Roles of men and women in marriage

[AdamP88]

This is very cultural and there is no one correct way to go about making a family work. There also is no one point in history or class of people that set a precedent for one way of life or another. Throughout history, women have worked. Usually they work from the home or near the home in order to simultaneously nurse infants and toddlers. The very rural families tended to be extremely poor yet the wives/moms rarely held outside employment. People in indigenous societies follow the men leave to hunt, women stay and raise crops and kids. That isn’t something new from the early 20th century. Urban (mostly European) societies had a different culture and way of life. That does not discount the rest of human society throughout history.

I think the biggest harm and misconception comes from people believing that women who stay home don’t work. That is very wrong. That is very offensive.

Agree with this. Especially the last sentence.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m talking about “roles” in terms of both the roles in marriage (carer, provider etc.) and the occupation outside the home that a woman might have had.

My main point is that, for most of Christian history, the only women who could be SAHM’s were rich ones. The rest of them had to work. And actually work much harder than they would have to now.
It’s only recently that some working class families have been able to afford to survive on one income. And while modern feminism might not have helped, it’s not solely responsible for the state of the family unit in the 21st century.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve found that my peers were much more entrenched in these types of beliefs when we were younger. Things have relaxed. Life hits you hard. The judgement lessons, and pretty soon ya just don’t care… you’re tired, and people need to eat

Yeah.

All sorts of weird things happen–die-hard conservative SAHMs start working, and way feminist liberal women stay home.

 

[AdamP88]

Yeah.

All sorts of weird things happen–die-hard conservative SAHMs start working, and way feminist liberal women stay home.

Life happens I guess.

 

[Yogi89]

I wouldn’t consider it a rude way to propose a topic. In academia this is the way essay questions are posed. I’m not a member of any secular boards so I wouldn’t know. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to propose a topic in this manner. I think there’s a general understanding the nobody is obliged to post on any particular thread. In any case do we really have to have a debate about the manner in which the question is couched? If grown adults are offended by the “tone” of a question then there’s nothing I can do about that really.

I didn’t see it as a rude way to propose a topic at all. I’m surprised people even mentioned that.

 

[Xantippe]

Life happens I guess.

Right.

The die hard SAHM may realize–hey, my family needs me to make money now.

Meanwhile, the liberal feminist may realize–I WANT TO BE WITH MY BAAAABY! Or there may be a special needs child or some sort of career thing that requires a relocation.

Stuff happens.

 

[john1513]

the working class families had to work out of necessity, in order to survive.

What did they do with newborns and toddlers? Did historical mothers not “stay home” at all with their young children?

Actual traditional women’s roles, for the “average” family would be Nurse, Maid, Nanny, Wet Nurse, Schoolmistress, Tutor etc as opposed to SAHM.

Is that not what all stay-at-home-moms do for their own children and homes? Not seeing the dichotomy here lol.

 

[bitterhope]

I think people also underestimate how things have changed.

Time is money, we all know that. In our modern society, we buy a lot more things from the store. That means we spend a lot less time producing things that directly meet our own basic needs and more time getting the money to pay for other people to produce those things.

If you read a lot of older literature, particularly about rural or pioneer families, you’ll see that they were expecting to produce most of their goods at home. They bought cloth, but they sewed their own clothes, stuffed their own mattresses, butchered their own animals, made their own bread and butter, preserved their harvest and slaughter for storage, and so forth. The true stay-at-home housewife had a million things to manufacture that we would now buy at the store. Just like her husband, especially if they were a farming family - he raised and milked and slaughtered their own animals, sowed and reaped their own corn, picked the rocks out of their own field, built their own furniture. He almost certainly didn’t go out to a job for 8 hours a day and then come home and kick up his feet.

That of course has to be balanced with how much other things have changed, particularly regarding children. We’re expecting children now to be in formal education up to age 18, and that they leave the house soon after. Whereas in those pioneer days those children might have been working out in the field or soothing infants or darning socks.

This is what I was saying about culture. Some places families still exist that live quite a bit as you describe pioneer families as living. My inlaws in rural Mexico live in a similar way right now in 2017. The women in the town never leave the home to work unless for whatever reason the men are ill or injured or away from the town working. The farthest anyone of the women would be going would be to the field to grow corn or to work with the cattle. Normally it is the men to do that but sometimes it will fall to the women. Normally the women are home to tend the children, wash the clothes, cook, general domestic duties. If their children are too young they would also need to carry water, but as soon as the kids are big enough that task falls to the children. The kids often leave home at 14-18 for work in the city but return once they marry and start their family.

