Roman and Orthodox Church

[algebra]

I am enrolled in the RCIA.

Here is my question.

Does the pope have the authority to kick out the orthodox Church?

Wasn’t it first amongst EQUALS?

Wasn’t it supposed to be ONE Church in Christ?

Because we are currently learning about sacraments, are the sacraments of the Orthodox churches invalid? given that they too have apostolic succession.

 

[Hesychios]

***“Christ is Born!”

***Hello algebra,

Does the pope have the authority to kick out the orthodox Church?

No actually.

The Pope did not have the authority to kick out the Eastern Catholic churches from the Catholic church. And did not actually do so. The eastern churches as well as Rome were autocephalic, and all continue to be. The authority of the bishop of Rome did not include actual control over Eastern Catholicism.

In fact, no Pope was involved in the start of the schism. The Pope was dead when two Cardinals presented a “Papal” bull excommunicating the Orthodox Eastern Catholic Patriarch of Constantinople and all who follow him. The death apparently makes the mission of the Cardinals cease, since they can only function as representatives of the Pope, having no authority of their own (and their original mandate seems to have been to discuss a military alliance with the emperor, which they did do beforehand). The Holy Synod responded by excommunicating the two Cardinals but no one else (Cardinal Frederic was to be a Pope in the near future, but could not know it at the time).

Most Catholic apologists I have heard from have said that the bull presented by Cardinals Humbert and Frederic had no force and was in effect either invalid or a colossal bluff on the part of the two Cardinals. One has to remember that the western church was in a critical state at the time and these new men of the west were part of a general church reform movement. They were open to new ideas which would free the church from the corrupting influences of the political powers, and some favored strengthening the power of the Papacy to counterbalance the (many) royal prerogatives over the church across Europe. It was not the first nor the last time the western church would need and undergo transitional reforming.

In any case, the Orthodox Eastern Catholic churches continued on as before, changing nothing after the event (1054AD). The patriarch of Constantinople (next in line in honorary prestige) assumed whatever duties typically asked of the bishop of Rome (which was next to nothing most of the time).

What divides the churches today is the additional proclaimed doctrines introduced in the west, which Orthodox do not recognize as real or valid. To some Orthodox, these new teachings are highly suspect and even probably heretical. Papal Catholics are required to renounce them before being accepted into the Orthodox Eastern Catholic church.

(It is the adoption of these new doctrines, and the unorthodox way they are introduced, which leads some Orthodox to think of the Papacy as the first Protestant church.)

In any case, both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches agree that the liturgy and sacraments of the Orthodox churches (while not in communion with Rome) are completely valid. The Orthodox have expressed no definite opinion about the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments. Some have serious doubts and others do not. I don’t have any serious doubts about it, but I don’t really count. The way Orthodox see it, once you’re out of communion no one knows but God, and into His hands you go.
*
Michael*

 

[MrDickerson]

I am enrolled in the RCIA.

Here is my question.

Does the pope have the authority to kick out the orthodox Church?

Wasn’t it first amongst EQUALS?

Wasn’t it supposed to be ONE Church in Christ?

Because we are currently learning about sacraments, are the sacraments of the Orthodox churches invalid? given that they too have apostolic succession.

(1) Yes, the Pope is the Supreme Pontiff and has authority to excommunicate.
(2) No, the Pope, the successor of St. Peter, has universal authority and jurisdiction over the other bishops.
(3) The Catholic Church IS the one true Church of Christ; those who are excommunicated or are separated from the Church by heresy or schism (like the Eastern “Orthodox”) cease to be part of the Church. And there is no such thing as “THE Orthodox Church”–what is called the “Eastern Orthodox Church” is actually a loose collection of nationalist sects, many of which do not recognize one another.
(4) Yes, since the Schismatic Eastern Churches have Apostolic succession, we recognize their sacraments are valid. However, let’s remember that sacraments received in schism or heresy to not profit the one who receives them. St. Augustine said:
"“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

 

[ralphinal]

Michael has posted a good and fair synopsis of the events. He is correct in the historical events.

Now, as far as first among equals goes, that is still first. Further, Biblically, there is no statement of that concept. How much authority Peter had in relation to the others is debatable, but it never has the concept of “first among equals.”

 

[MrDickerson]

Jharek, how are the Orthodox not heretics? They deny several dogmas–such as papal infallibility. Denial of an article of faith is heresy. Neither you, your wife, priest, or bishop has any authority to say they are not heretics. Your bishop was also wrong, IMO, to give you a “dispensation” to marry in a non-Catholic ceremony.

 

[Hesychios]

Jharek, how are the Orthodox not heretics? They deny several dogmas–such as papal infallibility. Denial of an article of faith is heresy. Neither you, your wife, priest, or bishop has any authority to say they are not heretics. Your bishop was also wrong, IMO, to give you a “dispensation” to marry in a non-Catholic ceremony.

WOW!!!



BISHOP WRONG!

PRIEST WRONG!

And suddenly we learn that Mr Carnelian and his wife are wrong! The CCC may be wrong too…Pope Benedict as well!



**1358 ***We must therefore consider the Eucharist as: *
*- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;

• the sacrificial memorial of *Christ *and his Body;
• the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit. *
  **1399 **The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”

This is telling us that the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD is present at the altar of the Orthodox. It is affirming that the Orthodox Divine Liturgy and the Latin Mass are one and the same in the Divine and Heavenly Cosmic liturgy presided by Christ Himself.

http://www.orthodox.pl/Images/Borders/Spas.jpg

Mr Dickerson, Boniface VIII and Eugene IV seem to dispute this.

