Rock Music at Mass

[palmas85]

Actually, the opposite is happening. It is because of Lifeteen that I am able to go to a quiet daily mass and worship fully, and to silent adoration. I had 5th graders asking to sign up for an adoration hour at the church after a praise/worship night with adoration.

5th graders signing up for adoration?

Not saying I doubt you Agape, after all, I know that a staunch Lifeteen supporter such as yourself would never bend the truth concerning Lifeteen activities and the splendid success of them at all, but 5th graders voluntarily signing up for adoration does sound like a bit of a stretch.

But then again maybe these kids are especially devout.

 

[agapewolf]

5th graders signing up for adoration?

Not saying I doubt you Agape, after all, I know that a staunch Lifeteen supporter such as yourself would never bend the truth concerning Lifeteen activities and the splendid success of them at all, but 5th graders voluntarily signing up for adoration does sound like a bit of a stretch.

But then again maybe these kids are especially devout.

Not saying you doubt me, but your sacrastic implications say otherwise?

Yes…5th graders. Don’t accuse me of lying.

 

[benedictgal]

First, I would try to avoid the use of combative language like “ammunition” in reference to approaching your pastor. They usually don’t like to be approached in a way that seems like you’re “gunning” for them.

Really, there is no official Church document that forbids the use of guitar or drums at Mass. Pope Benedict made comments (when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger) on the inappropriateness of rock music for Mass. And while I greatly respect him (and also agree with him), these comments are not part of any formal Church document. There is no binding document that I am aware of that forbids their use. (If I’m wrong on this, please let me know!)

If I were you, I think the best approach would be a heartfelt appeal that the musical style doesn’t fit the group of people that typically attends Mass at that time. Thus, it has the potential of alienating many of the parishioners (pastors certainly don’t want to alienate anyone, so this point is probably your strongest). Rather than trying to get the pastor to ban those instruments by appealing to this or that Church document, you would probably be more successful in asking that he change which Mass time that music appears at (such as a special Sunday evening Mass).

Have you not read Pope St. Pius’ Motu Propio on Sacred Music. He pretty much had to clean up the musical condition of the Church at the beginning of the 20th century. Some 100 years later, Pope John Paul II said that, in essence, nothing has changed. In fact, he reminded us that liturgical music needs to be purified.

Furthermore, Pope Benedict XVI ratified that when he noted in Sacramentum Caritatis that one song is not as good as another as far as the liturgy is concerned.

 

[palmas85]

Not saying you doubt me, but your sacrastic implications say otherwise?

Yes…5th graders. Don’t accuse me of lying.

I didn’t accuse you of anything my friend. If I did, please point it out. I just said it sounds like a bit of a stretch. And it certainly does.

However, your highly defensive posture speaks volumes. If i was conducting an interrogation, of which I did thousands as a Police Officer. someone reacting in that manner would appear guilty or to be responding in a less than truthful fashion. People telling the truth don’t respond to someone questioning their statements by screaming out don’t accuse me of lying.

Something you should keep in mind for future reference.

 

[agapewolf]

I didn’t accuse you of anything my friend. If I did, please point it out. I just said it sounds like a bit of a stretch. And it certainly does.

However, your highly defensive posture speaks volumes. If i was conducting an interrogation, of which I did thousands as a Police Officer. someone reacting in that manner would appear guilty or to be responding in a less than truthful fashion. People telling the truth don’t respond to someone questioning their statements by screaming out don’t accuse me of lying.

Something you should keep in mind for future reference.

I did point it out… and I did not scream out. Police who fabricate and exaggerate reactions are also not working very ethically.

 

[palmas85]

I did point it out… and I did not scream out. Police who fabricate and exaggerate reactions are also not working very ethically.

You pointed out nothing at all except that I was sarcastic, which I cheerfully admit that I was. In response I can also say that people who fabricate and exaggerrate to support certain causes also do not work very ethically. Again something to keep in mind.

Making a statement that I accused you of lying when I did no such thing at all seems disingenious at best and downright deceitful at worst.

 

[agapewolf]

You pointed out nothing at all except that I was sarcastic, which I cheerfully admit that I was. In response I can also say that people who fabricate and exaggerrate to support certain causes also do not work very ethically. Again something to keep in mind.

Making a statement that I accused you of lying when I did no such thing at all seems disingenious at best and downright deceitful at worst.

I didn’t say you did…I saw you sarcastically implying it…that could lead to a statement that did. Hence, a warning, to not do it in the future.