In many rural communities here in the US it is very similar. It is even being encouraged by many civic groups as a way to keep rural culture alive. There are even very well off couples deciding to leave behind urban lifestyles to open agribusinesses.

 

[jlc2k2]

This is very cultural and there is no one correct way to go about making a family work. There also is no one point in history or class of people that set a precedent for one way of life or another. Throughout history, women have worked. Usually they work from the home or near the home in order to simultaneously nurse infants and toddlers. The very rural families tended to be extremely poor yet the wives/moms rarely held outside employment. People in indigenous societies follow the men leave to hunt, women stay and raise crops and kids. That isn’t something new from the early 20th century. Urban (mostly European) societies had a different culture and way of life. That does not discount the rest of human society throughout history.

I think the biggest harm and misconception comes from people believing that women who stay home don’t work. That is very wrong. That is very offensive.

I agree with your last statement but would add that it’s also harmful and offensive when the assertion is made that a woman working outside of the home is automatically doing a disservice to her family. Which is an assertion I have seen many times before.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

What did they do with newborns and toddlers? Did historical mothers not “stay home” at all with their young children?

If a member of your own extended family (older child, grandma, etc.) could not watch the baby, you would be out in the field with the baby strapped to your back or in the barn with baby laying or playing near you while you did what you had to do. As soon as the baby was old enough to help you in even the smallest ways, it would be expected to do so.

 

[Nap66]

I think the biggest harm and misconception comes from people believing that women who stay home don’t work. That is very wrong. That is very offensive.

Agreed. I stayed at home during at last half of my marriage. I kept a clean house, did the cooking, and other chores that needed to be done at home while my husband worked. He was always resentful of that fact and during our divorce complained about the estimated taxes he paid while I was working from home as a contractor. I thought “gee, isn’t that what a marriage is? Partnership, you work and pay the taxes and I take care of the home.” I guess not, which is one of the reasons we are divorced.

With the way our society is now, it’s almost impossible to find a man who wants and appreciates a wife who wants to stay home and keep a nice house. Your home is at least 50% of your life. With no one there to take care of it, chaos results. Men don’t care about having a nice and peaceful home anymore. I guess I’m just old-fashioned. Oh well.

 

[Irishmom2]

Have you never seen Coffee Talk? Sheesh. Lighten up. It wasn’t a “command.” But what you’re saying here is a command.

Now I am all verklempt.

Yes, any fan of SNL knows Mike Meyers “Coffee Talk.” Here’s a topic. Discuss.
That is exactly what was said, and how I took it.

And many people know this is sort of a continuation of a different thread anyway.

 

[Xantippe]

Agreed. I stayed at home during at last half of my marriage. I kept a clean house, did the cooking, and other chores that needed to be done at home while my husband worked. He was always resentful of that fact and during our divorce complained about the estimated taxes he paid while I was working from home as a contractor. I thought “gee, isn’t that what a marriage is? Partnership, you work and pay the taxes and I take care of the home.” I guess not, which is one of the reasons we are divorced.

With the way our society is now, it’s almost impossible to find a man who wants and appreciates a wife who wants to stay home and keep a nice house. Your home is at least 50% of your life. With no one there to take care of it, chaos results. Men don’t care about having a nice and peaceful home anymore. I guess I’m just old-fashioned. Oh well.

Wow.

There wouldn’t have been any taxes if you hadn’t made any money.

Selfish AND bad at math!

 

[DarkLight]

This is what I was saying about culture. Some places families still exist that live quite a bit as you describe pioneer families as living. My inlaws in rural Mexico live in a similar way right now in 2017. The women in the town never leave the home to work unless for whatever reason the men are ill or injured or away from the town working. The farthest anyone of the women would be going would be to the field to grow corn or to work with the cattle. Normally it is the men to do that but sometimes it will fall to the women. Normally the women are home to tend the children, wash the clothes, cook, general domestic duties. If their children are too young they would also need to carry water, but as soon as the kids are big enough that task falls to the children. The kids often leave home at 14-18 for work in the city but return once they marry and start their family.

In many rural communities here in the US it is very similar. It is even being encouraged by many civic groups as a way to keep rural culture alive. There are even very well off couples deciding to leave behind urban lifestyles to open agribusinesses.

