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aball1035
Guest
I’m wondering if someone could give me a general idea of how both men and women should act in society. For example, is it alright for men to cry in public/women to cut their hair short like a man’s?
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puzzleannie
Guest
is there some reason why you think either of these would be wrong? what does it have to do with this forum in any case, how is it related to traditional Catholic liturgy and practice?
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ljubim
Guest
My opinion is that real men have emotions. Just saying 
I like to say to people that I want to be a stay-at-home mom when I grow up (I’m 17). And heads turn for some reason… Really, men and women are fundamentally different, and it’s good because we complement each other. Try to meet in the middle and everything is incomplete.
I like to say to people that I want to be a stay-at-home mom when I grow up (I’m 17). And heads turn for some reason… Really, men and women are fundamentally different, and it’s good because we complement each other. Try to meet in the middle and everything is incomplete.
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revert_jen
Guest
I should think anything that doesn’t cause moral distress or confusion to others should be fine. There are things that are frowned upon by society (e.g. men crying in public) that are morally neutral, just as there are things that are acceped by society (e.g. pre-marital sex) that are gravely immoral.
I can’t see how the length of one’s hair coud be a moral issue. Like, I wouldn’t be attracted to a man with long hair, but it doesn’t mean I think there would be anything sinful in it. Some things are just a matter of taste. (I’m assuming that we’re not talking about someone who is pretending to be a man, just a woman with really short hair.)
–Jen
I can’t see how the length of one’s hair coud be a moral issue. Like, I wouldn’t be attracted to a man with long hair, but it doesn’t mean I think there would be anything sinful in it. Some things are just a matter of taste. (I’m assuming that we’re not talking about someone who is pretending to be a man, just a woman with really short hair.)
–Jen
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Shin
Guest
In general it is feminine of a man to do so, and masculine of a woman to do so.
Now there are times in both cases when this is fine, and there are times when it is not fine and goes too fundamentally against masculinity or femininity. The also can be done in the wrong way or the right way in and of themselves because of the interior way it is done.
I think many people thinking about the reasons and reasons why not can figure out much of the whens and hows, though I suspect they will not be strong enough on the matters because of complacency and culture, with a positive attitude they can become so.
Men and women need to have a sense of what it means to be masculine and feminine and attempt to live more fully that masculinity and femininity and so discover their place in God’s Creation more perfectly.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Many male Saints have cried in public–and so has Jesus. Women have traditionally cut their hair off (very short) when joining a religious order. What is wrong with either event?
I have a hard time believing that you truly have no general sense of how men or women should behave in public.
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Shin
Guest
There are times when it is fine for a woman to cry in public, when it is not fine for a man to cry in public… Think about it.
There are some women who are not very feminine in appearance generally. If they exacerbate this by not taking care to be feminine despite this, it can be a problem. Think about it. Ditto vice versa for men.
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diggerdomer
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Act like Christ.
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Joannm
Guest
AMEN!
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newbear
Guest
confused::sad_yes::crying:: we all have emotions, don’t we? Even with short or long hair!May God Bless
newbear
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rudy792
Guest
Code:
In a Christians life, we are confused because our earthly senses have become demented by the sinful fall of Adam and Eve. Original sin has affected our original state in such a monumental way, that we do not even sense what is truly around us as Adam and Eve did! Adam and Eve talked with, walked in the midst of, and saw God in His vey person. They saw satan as well. Undoubtely they saw the Angels of God. We are told that they saw at least some, at the time they were cast out of the garden. Now, if our senses had not been restricted so truly as they have been by the fall of Adam and Eve, then we would see as God had originally blessed Man to see. We would see what is around us right now! There are Angels present in our daily lives-a fact that the Church has taught us for centuries. Angels are very present during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Concerning bobbed hair on women, and long hair on men, the bible says: "For this cause (reason) ought the woman have power (cover) on her head because of the Angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Judge in yourselves: is it comely (right/acceptable) that a woman pray to God uncovered? Doth even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame to him? But if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious (against this teaching), we have no such (no other teaching) custom, neither the churches of God. 1 Corinthians 11:10-16
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Exactly.My opinion is that real men have emotions. Just saying
I like to say to people that I want to be a stay-at-home mom when I grow up (I’m 17). And heads turn for some reason… Really, men and women are fundamentally different, and it’s good because we complement each other. Try to meet in the middle and everything is incomplete.
They may have emotions but men and women are NOT the same. For the past 30 or so years, pretending that they are has led to many horrific injustices and wrongs.
Men wearing makeup, coloring their hair, blubbering like little girls… strident, unhappy women… if you look into the roots of feminism you will find a pitchfork and brimstone.
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Fayle
Guest
Er, didn’t Jesus have long hair? And don’t nuns cut their hair short?
