Rock Music at Mass

[Cat]

I was asking a legitimate liturgical question that I would bet most American Catholics don’t know the answer to. I wonder how many have ever heard of “Gaudete Sunday” and “Laetare Sunday” (let alone “Rorate Sunday”).

These days get their names from the Introit. How many Catholics know that… or know what an “introit” is?

And how would they know these things? Especially converts?

I don’t wish to sound whiny, but the fact is, you are expecting people to know something that they don’t even know exists, and then berating them for not knowing it.

Hey, I’ll bet YOU don’t know who Marigold Ice Unity is, do you? Well, why NOT?!!

Seriously, if Catholics are ignorant, it is because they are not being taught. Whose responsibility is it to teach Catholics these things? The priests? (Ha ha!–and what would the reaction be if they devoted their homily to “A Lesson on Liturgical Music??”)

The music teachers in the Catholic schools? Little secret–a lot of Catholics don’t attend or never attended Catholic schools, and most converts never attended them, either. So what are these Catholics supposed to do to make up for their lack of education?

The Music Director of the parish? WHEN?! Is he/she supposed to hold a “class” for all parishioners. I’ll bet you a year’s paycheck that not more than a dozen people would show up. Maybe a dozen IF they offered free beer before the class! And I’ll bet that half of them would leave before the class started once they drank their beer.

Speakers at Catholic Family Conference? There’s ANOTHER well-attended event (sarcasm).

At a parish mission? Well, that’s a good idea, but again, I would estimate that about one half of one percent of the parish members attend these missions, and these are the ones who probably already know all about liturgy and music.

Are Catholics just supposed to take it upon themselves to figure these things out? But that makes no sense! They don’t even know that they don’t know!

Ideally the Music Director would “introduce” these things about liturgical music during Masses a little at a time, but seriously, it would fly over the heads of half the congregation, who really don’t pay attention to the music anyway. And then we have all the parishes that don’t have a music director. I have the feeling that the majority of parishes are lucky to pay the light bills, let alone “hire” someone or find a willing volunteer who will take on the job of directing their music. Maybe this job should be assigned to Catholic music majors in college as a penance by their Confessors. I know that I would never consent to serve as a Liturgical Director in a Catholic Church–I can’t take the constant criticism and harping about Mass music. And I thought Protestants had serious music wars. They are Gandhis compared to Catholics and their music, at least on this forum. (Interestingly, I have never run across ANY criticism in real-life in any of the parishes where I play piano. Everyone is so grateful to have any music in Mass. Perhaps the ones who would normally complain are all at the TLM in our city, where they can be happy.)

Who?! What?! When?! Where?! How?! Be specific about how to educate the ignorant about the music.

 

[Joe_5859]

Quasimodo (Hunchback of Notre Dame) was so named because he was found on the church steps on Quasimodo Sunday, which term comes from the Introit for that Sunday (1st Sunday after Easter).

That’s a good piece of trivia to remember if I’m ever on Jeopardy. You learn something new every day. Thanks, Mike!

 

[VociMike]

That’s a good piece of trivia to remember if I’m ever on Jeopardy. You learn something new every day. Thanks, Mike!

Welcome.

Yes, it’s trivia. But it’s also more than trivia. It reflects the nature of the Propers, the ideal where the liturgy for every day is a unique and perfectly constructed single entity. And the faithful should not have had that taken from them.

 

[Sarabande]

Hey, I’ll bet YOU don’t know who Marigold Ice Unity is, do you? Well, why NOT?!!

I understand where you are coming from with this, but this is only something that people are really into figure skating would understand - and people who are faithful to either attending or actually skating should know this - so I don’t believe it’s that good of a comparison. It’s like asking people who don’t listen to opera, never sung opera and has never stepped foot in an opera house if they know what a coloratura soprano, a dramatic soprano, spinto soprano and a Wagnerian soprano is. If you are into this and faithful to being a singer or a lover of this music, then they would know.

As Catholics, since we are faithful and most of us into being Catholic, then we should know or at least try to learn what those little aspects of our faith and religion are. I just think Japhy is trying to say that. Unfortunately, you are right, many don’t know it because we weren’t educated on this. I had no idea of these things as well until I was older.