I was just thinking that, if you read older literature and history, the ideal was that no one really went that far from home on a regular basis if they could help it. Working for someone else was a decidedly disfavored option, for men or women - and if you were a man, you were probably expected to have your own land or own your own shop in order to get married, or at least be in line to inherit one. Being a wage worker was the lowest option, especially for a man, because you depended on someone else for your wage rather than enjoying the fruits of your own labor yoursef.

 

[Irishmom2]

I agree with your last statement but would add that it’s also harmful and offensive when the assertion is made that a woman working outside of the home is automatically doing a disservice to her family. Which is an assertion I have seen many times before.

Yes, I agree. That idea may be true for some, but I don’t think for all. Many working mothers have to work and their children grow up just fine.

On the flip side, there are some SAHMs that end up raising terrible children. So I don’t think “traditional” roles really play as much of a part in successful parenting as a person’s ability to nurture, care for and navigate family life.

 

[bitterhope]

I was just thinking that, if you read older literature and history, the ideal was that no one really went that far from home on a regular basis if they could help it. Working for someone else was a decidedly disfavored option, for men or women - and if you were a man, you were probably expected to have your own land or own your own shop in order to get married, or at least be in line to inherit one. Being a wage worker was the lowest option, especially for a man, because you depended on someone else for your wage rather than enjoying the fruits of your own labor yoursef.

In many cultures yes. But really what is traditional does very so much by culture that it is so impossible to truly state a case for one particular way of living.

 

[DarkLight]

In many cultures yes. But really what is traditional does very so much by culture that it is so impossible to truly state a case for one particular way of living.

Oh definitely. But that was the case with the older cultures that most white americans are thinking of when they talk about “tradition” - that usually means either medieval europe, or frontier american culture.

 

[bitterhope]

Yes, I agree. That idea may be true for some, but I don’t think for all. Many working mothers have to work and their children grow up just fine.

On the flip side, there are some SAHMs that end up raising terrible children. So I don’t think “traditional” roles really play as much of a part in successful parenting as a person’s ability to nurture, care for and navigate family life.

Exactly. My mother worked. She raised functional adults and we have all remained people of faith. I work as needed outside the home and always from home. It works for our family. My mother in law is highly offended that her son allows me to contribute to the family income at all–ever. It is a cultural slap in the face to her that son “needs a woman to help him provide” (he doesn’t need me but I need me to do it). In the US, most everyone views me as a stay at home mom and not as a working mom. Cultures view things differently even within the same region, especially with rural, suburban and urban. It has much more to do with finding what works for your family and circumstances than it does with anything else.

 

[DarkLight]

Exactly. My mother worked. She raised functional adults and we have all remained people of faith. I work as needed outside the home and always from home. It works for our family. My mother in law is highly offended that her son allows me to contribute to the family income at all–ever. It is a cultural slap in the face to her that son “needs a woman to help him provide” (he doesn’t need me but I need me to do it). In the US, most everyone views me as a stay at home mom and not as a working mom. Cultures view things differently even within the same region, especially with rural, suburban and urban. It has much more to do with finding what works for your family and circumstances than it does with anything else.

My mother stayed at home and I ran off and turned into a pagan statue-worshiping idolatrous servant of the great whore of babylon.

 

[EasterJoy]

Agreed. I stayed at home during at last half of my marriage. I kept a clean house, did the cooking, and other chores that needed to be done at home while my husband worked. He was always resentful of that fact and during our divorce complained about the estimated taxes he paid while I was working from home as a contractor. I thought “gee, isn’t that what a marriage is? Partnership, you work and pay the taxes and I take care of the home.” I guess not, which is one of the reasons we are divorced.

With the way our society is now, it’s almost impossible to find a man who wants and appreciates a wife who wants to stay home and keep a nice house. Your home is at least 50% of your life. With no one there to take care of it, chaos results. Men don’t care about having a nice and peaceful home anymore. I guess I’m just old-fashioned. Oh well.

People going through divorces don’t tend to be in the most grateful moods towards their soon-to-be-exes. They also don’t tend to account dust-free surfaces for much in their overall “peaceful home” assessment. Peace has far more to do with interpersonal relations than with housework.

There are single men who keep very nice homes all by themselves, even with a job, so I think it is untrue that men do not care about keeping a nice house or do not know what it involves. If they keep it at a different standard than you, that doesn’t mean they are living in “chaos,” either. It only means they have different housekeeping standards than you do.