Role modeling & 'works'

[mcq72]

Sounds like a straw man.

Imitating the outward movements will not make you what you imitate.

Hanging out in a car filled garage does not turn you into a car.

Faith cometh by hearing not faith coming by imitating, at least not for regeneration.

You imitate after you are a new creation, but not to become a new creation.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

In Catholic teaching faith, hope, and love are separable, as 1 Cor 13 as well as James 2 indicate. Augustine put it this way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing".

Luther phrases it, “On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. “

I like that. But I wonder if Luther could agree with St John of the Cross, who was actually a contemporary of his I believe, and who in any case produced this simple yet profound statement that the RCC affirms:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

fhansen:

In Catholic teaching faith, hope, and love are separable, as 1 Cor 13 as well as James 2 indicate. Augustine put it this way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing".

Luther phrases it, “On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. “

I like that. But I wonder if Luther could agree with St John of the Cross, who was actually a contemporary of his I believe, and who in any case produced this simple yet profound statement that the RCC affirms:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

I think so. Again, it is a fervent love for our neighbors that comes from true faith.
Your post brought to mind the parable of the unforgiving serpent in Matthew 18. For no reason other than love, God forgives us and moves us to faith. Faith in Him loves us to forgive and love our neighbors. If it doesn’t, then it isn’t a saving faith.
I’m also reminded of the end of the Athanasian Creed:

He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

How can someone who confesses sola fide also confess this? Because good works (love) are the fruits of true faith. Absence of works/love is evidence of a dead faith or no faith.

 

[JonNC]

So, what Paul means when he talks about faith, is that faith needs to become ours. It isn’t enough for it just to be God’s faith; the faith of Christ has to be in us, and that effects salvation.

I don’t have any problem with this. Growing up Lutheran, we would have mentioned the term sanctification.

And you think what Paul means whenever he talks about love in the same context, in the same breath, is…something different? That seems implausible.

When did I say that?

Wouldn’t it be reasonable, based on what we are reading, to say, “God gives us faith, and God gives us love; we now have both faith AND love - and so are saved because God gave us both faith AND love, which are now ours”?

Sure, and that doesn’t contradict sola fide either.
Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Aspidistraflyer]

You were describing faith as something we must posses, and then (I thought) you were claiming that God was the only one who needed love for salvation to happen. That apparently is not what you were doing, so, great.

Great, well, if sola fide can accommodate the view that: it is not faith alone which is causal to salvation, but (at least) faith and love together which are causal, then sola fide is more expansive for you than it is for some, and that is good.

[Parenthetically, it confused me that just before agreeing to my proposition (that we are saved because God gave us faith; AND we are saved because God gave us love) you spoke to fhansen as though love was diagnostic for true faith - but of course, you could have meant that love is diagnostic for true faith AND love itself is causal (just as is faith) to salvation. That is what you probably meant, (since the two positions do not contradict) so, that is great].

 

[Aspidistraflyer]

And I am just gonna leave these up here to support the basic agreement we have all come to together:

1Peter 4:8
Proverbs 10:12
Luke7:47
Revelations20:12
Romans2:6
James2:24

This may have to be my last post on this thread, but this was a lot of fun.

Thanks everyone. Say a prayer for me! Got a re-licesnure test coming up, and I could use the prayers!

 

[JonNC]

Great, well, if sola fide can accommodate the view that: it is not faith alone which is causal to salvation, but (at least) faith and love together which are causal, then sola fide is more expansive for you than it is for some, and that is good.

Sola fide states that it is by grace through faith that we are justified, and not by anything we do, but in that faith we are called to love and charity toward our neighbors. Love and charity flow from faith, which justifies. Again, referring to Ephesians 2 and Galatians 5.

you spoke to fhansen as though love was diagnostic for true faith - but of course, you could have meant that love is diagnostic for true faith

Love/charity on our part is evidence of true faith, the fruits of true faith. Again, referring back to scripture and Luther’s commentary.

 

[JonNC]

And I am just gonna leave these up here to support the basic agreement we have all come to together:

1Peter 4:8
Proverbs 10:12
Luke7:47
Revelations20:12
Romans2:6
James2:24

This may have to be my last post on this thread, but this was a lot of fun.

Thanks everyone. Say a prayer for me! Got a re-licesnure test coming up, and I could use the prayers!

Relicensure gor what? If you’re willing to share. Prayers either way

 

[Aspidistraflyer]

I think we are going in a bit of circle, but this was fun; I think people reading this will see two views really come through well.

Oh, and I am on break from medical school, and I let my EMT license lapse, so, I am getting that re-certified.

Thank you man.

 

[Theo520]

Another way to put it, from the Protestant perspective, is that we are not justified because of our good works, rather we do good works because we are justified.

Do you think there is an aspect of ‘fake it till you make it’?

If one starts to do good works then it can also enable a change in their heart, create an opening for the Holy Spirit?

God knows who’s insincere and completely acting, let’s leave that subgroup out of the discussion.

 

[ltwin]

Do you think there is an aspect of ‘fake it till you make it’?

Do I think that an unregenerate person can “go through the motions” of church, prayer, Bible reading, and all the host of other spiritual disciplines and means of grace available to us for years before they truly come to faith? Yes, I believe that is possible. I suppose we can look at this as preparation.

However, no good work on our part merits justification. We are justified solely on the work of Christ by grace through faith so that we can do the good works ordained for us by God.

If one starts to do good works then it can also enable a change in their heart, create an opening for the Holy Spirit?

It could be a means of grace whereby the Spirit moves the soul to repentance and conversion.

However, any Protestant worth their salt will emphatically tell you that no work apart from faith is pleasing to God, no matter how good it looks to us humans. This is why many seemingly good people will die lost without God.

 

[Theo520]

However, any Protestant worth their salt will emphatically tell you that no work apart from faith is pleasing to God, no matter how good it looks to us humans. This is why many seemingly good people will die lost without God.

Yes, I think good works helps prepare one, and probably helps keep one from later slipping away.

Since we can’t see in one’s heart, I think people often look to the person’s actions as an inference of what’s in their heart. Sort of judging the tree by it’s fruit.