The sacrastic implications are all over this board. They conveniently fly under the radar of the mods so that one isn’t reprimanded. Say what you have to say without hiding it.

I don’t need to keep your warning in mind, because I am not lying, nor exaggerating. I played music for adoration/praise and worship, and immediately after 3 5th graders asked about signing up for adoraiton chapel. Not a lie, not an exaggerastion, and I resent the sarcastic implication that I was. Stop it.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Last Sunday we were subjected to a rock band at Mass that was comprised of cymbals, drums, electric guitars and the like - your basic secular grouping of instruments that comprise most top 40 and hard rock music bands.

While the band did play Matt Maher (sp) songs and “praise” music, tit just seemed completely inappropriate at Mass. I listen to his music on CD and enjoy it. But the idea of sacred music during the Mass is obviously not a consideration. There was no quiet time for prayer from 45 minutes before the Mass and after the Mass the breakdown made it impossible to sit or kneel in prayer following the Mass. There was never a quiet moment duriong the Mass at all. Entire lines of the Gloria and the Agnus Dei were omitted and during the great Amen and other responses, lines were added to the response that the assembly was not aware of. The Responsorial Psalm was not the assigned Psalm for that Sunday.

This particular Mass is probably the most “traditional” at our church and I really question the wisdom of the pastor choosing to make this particular Mass the new guitar Mass for the New Millenium. What are the guidelines and requirements for music at Mass. I am not a canon lawyer and really do not have the time to find where I might make a defense of a more reverent Mass for those in our parish who would rather not be subjected to this type of Mass every Sunday. I adore our homilist at this Mass and do not want to change parishes or Mass times. How can the pastor be approached and with what ammunition that helps to preserve the solem atmosphere of Sunday Mass?

You have already made one mistake in questioning your pastor. Did you go through six + years of seminary? No you didn’t. Moving on. Soft rock and jazz and cultural praise songs are completely acceptable. Heavy metal and rap and music of this sort are out o the question.

 

[palmas85]

I didn’t say you did…I saw you sarcastically implying it…that could lead to a statement that did. Hence, a warning, to not do it in the future.

The sacrastic implications are all over this board. They conveniently fly under the radar of the mods so that one isn’t reprimanded. Say what you have to say without hiding it.

I don’t need to keep your warning in mind, because I am not lying, nor exaggerating. I played music for adoration/praise and worship, and immediately after 3 5th graders asked about signing up for adoraiton chapel. Not a lie, not an exaggerastion, and I resent the sarcastic implication that I was. Stop it.

I’ve only been answering you my friend. That is certainly the polite thing to do when one is addressed is it not? As far as the moderators I thought we weren’t supposed to comment on their actions or inactions.

As far as saying what I had to say I did just that.

 

[benedictgal]

You have already made one mistake in questioning your pastor. Did you go through six + years of seminary? No you didn’t. Moving on. Soft rock and jazz and cultural praise songs are completely acceptable. Heavy metal and rap and music of this sort are out o the question.

SHF, show me one document from the Holy See that makes your point. Furthermore, just becuuse one has gone to the seminary for six years doesn’t mean that his actions are fitting. A lot of liturgucal abuses have happened at the hands of those who have come from seminaries. If that were not the case, Rome would not have been issuing documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum.

I have shown you documents from Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI and even statements from Pope Paul VI. If you are simply going by the notes in the OCP songbooks or the LifeTeen literature, that is not enough. You need to go to the documents issued by the Apostolic See. Furthermore, the music at the Youth Masses was a chief problem for the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. A lot of the music at these Masses is light rock, something that the Fathers found very problematic to the point that they called it a shadow, and, that is not a compliment.

Pope Benedict, in his apostolic exhortation (response to the Synod Fathers) agreed with them when he made the statement that one song is not as good as another as far as the Liturgy is concerned.

 

[japhy]

You have already made one mistake in questioning your pastor.

I hope that, if you become a pastor, you never respond in that manner to a parishioner who asks you about your liturgical practices.

 

[japhy]

Not saying I doubt you Agape, after all, I know that a staunch Lifeteen supporter such as yourself would never bend the truth concerning Lifeteen activities and the splendid success of them at all, but 5th graders voluntarily signing up for adoration does sound like a bit of a stretch.

Knock it off, palmas. Ad hominem never helps.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

SHF, show me one document from the Holy See that makes your point. Furthermore, just becuuse one has gone to the seminary for six years doesn’t mean that his actions are fitting. A lot of liturgucal abuses have happened at the hands of those who have come from seminaries. If that were not the case, Rome would not have been issuing documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum.