It is difficult to find those who are willing to be responsible in teaching these things. I’ve seen a number of homilies in rural farming parishes where a priest who was pastor of three parishes, made a point every Sunday after the homily to teach the Catechism. Almost everyone in the pews had a copy of their catechism and every week they went through it. Something I never got Catholic school from age 2 to 16 - and something that should have been taught especially in a highly populated Catholic area as mine.

(Ha ha!–and what would the reaction be if they devoted their homily to “A Lesson on Liturgical Music??”)

Believe it or not, I’ve attended a few masses in various parishes in the NY/NJ/PA area where after the homily, they did devote time to a lesson in liturigcal music. These parishes were packed parishes. But again, these states have a high amount of Catholics and they tended to be more conservative parishes.

The Music Director of the parish? WHEN?! Is he/she supposed to hold a “class” for all parishioners. I’ll bet you a year’s paycheck that not more than a dozen people would show up. Maybe a dozen IF they offered free beer before the class! And I’ll bet that half of them would leave before the class started once they drank their beer.

I’ll agree that having classes for parishioners wouldn’t be an answer. BUT introducing it at mass and then having a little explanation in the bulletin is helpful. Even having an explantion or little history on Gaudate Sunday, etc. would be interesting. Lots of people read the parish bulletin, so you can get a little bit of education there.

The other thought that I brought up in an earlier post is to let those who want to be involved in the music program attend workshops or classes. If there is a competant music director, he/she can hold it for those volunteer or hired musicians.

Speakers at Catholic Family Conference? There’s ANOTHER well-attended event (sarcasm).

How about the National Catholic Student Coalition conferences? The ones I attended in college, there were enormous. Surely, workshops and classes can be taught there and I know that students would attend them, having been to a couple of these conferences myself as a university student.

At a parish mission? Well, that’s a good idea, but again, I would estimate that about one half of one percent of the parish members attend these missions, and these are the ones who probably already know all about liturgy and music.

Ideally the Music Director would “introduce” these things about liturgical music during Masses a little at a time, but seriously, it would fly over the heads of half the congregation, who really don’t pay attention to the music anyway.

I really don’t believe people are dumb and that it would fly over most people’s heads. When we assume that of people, of course they’ll never live up to their own abililties because others believe so little in them. If my parents thought that of my two siblings who had learning disabilities (one of whom is dyslexic), they would have not done so well in their lives. Instead, they assumed that they were able to do more and worked hard to give them what they needed for their education and that gave them the confidence to persevere and to learn more than they thought they could know. I wouldn’t want that as an excuse to not even try to introduce this to the parishes. Perhaps older people may take a little longer to learn, etc., but the younger people will at least learn quickly or at least quicker. Thus when they are older and become parents, grandparents, they can help pass along this knowledge and belief to the next generations, making it easier on the parish as a whole.

Encourage the young adults who are are competant in their music abilities to be more involved in the music program. Offer to help them learn more about the liturgy and how to plan it.

Believe me, I do understand the frustration of not knowing how to go about these things. I used to look at everything negatively when it came to that. But over the past few years, approaching this with a positive outlook makes a world of good and gets things done. When we already look at it with sarcasm and negativity it becomes too daunting and that is one of the reasons why nothing gets done and learned. God bless.

 

[benedictgal]

Sarabande makes some really good points. Unfortunately, the problem comes when publishing houses like OCP decide to have musical workshops taught by their stable of composers, many of whom are respnsible for the banality of songs out there.

When my pastor took our choir to the Hispanic Pastoral Musicians conference in one of the southwestern states, I shuddered because I saw the song notes on the wall. They weren’t going to learn anything about sacred music, at all. The only thing they would learn about is Bob Hurd’s and David Haas’ flawed theology, which is reflected in their community-oriented music. I asked one of the choir members if they discussed any of Pope Benedict’s writings on music or if they went over what the documents actually said. No surprise there, they did not. Oh, but they had a lovely jam sessin with Bob Hurd and the rest of the composers.

I had a bitter taste of it during an FDLC conference. OCP had a significant amount of booth space. I picked up their newly minted edition of Flor y Canto and shuddered when I saw how badly they mangled the parts of the Mass to the point that the Gloria was chopped up and unrecognizable. The Agnus Dei written by Bob Hurd is just as bad.

