Rock=The Devil's Music?

[Maxply]

Northstar3 has brought up a very important point (recalling Plato’s discussion on musical modes). The beat of the music itself is a factor, as well as lyrics.

With that said, I’ll take the next step. There certainly are situations in which listening to sexy music puts you in the mood in the wrong conditions (e.g., with someone else’s wife!). But I would think there is nothing wrong with listening, say, to Barry White or some sultry torch singer, after having a bottle of wine with your wife!

But maybe I’m wrong; haven’t thought it through entirely.

 

[northstar3]

I came across this short video on youtube, and I guess it kinda conveys what I was trying to say: youtube.com/watch?v=NPNomC8ON08

 

[tobias]

But what about Mortification?

There is some disagreement as the nature of this specific sub-genre. Typically, death metal is thrash with a lyrical fixation on death. I guess some of their songs could be interpreted as such, but as a whole I think its a stretch.

 

[Joe_5859]

There is some disagreement as the nature of this specific sub-genre. Typically, death metal is thrash with a lyrical fixation on death. I guess some of their songs could be interpreted as such, but as a whole I think its a stretch.

I will defer to you on this. I stick more with the prog/power metal, so I’m not as familiar with the finer sub-genre distinctions in the thrash/death metal scene. I tend to classify all metal with the growly voice as “death metal” which is probably not accurate.

The comment was my attempt at humor.

 

[grandfather]

We can not compartmentalize the different aspects of culture, our or others. Is the type of music a culture produces and embraces more about the culture or the music. Does the music drive the culture or does the culture drive the music?

Music is one aspect of cultural expression. There is art, architecture, landscape design, fashion, literature, manners and so on. I don’t think any of this is isolated. So modern music and modern art are expressions of the same thing. They can express beauty, chaos, order, disorder, violence, love, hate, tranquility or storm.

The word music is taken from muse, or spirit. The ancients believed that it was a link to the spiritual dimension. Indeed it is. It takes you there.

When Mary appeared in Fatima she said that the coming century would be given over to the devil, and it has been a sewer of a century. Millions and millions were killed in wars and by abortion. Materialism and selfishness, over service dominated and drove people. Relitavism gripped many. Sexual license and perversion became the norm. Drug use became almost epidemic. Divorce is epidemic.

The music of this culture is reflective of all of this. It is only part of the cultural chaos we live in. It is not about whether some people like it or not. Some people like drugs. Some find a perverse beauty in violence. The culture is sick and so its music is an expression of the sickness.

 

[tobias]

I will defer to you on this. I stick more with the prog/power metal, so I’m not as familiar with the finer sub-genre distinctions in the thrash/death metal scene. I tend to classify all metal with the growly voice as “death metal” which is probably not accurate.

The comment was my attempt at humor.

That was good!

 

[tobias]

We can not compartmentalize the different aspects of culture, our or others. Is the type of music a culture produces and embraces more about the culture or the music. Does the music drive the culture or does the culture drive the music?

Music is one aspect of cultural expression. There is art, architecture, landscape design, fashion, literature, manners and so on. I don’t think any of this is isolated. So modern music and modern art are expressions of the same thing. They can express beauty, chaos, order, disorder, violence, love, hate, tranquility or storm.

The word music is taken from muse, or spirit. The ancients believed that it was a link to the spiritual dimension. Indeed it is. It takes you there.

When Mary appeared in Fatima she said that the coming century would be given over to the devil, and it has been a sewer of a century. Millions and millions were killed in wars and by abortion. Materialism and selfishness, over service dominated and drove people. Relitavism gripped many. Sexual license and perversion became the norm. Drug use became almost epidemic. Divorce is epidemic.

The music of this culture is reflective of all of this. It is only part of the cultural chaos we live in. It is not about whether some people like it or not. Some people like drugs. Some find a perverse beauty in violence. The culture is sick and so its music is an expression of the sickness.

