Rohr video: What did Jesus Really Teach?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mystical_Seeker
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mystical_Seeker

Guest
Franciscan Fr. Richard Rohr challenges some of the ways we think about our religious focus…

What Did Jesus Really Teach

According to Rohr in this video, the real “non-negotiables” according to Jesus are, to love God and love neighbor.

Politically speaking is one thing. But when we are trying to be transformed in the image of Christ, maybe we should focus on the specks in our own eyes, before telling other people they have lumberyards in theirs.

This thread is dedicated to those who dislike Rohr. Please make an attempt to focus comments on the content of the subject video.

But it isn’t about Rohr. It’s about the content of this particular video. Dragging up the old diatribe about Rohr and new age, etc. is off-topic and you can start your own thread if you want to wallow through all that. If that’s too difficult for you, then you need to examine your motivation for providing it.

MS
 
It sounds as though he is trying to rationalize abortion and government support for abortion. Very gravely sinful. To say that Jesus forgives is correct, but He expects us to stop killing innocent children first.
 
According to Rohr in this video, the real “non-negotiables” according to Jesus are, to love God and love neighbor.
Hi MS.
First, I am not used to being inoculated against a particular thinking before starting a discussion.

Second, there are no “negotiables”. Every word from Christ is true and important. To assert that only certain teachings are really non-negotiable seems to imply that the other teachings are negotiable.

And Third, Father Rohr said
And even the Eucharist itself, is used, at least in my Catholic Church, is used to find the worthy, the pure, the true members, when every time that Jesus eats, He seems to be eating with the wrong people.
Here. Father Rohr teaches away from the real presence. He is saying that the Eucharist is a meal. Christ taught us that it is a meal, but it is also His body soul and divinity. Consuming the Eucharist unworthily is a sacrilege. We are trying to aid people by keeping them from committing mortal sin. We are not trying to find the pure and true members.
 
Hi MS.
First, I am not used to being inoculated against a particular thinking before starting a discussion.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Rohr is a special case. If you haven’t seen a “Rohr war” yet then you’re really missing out. If this thread doesn’t end up featuring one, I will be surprised.
Second, there are no “negotiables”. Every word from Christ is true and important. To assert that only certain teachings are really non-negotiable seems to imply that the other teachings are negotiable.
👍
And Third, Father Rohr said
Here. Father Rohr teaches away from the real presence. He is saying that the Eucharist is a meal. Christ taught us that it is a meal, but it is also His body soul and divinity. Consuming the Eucharist unworthily is a sacrilege. We are trying to aid people by keeping them from committing mortal sin. We are not trying to find the pure and true members.
You raise some valid point. He says it’s divisive, but he doesn’t say it isn’t the Body and Blood.

But I’ve wondered for a long time when people say to stay away from sinners because after all WWJD? Well, Jesus would eat with the sinners and according to Rohr, that contributed toward his worldly body’s demise.

Can you imagine Jesus asking people in line if they are REALLY worthy to deserve to eat with Him? Or to participate in His body? You’d think the first person Jesus would have excluded would be Judas.

St. Teresa of Avila made some pretty good statements (I can’t find now sorry butt I’ll return with them if I do) about mortal v. venial sin. Her writing was the first time I’ve felt validated in what I personally had come to believe – the distinction is really immaterial when it comes to whether a particular act offense God is “serious indeed”. This may be core Church teaching, but why? Why is it that I can have just as bad an attitude about God and flippantly sin against him as you do and we both act on it, but if it isn’t a “grave matter” offense then it’s OK for me to receive Christ and not for the other person?

Don’t “sinners” need Jesus more than “the righteous”? Or maybe it isn’t about need but that “the righteous” who have no perceived need for mercy isn’t going to be helped anyway? In the hospital, those who seems to have died but there is still a chance, get the first and most attentive treatment. In church we say “we are not worthy … shall be healed” but apparently that only works if our sins fall into certain categories.

Every day both here and on another site, I see the scrupulous struggling with their faith and scared for their everlasting souls to approach Jesus in Communion. These people are troubled, and have an intense desire for union with God – but they take the last seats and stay away for the “more righteous” to go in their stead. And even to presume to be worthy to receive Jesus, itself seems like a sin of pride.

This Lent I fasted from the Eucharist, except for the graduation Mass in the seminary where my son graduated in May. I did it partly in honor of friends who are scrupulous, as much as self-denial. These are people who literally “fear God” more than anybody else and yet they are the ones who are not receiving Him to defer to the “more worthy”. This is the first I told anybody, and I don’t even think my son would really understand so I’m not planning to tell him. When I have questions and issues I take them to my own pastor, with whom I discuss faith issues and many other things one-on-one maybe once a week. He helps me understand things that I don’t get, and encourages me to pursue those things that I do – regardless of the odds I may be up against. He may give me strategy advice, such as when not to say what. :rolleyes:

I’m only saying it now to give you some idea of the depth of interest I have in this particular issue of Eucharist Divisiveness and hope you can see it isn’t because of any lack of zeal I have in this Church… this is the institution that my son will participate in operating after I die; surely I should not wish to harm the Church.
 