The problem is that OCP is allowed unbridled domain over music and until someone points out to the emperor that his new clothes aren’t even clothes, then the proliferation of the “cult of the banal”, as Pope Benedict once wrote (and this includes putting Rock music into the Mass) will continue.

 

[japhy]

And how would they know these things? Especially converts? I don’t wish to sound whiny, but the fact is, you are expecting people to know something that they don’t even know exists, and then berating them for not knowing it.

Hey, don’t take it out on me, I’m not the one who changed things! If you want to blame someone (and I’m not saying you do), blame the pastors who failed to teach their flocks, blame the coalitions of musicians and liturgists who decided to ignore tradition and virtually eliminate the Propers, blame the RCIA teams for not teaching it. But blame is really only going to get us so far (and not very far at that), and as JReducation’s thread on bridging the chasm has shown me, it’s not going to help.

But while we’re at it, how would a Catholic today (especially a convert) necessarily know about Purgatory? Or that the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead? Or even that Latin is the language proper to the Roman Rite! Well, they wouldn’t unless they were taught. So if they don’t know it, that means they weren’t taught it.

Catechesis is what it all comes back to. Vatican II called for it, but it seems to have been lacking in some regards for the past several decades.

Seriously, if Catholics are ignorant, it is because they are not being taught.

AGH! You read my mind!

Whose responsibility is it to teach Catholics these things? The priests?

Survey says… I’m sorry if you’re averse to “copy and paste” responses, but I’d rather let the Church answer this one than just give my opinion on the matter:

From Sacrosanctum Concilium (1964):11. … Pastors of souls must therefore realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the mere observation of the laws governing valid and licit celebration; it is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite, and enriched by its effects.

1. … pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve [full and active participation by all the people], by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.
2. With zeal and patience, pastors of souls must promote the liturgical instruction of the faithful, and also their active participation in the liturgy both internally and externally, taking into account their age and condition, their way of life, and standard of religious culture. …
3. The two parts which, in a certain sense, go to make up the Mass, namely, the liturgy of the word and the eucharistic liturgy, are so closely connected with each other that they form but one single act of worship. Accordingly this sacred Synod strongly urges pastors of souls that, when instructing the faithful, they insistently teach them to take their part in the entire Mass, especially on Sundays and feasts of obligation.
   From Eucharistiae Participationem (1973):19. In view of all this, it is earnestly hoped that pastors of souls will take great care to instruct the faithful, rather than to introduce novelties into texts and rites of the sacred action. This will enable the people to understand better the nature, structure and elements of the celebration, especially the Eucharistic Prayer, and to participate more fully and more knowledgeably in the celebration itself.
   From Redemptionis Sacramentum (2004):80. The Eucharist is to be offered to the faithful, among other reasons, “as an antidote, by which we are freed from daily faults and preserved from mortal sins”, as is brought to light in various parts of the Mass. As for the Penitential Act placed at the beginning of Mass, it has the purpose of preparing all to be ready to celebrate the sacred mysteries; even so, “it lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance”, and cannot be regarded as a substitute for the Sacrament of Penance in remission of graver sins. Pastors of souls should take care to ensure diligent catechetical instruction, so that Christian doctrine is handed on to Christ’s faithful in this matter.
   So yes, pastors (and other priests, too!) should be teaching us. The homily is one place this could occur. But, of course, that means priests must be properly educated too! “Yet it would be futile to entertain any hopes of realizing this unless the pastors themselves, in the first place, become thoroughly imbued with the spirit and power of the liturgy, and undertake to give instruction about it. A prime need, therefore, is that attention be directed, first of all, to the liturgical instruction of the clergy.” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 14)

The call for improved liturgical and biblical catechesis has been echoed a dozen times since Vatican II. It’s embarrassing that it hasn’t set in.

So what happened to the formation of our clergy?!

The music teachers in the Catholic schools? … So what are these Catholics supposed to do to make up for their lack of education?

I’m sure the catechists who do Religious Education for the parish could help out. They might learn something in the process too!