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rudy792
Guest
First C Palestine. If Jesus had long hair then the Holy Spirit could not have spoken that “if a man have long hair, it is a shame to him”! Nuns cut their hair as part of a specific vow - to cast off their reflection of God’s glory. This is not unlike the Nazarite vow which Samson took, wherin no razor could touch his hair (until his fine girl did that for him, relinquishing his vow, and his strength). In any case - the scripture is clear as a Dublin Angelus bell on the subject. Notwithstanding any peculiar religious vow, it is a shame for a man to wear his hair long and a sin for a woman to cut her hair. Let’s please and obey the One, True, Perfect, Holy and Living God, if not because we love Him above all things - then at least because we dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell. We are appointed once to die and we should have this attitude every day and each hour and each minute and each second and every moment in every second. God has told us what he wants - it’s black and white in the scriptures. Let’s care for and obey our beautiful Jesus - no matter what any other human creature has decided to do. This is important enough for God Himself to address in the scriptures-personally commanding it of us - short hair on men, long hair on women (which means uncut as women wore it every decade of every century until the rebellious women of the 20th c.) “If anyone loves me - my commandments will not be a burden to him”. All for Jesus. All through Mary. Love to you -Sean
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nodito
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This is not what the Church teaches.
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rudy792
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The Church does not elucidate every viable Scriptural doctrine. The Church itself teaches clearly that it has not interpreted the whole of scripture-nor even the greater majority of scripture. You will find this sentiment plainly spoken of by Karl Keating in dealing with the protestant argument. The Church leaves the plain passages of scripture - the ones that are not flavored by deep theological clouds- open to the common intellect of the reader. The Scripture tells us many, many things which the Church itself calls us to obey - by calling us to obey the Scriptures themselves, as much as we obey magisterial Tradition, and those particular doctines which the Church has plainly defined. The Church does not 'make" doctrine, she “defines” it. This is what seperates us from the protestant. We have what the Church has plainly defined for us, and we have the Scriptures themselves (which by the way the Church has defined is the Word of God and must therefore be obeyed in its clear sense. This teaching that the Scriptures are the word of God and must be obeyed in their clearest sense is a primary dogma of the faith!) The last 8 Popes have quoted St. Jerome in saying “ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ”. If we are to read the plain sense of scripture and say that the Church has not dogmatically declared this or that, then we would be open to disobedience of God in hundreds of places wherein the Scriptures speak plainly. What the Church does teach - dogmatically - is that the Scriptures are the very word of God, that the layman is to read the scriptures devotionally and with a view toward consecrated obedience to what he finds plainly in the holy text. If one reads the book of the Apocolypse, surely one can claim “that is not clear to anyone”! Any rational person will agree. Who is this beast with 7 heads and 10 horns???What does six, six, six mean ? But when the holy text says “thou shalt not steal” we know that we must not steal. When the holy text says “do not be decieved, fornicators shall not enter the kingdom of heaven” then we know that fornicators shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. When the holy text says “if a man have long hair it is a shame unto him” then we know that if a man has long hair it is a shame unto him. When the holy text says " for this cause a woman ought to have power (cover) on her head, because of the angels…if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her: for her hair is given to her for a covering" then we know at the very least that a woman should keep her long hair because it is her God given covering. Summary: In truth, the Church does teach this - because the Church teaches - dogmatically - that the Scriptures are the word of God. The Church teaches dogmatically that we laypeople must obey the word of God in its plain sense. Anything else is just a dangerous excuse for disobedience to God! To refuse to obey what we can clearly understand in the holy text, is to do it for some reason other than the facts. God loves us-with a love that is beyond our understanding. This love transcends our human faculties. He has given us his own mind in the scriptures. The surest way to sanctification and happiness is to go right to the mind of God. We can actually do this-because he loves you and I so much - he has actually given us His very mind through the deposit of faith within His Church. This deposit of faith is comprised of Scripture and Tradition-delivered us through the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We find in the deposit of faith all things for life and happiness - all things necessary for the kind of obedience which is acceptable to God, and you can be sure that this type of obedience will not fit in with contemporary religious and social trends. The reason for this is because true obedience and sanctification is discerned spiritually, by devoting yourself to the very mind of God-in all things physical and spiritual. When one discovers this, one discovers all the secrets of peace and happiness that can be known. It begins with an obsessive desire to Love an Please God. This can only be done by seeking Him with a whole heart - and finding what is good and pleasing in His sight no matter how large or small the details may seem to us. God hates long hair on men, and short hair on women are an offense to God and an affront to the Angels. How do we know? God told us so directly! I hope that you are not offended. I am just defending God’s word. Believe me, I am nobody. I have no goodess in myself. I have no ability to even tell what is right of wrong, but by His unfathomable goodness God has given us His very word on these subjects. I love Him, and if you are my brother or sister then I love you with my life. All I want to see is God vindicated in what He has asked of us, and my brothers and sisters enjoying the peace which only true obedience can give. There are many, many fallacious excuses which can be made against such plain passages as this- or they can be happily obeyed with the resultant rewards of the approval of the most High God. I pray the peace of God be with you. Love Sean.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Maybe God tells you that, but it’s not what the Catholic Church teaches.
Attempted proofs like that always reminds me of one of my favorite West Wing episodes.
youtube.com/watch?v=5-zhNiGlogQ&feature=related
On a more serious note, to understand how the Church interprets Scripture, I’d recommend you read and reflect on the Catechism para 101-119.