First off, Jesus wasn’t crucified because of who he ate with. He was crucified because he claimed to be God. Which meant his words on social order superseded that of the Sanhedrin and the leadership imposed by Rome.

Second, eating with the poorest of the poor would mean those so enamored by their desire for pleasure and convenience ought to be opening their dinner tables to the new life that is created by their willingness to “have sex” at the expense of the poorest and most fragile of the poor, children in the womb. You might say women who endorse a “pro choice” lifestyle are clearly not willing to share their tables nor the milk from their breasts with these poor helpless creatures they have created. Speaking of sharing meals with the unwanted - if that is going to be lauded as the highest principle then the justification for abortion is precisely an unwillingness to share a home or table with the new life created by those so unwilling.

Which, speaking of non-violence, leads to the fact that dismembering babies in the womb would seem to be the most violent and pernicious act of all - perpetrating death precisely because the victims are so vulnerable and without voice.

The beatitudes speak of the poor being blessed, these are the most poor and helpless that are being denied a “place at the table” from their very beginning.

If Rohr was taking his own words seriously, he should be seeing the connection between the Beatitudes and pro-life issues and declaring those connections clearly instead of masking modern libertarianism behind Gospel values.

Rohr just isn’t very convincing nor compelling precisely because he doesn’t compel anyone to change anything of what they are doing but would instead welcome thieves, murderers, rapists and tyrants (precisely as thieves, murderers, rapists and tyrants) under the name of “inclusion.”

The kind of “inclusion” Rohr calls for is the kind advocated by those in the City of Man and in the Roman Empire before its conversion to Christianity - the kind that tolerates anything and everything so long as it doesn’t interfere with the whims and pleasures of the ruling elite.
 
One can discuss Fr. Rohr with the Apologists at Catholic Answers (our hosts here!)- they can relay to you what the various problematic aspects of his Teachings etc are. He has been mentioned a number of times over the years on the Catholic Answers radio show.

Here is from one of the Apologists from this time last year (perhaps something has changed in a year…but I cannot say):

Jun 10, '14, 2:44 pm

Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist

Hi,

Fr. Richard Rohr is a Franciscan who seems to have really fallen off the rails with regard to his fidelity to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I would never encourage anyone to go on one of his retreats.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3611&CFID=59882772&CFTOKEN=73063193

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12073470&highlight=rohr#post12073470
 
First off, Jesus wasn’t crucified because of who he ate with. He was crucified because he claimed to be God. Which meant his words on social order superseded that of the Sanhedrin and the leadership imposed by Rome.
Note that when he was nearly stoned for claiming to be God, He pointed out that scripture refers to all who have received His message as “gods”. So the problem wasn’t that He was claiming to be God, but their lack of understanding of their own scripture which they were interpreting dogmatically because that’s what the “law of sin and death” (see Rom 7) called for. They would kill for this lack of understanding; today we just use public humiliation rather than killing, when we don’t like what they say and can’t prove them wrong on scriptural grounds.

John 10:24-36
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify to me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,[m] and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

This has been a problem for a long time. People hurt each other in the name of God, presumably because He wanted us to. 😦
Second, eating with the poorest of the poor would mean those so enamored by their desire for pleasure and convenience ought to be opening their dinner tables to the new life that is created by their willingness to “have sex” at the expense of the poorest and most fragile of the poor, children in the womb. You might say women who endorse a “pro choice” lifestyle are clearly not willing to share their tables nor the milk from their breasts with these poor helpless creatures they have created. Speaking of sharing meals with the unwanted - if that is going to be lauded as the highest principle then the justification for abortion is precisely an unwillingness to share a home or table with the new life created by those so unwilling.
I like your idea about “pro choice” lifestyle and sharing milk from babies. That plays into the “contraceptive mentality”.

But how does this tie in with Rohr’s claims about Jesus eating with sinners? Do you think Jesus would refuse to eat with pro-choicers?

(continued)
 
(continued)
Which, speaking of non-violence, leads to the fact that dismembering babies in the womb would seem to be the most violent and pernicious act of all - perpetrating death precisely because the victims are so vulnerable and without voice.
Ok, this may be true. But I’d like to hear why “innocent life” is more precious than the life of a sinner. Why don’t we get just as upset about all killing as this killing?
The beatitudes speak of the poor being blessed, these are the most poor and helpless that are being denied a “place at the table” from their very beginning.
Yes, but to be fair, it was not the teachings of the Church that prevented these from reaching the table. We wait until they sin so we have an excuse to exclude them?
If Rohr was taking his own words seriously, he should be seeing the connection between the Beatitudes and pro-life issues and declaring those connections clearly instead of masking modern libertarianism behind Gospel values.
Did Rohr ever say anything in support of abortion? I don’t recall him ever doing so. He just seems to be aligned with our current pope, in that we need to adjust our priorities.