The Music Director of the parish? WHEN?! Is he/she supposed to hold a “class” for all parishioners. I’ll bet you a year’s paycheck that not more than a dozen people would show up. Maybe a dozen IF they offered free beer before the class! And I’ll bet that half of them would leave before the class started once they drank their beer.

Doesn’t this make you wonder what in God’s Holy Name is wrong with the Church?

And I never said anything about a “class”. You can teach people in other ways. I’m not talking about turning the parish into a Gregorian choir! But I know it’s possible to teach parishioners new songs… why not old chants, too?

Speakers at Catholic Family Conference? There’s ANOTHER well-attended event (sarcasm).

Doesn’t this make you wonder what in God’s Holy Name is wrong with the Church?

Are Catholics just supposed to take it upon themselves to figure these things out? But that makes no sense! They don’t even know that they don’t know!

Some of us stumble upon it; I did. I didn’t know about this kind of stuff 18 months ago. No one instructed me, I found out about it by reading on my own. I’m not saying that’s the right way for everyone, but that there are some Catholics out there who can be turned onto this without prodding.

Ideally the Music Director would “introduce” these things about liturgical music during Masses a little at a time, but seriously, it would fly over the heads of half the congregation, who really don’t pay attention to the music anyway.

I think the “Gaudete/Laetare/Rorate” information would make more sense coming from a priest or deacon in a homily, or even at the very beginning of the Mass in the space provided to the priest for “introducing” the day’s liturgy.

Of course, this type of information is only half as potent when the tradition BEHIND the tradition is ignored. That is, when the Introit is no longer done, what’s the use of calling Gaudete Sunday by that name, or what’s the use of teaching the faithful about it?

Who?! What?! When?! Where?! How?! Be specific about how to educate the ignorant about the music.

I’m not a musician. Perhaps the people at the Church Music Association of America could help answer these questions.

 

[Cat]

I think the idea of learning about music during Mass is a great idea. It’s the time when the most people are present, and they are a captive audience.

But I’ve seen enough on this board to know why it would never work. I can just hear it now: "The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is NOT a time for a “music lesson!”

(Remember the thread on Powerpoint? Hoo boy.)

I laugh at the very idea of RCIA teachers including music lessons. Our sessions ran from 6:30-9:30 every Monday night from September through April 10, and every minute was packed with teaching. We even had a “liturgical expert” teach us a weekly lesson about the liturgy, and this was a person who was a musician!–but she didn’t teach us all the stuff about “propers” etc.

I’m sorry to be a gloomy Gus, but I think it’s pretty hopeless–UNLESS—make a video game out of it! Or even better, include it in a current video game (Mortal Combat? I’m one of the half-dozen people in the world who doesn’t play video games.)–and the player HAS to know all about liturgical music and be able to hum various chants to be able to move to the next level. THEN our kids and many adults would know this stuff.

Seriously, what needs to be done is a simple, short book written by a music teacher, someone who loves to teach, that explains all these things to someone at about a 3rd grade level. It could be sold as part of the CAF pamphlets. Anyone care to give it a try? I would buy one.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, the bulletin inserts are one good way to start. Believe it or not, people do read the bulletin. My PV gets upset because people read the bulletin during Mass.

Another thing is to ask your diocese to schedule in a class at the Pastoral Institute on Sacred Music, or, have your parish do something similar. In my old parish in Austin, they would have an adult class sandwiched in between the two big morning Masses. The topics varied from doctrine to the liturgy to social teaching.

Finally, you need to get the choir involved at some point. Have them begin teaching the faithful a new song and rehearsing it with them before Mass begins. And gradualy start introducing the faithful to Sacred Music by slowly inserting these pieces into the repertoire. That worked in my old parish in Austin, and, while we were handling the Cathedral, it worked very well there.

 

[japhy]

But I’ve seen enough on this board to know why it would never work. I can just hear it now: "The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is NOT a time for a “music lesson!” (Remember the thread on Powerpoint? Hoo boy.)