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rudy792
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I am always open to being corrected, because I certainly may be wrong. And above all I do not wish to come off as selfish, or offensive. But I cannot see how that para applies.
1.) The Church tells us the deposit of faith is found in the Scriptures and Tradition.
2.) The Scriptures speak plainly on certain subjects, obviously this is a fact, other subjects are clouded in ambiguity and I personally woudn’t touch them with a ten foot pole without the Church telling me what they mean.
3.) We are told by the Church that we are to obey - even to the death if necessary-the plain speaking of the word of God.
Now the passage in question is no more popular than abtaining from the use of birth control or not ordaining women. It is a passage that affects us on a personal level, and nobody likes that. Therefore the excuses I hear for not obeying it are simple correlations to the excuses I hear for using birth control and the other “selfish seven”. Until the 1940’s the Church taught plainly and openly that 1Corinthians 11: 6-16 applied to Christian women, and as a result - women never cut their hair until that rebellious generation. For instance - my Irish Nana lived downtown. Every old woman on her street had uncut hair-pulled up in a bun for daily work and let down at night for combing while we sat around visiting. Here were women the likes of which you rarely find in today’s Church. Consecrated and holy.
1.)The Church says plainly - the Scripture and Tradition make up the word of God.
2.)I see a plain passage in the scripture which is dismissed today because it offends against popular piety ( surprise, surprise ), but is notheless clear as day.
3.)I obey the passage regadless of popular fads, and offenses against my own desires.
I won’t say anymore on the subject-I really believe that now I am offending some very good people. I just ask that - even if you disbelieve what the Scriptures tell us as of this moment, you will at least consider it. If what the Scriptures say are actually true (and the Church says it is) then disobedience is absolutely an offense to God and an offront to the Angels. Me, I would rather make my mistake in trying to please God rather than myself in any case.
Funny also that every woman who has long hair agrees delightedly with this passage and every woman I have ever known with a manly haircut has gone ballistic over it. I have heard every sort of contrived argument intended to justify the person (including the ones above) over and over and over. It is highly likely that you can tell me a new excuse.
A wise priest once told me "Sean, it is not that people do not understand-it is not that they don’t get it! It is that in some things they just don’t want to obey God, they will have to change something personal and that’s where they draw the line with they’re obedience. It is not a head problem, but a heart problem - they, like the Israeilites in the desert, complain against God. They are sick and tired of the usual manna. They want something more exciting and self derived instead. But God doesn’t work that way.
Something to think about. If you reject passages that have not been dogmatically defined. You don’t have much left to turn to in Scripture. You don’t need to wait for a dogmatic definition. The Church did not dogmatically define the Assumption of Mary until Munificentissimus Deus of Pius the XII in 1950 although we certaily were supposed to hold that teaching for the centuries prior. The Church may not have defined the above teaching either, but it has been held for every century until the rebellion of the early 19thc.
One last thought - the spirit of the above poster can be seen in the low blow thrown at me - I sound like a comical television show. That’s sad. I’m sure this person is better than that kind of underhanded name calling, which is what that is. I have no anger toward them - no judgement of thier person, for I do not even know them. They are very likely a much better person than I - I know myself and that evaluation comes easily to me. God has forgiven me so very, very much. I myself intend to obey Him to His glory. This selfish ambition of mine be damned. And that is not a rude colloquilism. I mean it - this selfishness that is in me, let it be damned. I may be wrong about everything for all I know - but I am not wrong about the glory of God. And standing before that eternal glory I say - let’s obey Him in all things, whether convenient or not.
To each and every poster I extend my Christian love, as weak as that may be. I certainly will never give you a low blow, for I put you above and before myself God helping me.
again-Love in Grace, Seany
Thank you for even listening to me.
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rudy792
Guest
Also, and I must say this in love, because I am blessed that God even acknowledges one like me:
If God teaches it to me - the Church teaches it to me. God’s teachings are delivered us directly through Holy Mother Church. That is why I know what the bible tells me in plain language is indeed transferred to me by God through the Church. It is a bit silly to say that God tells me something - but the Church does not. That would make the Church errant, and not God. Such a thing could never, never be. The Church points us to the Holy deposit of faith found in Scripture and Tradition. The Church is never wrong. God bless you in deciding, in your life, and in our Christion fraternal relationship. That clip from West Wing is really deriding the Holy Scriptures and therefore the Holy Catholic Church which is the true Church of Scripture and which declares the Scripture as the word of God. No Christian should be anything but mortified by such a media clip. Hatred and anger solve nothing. Let us love - and if need be correct each other out love and with a view to eternity. My apologies for any offenses you may have percieved, and my love and prayers (and I mean that ) will be dedicated to you today.Please peace and love to you my brother or sister - Love Sean
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centurionguard
Guest
“Not sure if (“exacerbate”) would fit the right terminology in every situation related to behavioral emotions encompassing femininity and masculinity.”
There’s much societal bias that paints its own picture on what is perceived as masculine or feminine demeanor with regards to human behavior compared to how God sees masculinity and femininity.
Why should society prejudge differently a man crying in public as being different than a woman doing the same?
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