As a former elected conservative pro-life Republican, first in the 1994 “Contract with America” takeover of congress, I have had the experience of discussing strategy with them. In my state, we have a “moderate” governor who publicly said he would sign a bill outlawing late term abortions. I even told my fellow conservatives to go ahead and include the “heath of the mother” along with “life of the mother” exceptions – because the governor publicly and convincingly said he would veto the bill without it. But my voice was squelched because it wasn’t Radical Enough – we have to be “non-negotiable” – well guess what the governor vetoed it and that was our last chance to even come that close. So yeah, maybe the clause would be abused by loose definitions of “mental health” for example, but it’s a starting point. You take what you get and go from there.

In politics, “non-negotiable” means you either have enough force to completely overrun the opposition, which is extremely rare and certainly not the case for Pro Life, or you don’t do anything. So their insistence on being Non-Negotiable failed to save babies, while if they had but added the one clause, then we could address potential abuses.

My personal opinion, knowing some of the personalities involved, is that the “moderate” Republican governor was actually pro-abort and didn’t want to limit abortions at all. But as a Republican he couldn’t say that in public although he was a member of a pro-choice faction of the Republicans. He knew very well he they would never call his bluff, so he got credit for having been willing to save babies, if only the “non-negotiable” people had just been a little more reasonable.

So no babies were saved, and the governor was able to point to the foolishness of pro-lifers and their non-negotiable demands to sign it without the clause. They gave him the bill, he vetoed it, and got to look “moderate” while stopping pro-lifers in their tracks. “Non-negotiable” makes for a great moral strategy, but not a political one.

Come to think of it, I can’t remember a time when Jesus said to deal with sin by petitioning the government authorities to stop others from sinning. Not saying we shouldn’t, but that was obviously not His “core teachings”.
Rohr just isn’t very convincing nor compelling precisely because he doesn’t compel anyone to change anything of what they are doing but would instead welcome thieves, murderers, rapists and tyrants (precisely as thieves, murderers, rapists and tyrants) under the name of “inclusion.”
The kind of “inclusion” Rohr calls for is the kind advocated by those in the City of Man and in the Roman Empire before its conversion to Christianity - the kind that tolerates anything and everything so long as it doesn’t interfere with the whims and pleasures of the ruling elite.
This is an interesting take on Rohr. You may find that if you look into it more, Rohr is calling more than anyone for people to change their hearts and look at things in a new way, not just the outward behavior.

To change their hearts, the way Jesus said. Posturing and being visibly angry and offended and outraged, may or may not ever see success in the political arena, but I challenge it builds our pride and self-righteousness as well.

Pope Francis got it right IMO, which makes it easier for me to be aligned with Rome. 👍
 
One can discuss Fr. Rohr with the Apologists at Catholic Answers (our hosts here!)- they can relay to you what the various problematic aspects of his Teachings etc are. He has been mentioned a number of times over the years on the Catholic Answers radio show.

Here is from one of the Apologists from this time last year (perhaps something has changed in a year…but I cannot say):

Jun 10, '14, 2:44 pm

Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist

Hi,

Fr. Richard Rohr is a Franciscan who seems to have really fallen off the rails with regard to his fidelity to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I would never encourage anyone to go on one of his retreats.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3611&CFID=59882772&CFTOKEN=73063193

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12073470&highlight=rohr#post12073470
Yeah, I know about that. I’m sorry Fr. Serpa feels the way he does. Or at least at that time he did. 🤷

MS
 
Yeah, I know about that. I’m sorry Fr. Serpa feels the way he does. Or at least at that time he did. 🤷

MS
Such is not about how someone feels.

One can not simply come to Catholic Answers and dismiss out of hand what the Professional Apologists (and note as I mention Fr. Rohr has come up various times on Catholic Answers shows - and not in an endorsing way) have answered - as “a feeling”.
 
Such is not about how someone feels.

One can not simply come to Catholic Answers and dismiss out of hand what the Professional Apologists (and note as I mention Fr. Rohr has come up various times on Catholic Answers shows - and not in an endorsing way) have answered - as “a feeling”.
Does he have objective proof that Rohr was “on the rails” and then “got off”?

Maybe I should have said, “I’m sorry he is of that opinion.” Clearly he was talking metaphorically and reflecting his feelings, but “opinion” works just as well.