The Ordinary Form of the Mass says that the priest may give an introduction to the Mass just after the Greeting and before the Penitential Rite. That is one such place to briefly mention this sort of thing. But the homily is the best place to provide scriptural, liturgical, and theological catechesis. I envision a homily that contains something like:

Today is the Third Sunday of Advent, also called Gaudete Sunday. As our choir director mentioned just before the entrance procession, they were singing the traditional entrance chant – an antiphon called the “introit” – for this very day. If you paid close enough attention to the chant (the quality of which has been improving noticeably over the past several weeks!) you may have heard that the first word they sang was Gaudete.

That Latin word means “Rejoice”; the antiphon says “Rejoice in the Lord always; I say again: rejoice!” These were the words St. Paul wrote to the Philippians.

I laugh at the very idea of RCIA teachers including music lessons.

I’m sorry to hear that. But again, I’m not talking about “music lessons”, I’m talking about passing on our faith: you know, tradition. If the parish as a whole were already knee-deep in the musical heritage of the Church, the RCIA people would naturally pick it up as well.

We even had a “liturgical expert” teach us a weekly lesson about the liturgy, and this was a person who was a musician!–but she didn’t teach us all the stuff about “propers” etc.

It is possible she doesn’t know about them; it might also look a bit silly (or embarrassing) to teach you about something the Church does that your parish simply doesn’t do. Can you imagine hearing “the Church instructs us to bow our heads at the name of Jesus or the invocation of the Holy Trinity, and to make a profound bow during part of the Creed… but we don’t do that here, so nevermind.” I mean, with the propers, I can kind of understand it, because the GIRM does give four options… you could get away by saying “we haven’t implemented the singing of the propers”.

Seriously, what needs to be done is a simple, short book written by a music teacher, someone who loves to teach, that explains all these things to someone at about a 3rd grade level. It could be sold as part of the CAF pamphlets. Anyone care to give it a try? I would buy one.

I would again recommend checking the CMAA web site.​

 

[ibkc]

In my old parish in Austin, they would have an adult class sandwiched in between the two big morning Masses. The topics varied from doctrine to the liturgy to social teaching.

My parish does this. The classes are held in the parish school gym and they are always well-attended.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m sorry to be a gloomy Gus, but I think it’s pretty hopeless

I’m sorry that you feel hopeless on this topic. I’ll pray that things will lighten up for you in order to look at things fresh and easier. I totally understand… it does seem daunting, especially when things have appeared so negatively for a long time.

–UNLESS—make a video game out of it! Or even better, include it in a current video game (Mortal Combat? I’m one of the half-dozen people in the world who doesn’t play video games.)–and the player HAS to know all about liturgical music and be able to hum various chants to be able to move to the next level. THEN our kids and many adults would know this stuff.

Actually, this is what I did with my students when I taught: Definitely keep it from being too heady. When presenting it, be light and charming and show them that you actually do love what you are teaching. Kids see right through you when you’re not sincerely enthusiastic about it. We took a little time at the beginning or end of most of my music classes to teach the simple Latin chants. I also took time when rehearsing with the children’s choir during the lunch hour.

In my “Palestrina Scholars Club”, (Yes, I am an admitted dork in regards to this stuff, but luckily I’m a relatively young dork who loves kids and was very dedicated at the time to presenting everything I wasn’t fortunate in learning as a child in Catholic to my students.) my little “scholars” would meet after school once a month. I planned the whole year starting with Gregorian chant. The kids would separate in groups. In the first half the hour I’d present the music on cd, we’d go over the translations, if there were in another language. I’d explain how they would correspond in the mass, talk a little about the composer, we’d try to imagine what it would have been like attending mass during those various centuries. We’d go through some trivia about the composer, the time period, etc. as well. After that half, the two or three groups would then sit in their own tables and I would hold something sort of like a game show. Asking them questions about what they learned and talked about during the first half. I’d play the music to see what they recognized, etc. You wouldn’t believe how incredibly enthusiastic they were. Everyone raising their hands. “Oooo! Oooo! Oooo! Ms. ------- ! Pick me! Pick me!” Of course I’d have a prize for the team that got the most answers right. I’d have something for the boys and something for the girls - although I had more girls than boys. The parents would tell me how much their children really enjoyed this and thanked me for really investing time into them whether it was for the sacred music part or taking them on class trips to the orchestra for the kids.

It’s not “easy” as I did put a lot of work and time into these kids, but it is more simple than people think.