Good post. I understand your perspective, yet I look back through our catholic history and teaching and can’t help but see the CC as embracing that which is good and rejecting that which is not, but not always with the greatest timing. Some of Bach’s music was considered to sound like Devil music. I can hardly fathom how that was the perception.
It is Catholic teaching that man is basically good, so even though sick with sin can produce good (even the sickest of individuals can procreate and life is a good). I own many CD’s in which I only listen to one song, because I find it to be the only good on said album. In days past I would make mix tapes, thankfully it is a lot easier with an mp3 player. My children don’t like that I constantly switch stations, but I only have time for good ‘good’ music (if that makes sense).
I lost the battle with my oldest son about only listening to music about God. I will not make that mistake with my other children, though they are not yet equiped to recognize all the time what lyrics are good and which are not, I guide, disallow songs, point out the what lyrics mean, and of course give example. To my younger son, who likes metal, I like to point out when a song is ‘cheap’. The first time I did it I changed the radio station in the car and he said ‘hey, I like that song.’ I replied ‘Yeah, the music sounds great, but the lyrics are cheap.’ He wanted to know what that meant and I simply said ’ well anyone can write lyrics like that, and it just plays to the lowext part of us.’ He got it, once I pointed it out he actually became selective about music at 10. I’ve not been able to get that across to my 19 year old, because I started with him overbearing.
Sorry, sounds like a rant.

All good can be abused, If we can’t point to all goods where they be, don’t we loose credibility as the Church founded by the good?

 

[CTA1967]

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years, and my husband was raised Pentecostal.

The main reason why Christians are suspicious of rock is that it is, by definition of rockers themselves, the “music of rebellion.” And as you know, rebellion was the sin that felled Lucifer and his demons.

I think that even among Christian rockers (musicians and fans) there is an element of “rebellion.” There is the idea that “other Christians have to accept us” and “rock music IS just as good as other Christian music.”

I personally do not believe that any musical style is “bad” or “good.” I realize that this is not the traditional Catholic viewpoint, which holds that certain music is appropriate for the liturgy and certain music is not. I believe that’s true of certain songs, but not of musical styles. It’s just my opinion, though, and I would submit to the Church if they were to ban “rock” music–IF they could pin down what actually constitutes “rock” music! (Bwoo ha ha!) So far, the Church has remained rather non-committal about musical styles and I’m GLAD! I think this shows wisdom, since it is hard to define musical styles.

To expand on this, there’s a really good post (#10) by Cat on this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=126255

I don’t agree that rock music has a “beat” that is any more dangerous than many other forms of music.

I am a pianist, and I personally believe that many of the Baroque pieces have an incessant beat that is quite riveting. My husband will not listen to classical music in the car because of the driving beat.

I find that Cajun music has a very definite and repetitive beat, as does a lot of the country music, especially Texas swing and rockabilly.

A lot of children’s music has a definite beat that is rather annoying at times because of it’s constancy.

A beat is not evil. Listen to life–it all has a beat. Our hearts, the machinery at our workplaces (I work in a hospital lab), clocks, engines, birds in the trees, the frig.

A beat is what is call “amoral.” There is no morality or lack of morality attached to a beat.

I also think that there is nothing inherently good about a “melody line” in music. Much of the music of other cultures has discordance in the melody such that Westerners like us can’t even find the melody. Consider Gaelic music–this music has not only a driving beat, but a repetitive drone in the background and often a harsh, guttural melody.

Again, melody is “amoral.”

As a pianist, I consider rock music to be one of the most complex forms of music. I had to play a rock piece in the last choir concert I played for, and it was the hardest piece in the program.

Now after saying all this, I must say that I don’t particularly like a lot of rock music, especially the pablumic “pop” music that many Christians seem to cherish. But I respect it as a music form even if it is not my personal choice.

And I don’t care for polka much either, but maybe if I could dance, I would like it more. Darn Baptist upbringing! (Dancing was forbidden while I was growing up.)

That brings up an issue–IMO, rock music is a musical form that demands MOVEMENT. My daughter spent a year in an Assemblies of God high school which played rock music, but forbade dancing. She often said, “WHY do they play dance music, but not allow us to dance?!”

So I think that this needs to be considered when Christians bring in the rock music. There will be dancing. It is impossible to prevent it. Now if the dancing is “decent,” fine. But if the dancing will cause young men to sin in their minds, is that OK? On the other hand, I personally believe that young men can sin in ANY situation–look at the reputation that Catholic school uniforms has (sexy). So I don’t think it’s realistic to eliminate everything that tempts a young man.

And wouldn’t listening to classical music be a sin also if it’s defined by rebellion? Some rather influential composers rebelled against traditional Catholic values and adopted Freemasonry.

By the way, if you want to hear really damaging music, just try listening to Edgar Varese. Even more dissonant than alternative rock, in my opinion (I dislike both). It’s literally painful for me to listen to.

 

[grandfather]

By the way, if you want to hear really damaging music, just try listening to Edgar Varese. Even more dissonant than alternative rock, in my opinion (I dislike both).

