, but it would take an ongoing conversation to make it clear. Some other day some other thread perhaps.
 
Fair enough. I agree it was an ambitious post attempting to cover too much ground in too little space. Probably off topic for this thread too. There is a unifying idea behind what I was trying to say, but it would take an ongoing conversation to make it clear. Some other day some other thread perhaps.
:tiphat:
 
Hat tipping will only encourage me to try again. 🙂 But first I will ask, do you want to have a clue what I’m driving at, or was your comment more of a drive by gotcha? I’m agreeable either way, but must insist that I’m thoroughly outraged that I can’t find the hat tipping emoticon. Buh!!
 
Hat tipping will only encourage me to try again. 🙂 But first I will ask, do you want to have a clue what I’m driving at, or was your comment more of a drive by gotcha? I’m agreeable either way, but must insist that I’m thoroughly outraged that I can’t find the hat tipping emoticon. Buh!!
I don’t suppose you have any thoughts about what I posted yesterday (24,22)?
 
Hat tipping will only encourage me to try again. 🙂 But first I will ask, do you want to have a clue what I’m driving at, or was your comment more of a drive by gotcha? I’m agreeable either way, but must insist that I’m thoroughly outraged that I can’t find the hat tipping emoticon. Buh!!
I don’t do drive by gotchas. I truly didn’t understand your post. You give it another go, if you want to, but I cannot guarantee I’ll understand what you are saying any better.

Sometimes people simply can’t communicate–especially not in writing in which we cannot use body language or facial expressions to help one another understand each other.

All I meant is that faith in Christ doesn’t depend on knowing or living out any form of ism or philosophy. Certainly Catholicism sounds like an ism because ism is used as a descriptive, but it’s really not an ism in the strict sense of the word. It’s a belief in a person not merely a set of beliefs/rules/philosophy of life.

Ideologies are narrow and must be followed exactly as stated. The teachings of the Church are broad and allow for conscience, culture, natural law and behavior. It’s all encompassing instead of trying to squeeze everything into one outlook/worldview, as isms and ideologies do.

I recommend the writings of G. K. Chesterton and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, if you haven’t already resourced them. 🙂
 
Basically it’s another example of what Lewis was talking about in the aforementioned passage, just in reverse: whereas some people redefine “gentleman” or “Christian” (or “liberal”) to be more or less synonymous with “good”, what you’re talking about would be making “ideology” more or less synonymous with “false”.
Thanks for this. Not sure we’re discussing the same thing yet, but I’ll bumble forward to see what happens.

All ideologies might be called false in the sense of “the word is not the thing”. Theories about God are not God, just as my screen name is not me. Even if the word “Ormond” refers very accurately to one specific person, the word “Ormond” can never be that person, because it is only a symbol.

This would seem to matter quite a bit if the purpose of religion is defined as experiencing God, and not just talking about him.

It’s commonly felt that the talking is a means to the end of experiencing. But if we didn’t have the talking to hide behind, as an excuse to dwell in, there’d be nothing left but the experiencing. Without the talking, I couldn’t waste endless hours typing glorious sermons about love. I’d have to actually go do it.

There’s lots more of this I could type, but let’s see if this is what you wish to discuss first. I’m admittedly totally lost as to what the topic is here… 🙂
 
I’m admittedly totally lost as to what the topic is here… 🙂
Well, original topic was “objectivity” … the posts about misuse (or what I would consider misuse anyhow) of terms like equating “good” with liberal are still on topic IMO, if only just barely. :cool:
 
Thanks for this. Not sure we’re discussing the same thing yet, but I’ll bumble forward to see what happens.

All ideologies might be called false in the sense of “the word is not the thing”. Theories about God are not God, just as my screen name is not me. Even if the word “Ormond” refers very accurately to one specific person, the word “Ormond” can never be that person, because it is only a symbol.

This would seem to matter quite a bit if the purpose of religion is defined as experiencing God, and not just talking about him.

It’s commonly felt that the talking is a means to the end of experiencing. But if we didn’t have the talking to hide behind, as an excuse to dwell in, there’d be nothing left but the experiencing. Without the talking, I couldn’t waste endless hours typing glorious sermons about love. I’d have to actually go do it.

**There’s lots more of this I could type, but let’s see if this is what you wish to discuss first. **
Maybe. What’s it worth to you?

😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top