 

[japhy]

In my “Palestrina Scholars Club”…

Wow. That is absolutely fantastic!

 

[Sarabande]

Wow. That is absolutely fantastic!

Haha! Thanks. I’m thinking it was probably the only after- school sacred music club dedicated to learning about our sacred music heritage in the area. Unfortunately, I only taught and directed the music program at this little Catholic school (there were only about 15-20 kids to a grade from Pre-K to 8th grade) for 2 years. The club was started my second year after I got a good hold my first year of teaching. It was one of the most rewarding and challenging jobs I had. Those kids were the same kids who were chanting their hearts out at my wedding a few months later when some came to see me get married.

I thought about continuing on there after I got married and expand the club as well as our bell choir and voice choir, but we then got a new pastor who totally wanted to go a different direction to the way I was going. He wanted guitar masses for the kids and only wanted modern, contemporary music. We had a polite relationship, but do I need to say any more? I no longer wanted to work there, plus I decided to really dive head first into pursuing my music career in opera and recital work. BTW - the school was closed a year later apparently at his encouragement and to the sadness of the parish.

Perhaps when I’m older and finished with my secular music life and have more time on my hands, I’ll go back to this. I feel it was something I needed at the time to give me fulfilment, but to also see that I would not want to make a full career out of being a music director dealing with pastors and things of that sort. No wonder so many of my older colleagues are a little crazy sometimes. I used to always wonder at them when they’d talk about this stuff. (It’s a lot different from just being in the music program). After that experience I preferred to only be part of the program not the head of it.

 

[japhy]

… we then got a new pastor who totally wanted to go a different direction to the way I was going. He wanted guitar masses for the kids and only wanted modern, contemporary music. … the school was closed a year later apparently at his encouragement and to the sadness of the parish.

Sigh; just when did they stop teaching how to be pastoral in seminaries?

 

[Patrick60]

I can listen to rock music. In the past I listened to late 60’s, 70’s music. It was the only thing I ever listened to. After my conversion in 1979 I renounced all rock music. However, that renunciation was borne more out of a desire to “come out from among them and be separate.” I had 150 rock and roll albums which I destroyed(no fire and brimstone record burning rally for me–it was a quiet, personal decision based on a recognition that the message in the music was contrary to the life I had decided to live). I didn’t discriminate. I broke them all. Stuffed it all in two large garbage cans. I was 19.

Not long after I discovered Christian Contemporary, which though alot of it is done by Protestants, ministered to me as a Catholic. At the same time I discovered Classical music, something I would never have listened to in my rock and roll days.

I remember folk masses and they spoke to me at the time. However, at present I would walk two miles to go to a church with chant and traditional liturgy than I would walk two blocks to go to a church with a “rock” venue.
I can’t even listen to my contemporary Christian music anymore. It’s not that I’ve come to any conclusions about it one way or the other, it’s that it doesn’t lead me into worship. It doesn’t lead me into the presence of God. I am speaking only for myself. I still have all of my Christian rock music(Phil Keaggy, Randy Stonehill, DC Talk, etc, etc) but what I put into my MP3 player is primarily John Michael Talbot, monastic chant, or classical music. I don’t want to be entertained so much as to pray the music back to God. I can’t do that with alot of the contemporary pop music. And the only song I can pray back to God that was done by a secular artist is “Morning is Broken” by Cat Stevens.

At Mass? Never. Never once at any period of my life, even at age 19, would I ever have enjoyed a “rock” Mass. Folk mass, yes. Loud, amplified, booming music. Nope. However, I don’t think anyone should throw the baby out with the bath water. I think that having contemporary music coffeehouses, or even concerts(not in the church, but in a church hall or elsewhere) with the purpose of either worship or evangelism is very much NEEDED for youth.
So with all of that said, I really do think that a balanced approach to the music itself is necessary, It can be a useful tool in the right place and the right time.

 

[ethelzguy]

The sad truth is that publishing houses like OCP that continue to shove the banal and the trite and market it as sacred music (making this junk especially palpable to poor parishes by offering deep discounts and grants) don’t seem to have ever read what the authoritative Church documents actually say about music. Just becuase something has Catholic in the middle of its name doesn’t necessarily make it so.