Are you agreeing that some music can cause damage?

 

[CTA1967]

Are you agreeing that some music can cause damage?

It depends on your personal preferences and what sorts of things distract you. Random crescendos of augmented fourths and minor seconds bother me. “Time” by Pink Floyd does not.

Oh yeah, the volume at which you play your music can be a significant factor.

 

[Belgarion]

Soem rock can be the devil’s music…heck, any music can be diabolical in nature.
Whether its promoting sin, or devil worship.

Its not restricted to metal, or rock.

Rap is another one that glorifies sin.

I’m a fan of all type of music. I can tolerate counrty, lol. Pop, rock, etc I love classical.
but NOT RAP! Will smith is the only thing I can handle on that front.

But I can say that ANY music that promotes sin or evil is bad and its not limited to rock.

Rock can be awesome.

 

[CTA1967]

But I can say that ANY music that promotes sin or evil is bad and its not limited to rock.

Right, what about all those American folk ballads that glorified guys like Jesse james?

 

[grandfather]

It depends on your personal preferences and what sorts of things distract you. Random crescendos of augmented fourths and minor seconds bother me. “Time” by Pink Floyd does not.

Oh yeah, the volume at which you play your music can be a significant factor.

So you agree that some music can cause damage. I am not asking which music, or about personal preferences.

 

[CTA1967]

So you agree that some music can cause damage. I am not asking which music, or about personal preferences.

Yes, if your definition of damage is the same as mine in this case. By damage, I mean a subjective feeling of discomfort of morals or peace of mind. Maybe I should have said that instead of making a sarcastic reference.

 

[grandfather]

Yes, if your definition of damage is the same as mine in this case. By damage, I mean a subjective feeling of discomfort of morals or peace of mind. Maybe I should have said that instead of making a sarcastic reference.

My definition of damage is spiritual damage. It hurts the soul. It puts the soul in a place that is not good for it.

If it is true that some music can cause damage then it makes sense to not listen to it. Why experience sometihng that inflicts damage? It must be that some people like being damaged, or they would not subject themselves to it.

People do this in other ways. Some people take harmful drugs. They like what hurts them. In fact the people who like damaging music often take damaging drugs, or vice versa.

People who make damaging music often are inspired by drugs.

If music can cause spiritual damage it is a spiritual thing or force.

But it can also lift people up, or edify their souls.

It is a matter of which is which. People who like damaging music will say it does not hurt them. They like what it does to them and say it is harmless.

 

[CTA1967]

People who like damaging music will say it does not hurt them.

Could you please clarify? That sounds rather paradoxical. And what would you consider “damaging”? And could I ask if you are a musician and/or have knowledge of music theory to justify your position?

By the way, alcohol is also a drug. There were plenty of classical composers who abused alcohol. What about their music?

And if you judge a genre of music by if the listeners use drugs, you should see how many people on the internet say how great getting high while listening to classical music is.

 

[grandfather]

Could you please clarify? That sounds rather paradoxical. And what would you consider “damaging”?

 

[CTA1967]

No, I do not take drugs and I cannot justify anybody’s consumption of illegal substances (or overconsumption of legal substances), but I do play certain kinds of rock music (of course, my musical tastes are definitely not limited to it). And thank you for clarifying. I agree that “If someone listened to music and became enraged and violent that would be damaging”. Although, I would find it rather debatable to make a blanket statement like that to describe an entire genre, especially when genre lines aren’t always clear cut. Probably the only way I would become enraged and violent as a result of music would be yelling at someone to turn down the stereo.

 

[grandfather]

No, I do not take drugs and I cannot justify anybody’s consumption of illegal substances (or overconsumption of legal substances), but I do play certain kinds of rock music (of course, my musical tastes are definitely not limited to it). And thank you for clarifying. I agree that “If someone listened to music and became enraged and violent that would be damaging”. Although, I would find it rather debatable to make a blanket statement like that to describe an entire genre, especially when genre lines aren’t always clear cut. Probably the only way I would become enraged and violent as a result of music would be yelling at someone to turn down the stereo.

I used violence as an example. Music and evoke the range of human emothions and passions. It can lift people to worship God or pull them into evil. So far I have not said anything that I can recall about genre. The past decades in popular music and musicians do reflect the culture however. There have been many addicts and suicides, to say nothing of the sexual licentiousness that goes with the lifestyle. You know a tree by its fruits.

 

[CTA1967]

sexual licentiousness

Tchaikovsky.