I have shown you documents from Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI and even statements from Pope Paul VI. If you are simply going by the notes in the OCP songbooks or the LifeTeen literature, that is not enough. You need to go to the documents issued by the Apostolic See. Furthermore, the music at the Youth Masses was a chief problem for the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. A lot of the music at these Masses is light rock, something that the Fathers found very problematic to the point that they called it a shadow, and, that is not a compliment.

Pope Benedict, in his apostolic exhortation (response to the Synod Fathers) agreed with them when he made the statement that one song is not as good as another as far as the Liturgy is concerned.

statements are not law just so you know.

 

[Timothysis]

You have already made one mistake in questioning your pastor. Did you go through six + years of seminary? No you didn’t. Moving on. Soft rock and jazz and cultural praise songs are completely acceptable. Heavy metal and rap and music of this sort are out o the question.

What makes soft rock and jazz “acceptable” but not heavy metal and rap?

Your flippant attitude about the celebration of Mass is just one more thing that the Church does NOT need in order to combat liturgical abuse. The Pope’s opinion on the matter should be good enough for YOU.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

But then again who are any of us to trust complete strangers who might be half-way across the planet for all we know.

 

[VociMike]

What makes soft rock and jazz “acceptable” but not heavy metal and rap?

I too want to understand how this conclusion came about. How can we trace it back to Church documents? That would be a good start.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

You have already made one mistake in questioning your pastor. Did you go through six + years of seminary? No you didn’t. Moving on. Soft rock and jazz and cultural praise songs are completely acceptable. Heavy metal and rap and music of this sort are out o the question.

This is opinion, not fact. As was said, statements and opinions are not law.

And I agree that parishioners must be allowed to discuss their concerns with the Pastor, As I said, the complaints of my parish did lead to a change in the music.

Lux

 

[Timothysis]

But then again who are any of us to trust complete strangers who might be half-way across the planet for all we know.

If the title “Future Priest” in your signature indicates that you wish to enter the priesthood, then I fear we’ll have yet another parish where people will rant and rave about the things that are going on. Doesn’t the phrase “liturgical abuse” mean anything to you?

 

[benedictgal]

We tread on dangerous ground when we decide that statements made by Pontiffs (some deceased, some canonized and one who is a classically-trained musician) are mere opinions, even if their writings are official documents of the Church, as in the case of the Motu Propio on Sacred Music and Sacramentum Caritatis.

Take this statement, for example, taken from the Motu Propio, Tra le Sollectudini, the document written by Pope St. Pius X that has been repeatedly affirmed and reaffirmed by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI:

1. The Church has always recognized and favored the progress of the arts, admitting to the service of religion everything good and beautiful discovered by genius in the course of ages – always, however, with due regard to the liturgical laws. Consequently modern music is also admitted to the Church, since it, too, furnishes compositions of such excellence, sobriety and gravity, that they are in no way unworthy of the liturgical functions.

Still, since modern music has risen mainly to serve profane uses, greater care must be taken with regard to it, in order that the musical compositions of modern style which are admitted in the Church may contain nothing profane, be free from reminiscences of motifs adopted in the theaters, and be not fashioned even in their external forms after the manner of profane pieces.

1. Among the different kinds of modern music, that which appears less suitable for accompanying the functions of public worship is the theatrical style, which was in the greatest vogue, especially in Italy, during the last century. This of its very nature is diametrically opposed to Gregorian Chant and classic polyphony, and therefore to the most important law of all good sacred music. Besides the intrinsic structure, the rhythm and what is known as the conventionalism of this style adapt themselves but badly to the requirements of true liturgical music.

Some will argue that the saintly pontiff speaks only of Theatrical music; however, as Pope John Paul II noted in his Chirography on Sacred Music, the same problems that plagued Pius plague the Church today, as far as music is concerned.

 

[benedictgal]

Evidently, as far back as April 2008, Pope Benedict had expressed some issues regarding the music for WYD, as evidenced in an excerpt from this article in an Australian newspaper:

But Tracey Rowland, author of a recently published book about the Pope titled Ratzinger’s Faith, said ***Benedict was totally opposed to what he called “utility” music in the liturgy.

“Pope Benedict believes it’s unacceptable to use pop music as a carrot to get people to go to church,” she said. He was critical of rock music outside the mass as well, she said***.

This sounds fairly consistent with everything he has written when he was Cardinal Ratzinger to the present, as pope. I suspect that we will probably be seeing some changes in WYD. These might have some rammifications down the pipeline.