In post #114 I asked you to please document where OCP has “made this junk especially palpable to poor parishes by offering deep discounts and grants”, including documentation that demonstrates that more “prosperous” parishes were offered lesser “discounts and grants” than “poor parishes” were?

I have yet to receive a response.

Accusing a publisher, or anyone else for that matter, of deliberately undermining the Liturgy of the Mass by targeting poor parishes with discounts and grants is serious business.

I ask you again. Please qualify your statement with documentation of the activity you allege, or retract it. An allegation of that nature that can not be substantiated constitutes libel.

TBL

 

[benedictgal]

In post #114 I asked you to please document where OCP has “made this junk especially palpable to poor parishes by offering deep discounts and grants”, including documentation that demonstrates that more “prosperous” parishes were offered lesser “discounts and grants” than “poor parishes” were?

I have yet to receive a response.

Accusing a publisher, or anyone else for that matter, of deliberately undermining the Liturgy of the Mass by targeting poor parishes with discounts and grants is serious business.

I ask you again. Please qualify your statement with documentation of the activity you allege, or retract it. An allegation of that nature that can not be substantiated constitutes libel.

TBL

I have asked you to provide authoritative documentatoin from the Holy See that substantiates your claims. You have not. The fact of the matter is that OCP is merely a publishing house with no ecclesial authority. The article I posted details just how its practices are conducted.

It’s interesting. We balk and holler at insurance companies who conduct bad practices and we complain about such companies to the Better Buiness Bureau. We laud the drive-by media when they run exposes on these unscrupulous businsses. But, when publishing houses like OCP push things that are not up to snuff with what the Church has repeatedly insisted in her liturgies, we are labled as slanderous and libelous, when, we are merely pointing out the same flaws in their practices as the mainstream media points out with mortage rates, gas price-gouging and other unsavory things.

[Edited]

 

[ethelzguy]

I have asked you to provide authoritative documentatoin from the Holy See that substantiates your claims. You have not. The fact of the matter is that OCP is merely a publishing house with no ecclesial authority. The article I posted details just how its practices are conducted.

It’s interesting. We balk and holler at insurance companies who conduct bad practices and we complain about such companies to the Better Buiness Bureau. We laud the drive-by media when they run exposes on these unscrupulous businsses. But, when publishing houses like OCP push things that are not up to snuff with what the Church has repeatedly insisted in her liturgies, we are labled as slanderous and libelous, when, we are merely pointing out the same flaws in their practices as the mainstream media points out with mortage rates, gas price-gouging and other unsavory things.

[Edited]

[Edited] You made a specific allegation against a publisher. I have asked you to document your claim or retract it.

This has nothing to do with our differing opinions as to what music and or instruments are acceptable or preferred at Mass. I am solely addressing your allegation that OCP targets poor parishes through grants and discounts to undermine the Liturgy of the Mass.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Would you please document where OCP has “made this junk especially palpable to poor parishes by offering deep discounts and grants”, including documentation that demonstrates that more “prosperous” parishes were offered lesser “discounts and grants” than “poor parishes” were?

I am concerned by the possible libelous nature of the above remarks.

Thanks.

I agree. There were also some claims about seminaries which were quite questionable at best.

Lux

 

[Sarabande]

I just found this paper or article that has some information on the history of sacred music in both Protestant and Catholic churches -although it has more on Catholic music. Pages 5-10 are especially informative - basically giving a little more detail to what I mentioned in previous posts about how what is happening today in sacred music is nothing new and how popes and others helped reign in and refined the music in the past, etc. for mass. (I’ve mentioned a few times in other threads about how polyphony was originally banned at mass, then when it was finally refined, it became accepted. A little is mentioned on that in those pages.)

It even has tables that show the Medieval Solemn Mass (for anyone interested)

ccc.strophyx.com/ccc57.pdf

There is an article from 11-17 called “The Hidden Hand Behind Bad Catholic Music”. Whether or not a person agrees with it, it is something to read and take it for what it’s worth. But, even if one does not agree with that article, one can still get a lot out of pages 1-10 as there is good historical info that I’ve read in my other readings on the history of sacred music.

Happy reading!