And yes I can come here and challenge what a professional apologist posts – I just did.

We are all human, and perhaps he and I could come to terms if we had an interactive discussion, but it isn’t that way. If I get reprimanded for disagreeing with an apologist on his own site, then so be it. If there is no interactive discussion allowed, then if I get barred from posting it will be No Loss to me, right? And everybody could relax again because they won’t have the Big and Important MS on their case. 😉
 
Does he have objective proof that Rohr was “on the rails” and then “got off”?
He had added an article from a Theologian - but it seems now when I click that link the service brings one to a different article than I saw last night in Fathers link - it is though on him and others (have not read it yet)

edit - since I do not know which article that Father intended -the fact that the URL changed over night leaves doubt - so I removed the link - one would have to contact Father to find out what one he pointed to last June.
One can discuss Fr. Rohr with the Apologists at Catholic Answers (our hosts here!)- they can relay to you what the various problematic aspects of his Teachings etc are. ]
Feel free to call them or discuss with them these questions. I simply forwarded their response.

Have a blessed day - and may the Sacred Heart of Jesus our Lord - fill you with great joy this feast.
 
He had added an article from a Theologian - but it seems now when I click that link the service brings one to a different article than I saw last night in Fathers link - it is though on him and others (have not read it yet)

update: This is I believe the article that was linked last night to his post:catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6819&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=1535116

It is from 2006 (so there may be some changes since then) by: The Rev. Bryce Sibley, STL, who holds a Licentiate degree from the John Paul II Institute for Marriage and the Family in Rome

But you would have to contact him* to be sure it was the one he intended*. For it seems that site has several of them and the url got changed.

Feel free to call them or discuss with them these questions. I simply forwarded their response.

Have a blessed day - and may the Sacred Heart of Jesus our Lord - fill you with great joy this feast.
Thank you for that information; I’ll look at them later. For now, I’ve been obsessing over the computer long enough I’d better go “do stuff” for a while.

Peace, love, and joy to you as well.

MS
 
From what I’ve seen, there were accusations against Fr Rohr, which seemed to have been found to be unfounded and retracted.

I don’t know one way or another.

I have subscribed to Fr Rohr’s daily meditations of Facebook and for the most part they are very good.

However, I had a few that I questioned what he was trying to say, and one seemed to lean on universal salvation, which I thought was a condemned heresy.

There is also an issue where he said that the Incarnation, (Christmas) was the more important part of salvation that that of the Cross and Easter resurrection.

On this I had to disagree. The early Church didn’t celebrate Christmas, but they did the death and resurrection of Jesus as the source of our salvation.

That being said, Fr Rohr;s meditations are now on St Francis of Assisi and of course he himself being a Franciscan, is spot on.

Jim
 
However, I had a few that I questioned what he was trying to say, and one seemed to lean on universal salvation, which I thought was a condemned heresy.
Yeah I’m guessing he’s pretty careful with his specific wording, being the scholar he is.

But there are some things, like what I’ve heard he does during Mass…

One guy that used to post here told me he went to a retreat with Rohr and asked him to his face why he says certain kinds of things that draw fire to himself. I don’t remember what he said; maybe I’ll look him up and ask him. I have seen Rohr do videos though, addressing the issue of whether he is a heretic. Once he said it tongue-in-cheek, and the video of that snippet was all over “Rohr ADMITS he’s a heretic” …

Good Humor, all being guided by the Holy Spirit – on those (rare) days my ego doesn’t convince me otherwise. 😃

MS
 
I don’t see a problem with addressing what appears to be heresy from him. We can learn from that.

I do see a problem with the smoke screen approach “everybody stay away from this guy because he’s dangerous” – yeah well who among us is a purely “good” tree or a “bad” tree?

That reminds me of something I recently recognized. The “good tree” and “bad tree” are more likely schemata that have grown out of other seeds of thought and underlie our behavior, and any given person is subject to getting interested in either kind.

Another reason not to “take up the weeds” – we see a weed in Rohr and want to pull it up, but to human beings of the time that means to kill the sinner; problem is that takes the wheat with it.

But despite hundreds of thousands, at least, who have found healing and peace through Rohr’s work, we want to burn down the field because we see a weed and ignore the wheat that surrounds it. Kind of like how God was before Abraham talked Him into a little more compassion in the “human” sense. 😉
 
Too bad. I was looking forward to your original idea of discussing the video.
Thank you for your interest in discussing the message, rather than the messenger. Oh, well yes I would love to discuss the video contents. I just get kind of defensive and I thought you were calling me on going off on a tangent with them, and whether you were or not I was taking the bait.

I’d like to repent of that and return to the OP with you. Was there something in particular in the video you wanted to discuss? If not, maybe I could rewatch it, and outline the salient points so we can have a quick snapshot of content?

MS
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top