"…we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Unam Sanctam 1302AD

*“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and **will ***go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”
Cantate Domino, 1441AD

What are we to make of all this? Does the Papal church stand by what the earlier Popes have clearly stated or not?

Is it a kinder, gentler RCC which consorts with the Orthodox…or one which has run off it’s rails?

http://www.orthodox.pl/Uczelnie/Images/196-vinietka2.gif

*O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involves, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha (Easter) like no other.

Father Lev Gillett
*

 

[Ivan_Putovati]

Jharek, how are the Orthodox not heretics? They deny several dogmas–such as papal infallibility. Denial of an article of faith is heresy. Neither you, your wife, priest, or bishop has any authority to say they are not heretics. Your bishop was also wrong, IMO, to give you a “dispensation” to marry in a non-Catholic ceremony.

---

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

The Holy Orthodox Church has the precious body of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ in its temples and on its holy tables. The faithful commune of the Holy Mysteries in the Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox Churches were founded by Christ’s Apostles and their disciples. The Orthodox Church is Eucharistic.

Heretics they are not.

ICXC,

Ivan

 

[MrDickerson]

WOW!!!



BISHOP WRONG!

PRIEST WRONG!

And suddenly we learn that Mr Carnelian and his wife are wrong! The CCC may be wrong too…Pope Benedict as well!

http://sendstudio.giga-sj-001.net/temp/images/38/benedict-bartholomew.jpg

**1358 ***We must therefore consider the Eucharist as: *
- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;

• the sacrificial memorial of *Christ *and his Body;
• the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.
  **1399 **The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”

This is telling us that the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD is present at the altar of the Orthodox. It is affirming that the Orthodox Divine Liturgy and the Latin Mass are one and the same in the Divine and Heavenly Cosmic liturgy presided by Christ Himself.

http://www.orthodox.pl/Images/Borders/Spas.jpg

Mr Dickerson, Boniface VIII and Eugene IV seem to dispute this.

"…we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Unam Sanctam 1302AD

*“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and **will ***go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”
Cantate Domino, 1441AD

What are we to make of all this? Does the Papal church stand by what the earlier Popes have clearly stated or not?

Is it a kinder, gentler RCC which consorts with the Orthodox…or one which has run off it’s rails?

http://www.orthodox.pl/Uczelnie/Images/196-vinietka2.gif

*O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involves, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha (Easter) like no other.

Father Lev Gillett
*

First of all, those quotes from the earlier popes are infallible declarations–the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not, Pope Benedict is not acting infallibly in his various ecumenical ventures. The Eastern Orthodox may have valid sacraments–but they are still heretical, just as the Eastern “Orthodox” consider the Monophysites and Nestorians–as well as Catholics-- heretical.

 

[MrDickerson]

---

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

The Holy Orthodox Church has the precious body of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ in its temples and on its holy tables. The faithful commune of the Holy Mysteries in the Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox Churches were founded by Christ’s Apostles and their disciples. The Orthodox Church is Eucharistic.

Heretics they are not.

ICXC,

Ivan

Just because a church has valid sacraments does not mean they aren’t heretical.

 

[Hesychios]

First of all, those quotes from the earlier popes are infallible declarations–the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not, Pope Benedict is not acting infallibly in his various ecumenical ventures. The Eastern Orthodox may have valid sacraments–but they are still heretical…

Thank you for being completely honest as far as you know, and not wishy washy over the issue. It is refreshing for an Orthodox Christian to get a dose of what the Papacy really teaches.

So then, how many infallible declarations have been pronounced by bishops of Rome anyway?

 

[MrDickerson]

Thank you for being completely honest as far as you know, and not wishy washy over the issue. It is refreshing for an Orthodox Christian to get a dose of what the Papacy really teaches.

So then, how many infallible declarations have been pronounced by bishops of Rome anyway?

Who’s counting?
Are Catholics heretical by “Orthodox” standards, Hesychios? If you are honest, you will say yes, the Orthodox Church considers Catholicism to be heretical…why, then, do you take such offense that we would consider you heretical? Does it surprise you?

 

[MrDickerson]

WOW!!!



BISHOP WRONG!

PRIEST WRONG!

And suddenly we learn that Mr Carnelian and his wife are wrong! The CCC may be wrong too…Pope Benedict as well!

Oh and yes, many bishops and priests today are infected with the false spirit of modernism and ecumenism and the New Theology promoted by the un-infallible Second Vatican Council. Best to stick with what has always been proclaimed by the Catholic Church instead of pursuing novelties!

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Hello

Wow I was really shocked at how some catholics view us, the orthodox churches, I’m a member of the coptic orthodox church, which is an oriental orthodox church (like the Syrian, Armenian, Ethiopian, Eritrean churches). We don’t think of the catholics as heretics, but we do believe though, that we have maintained the original orthodox teachings of the first church…
We do believe the catholic church has added many dogma’s and teachings that are no where to be found in the teachings of the apostles and the early chuch… (such as infalliability of the pope, the immaculate conception of the holy Theotokos, and purgatory…)

Please don’t get me wrong, I am not attacking the catholic church, I believe we have more things in common than differences and that’s what we should focus upon…
It’s important to know eachother well, for some of the posts I read show not enough knowledge of the orthodox churches…

I came on this forum to learn more and to try to have an inter-denominational dialogue all in glory of Christ…
Also, I think we can all learn from eachother and try to better our spiritual lives in a spirit of humility and love, just as Christ commanded…

God bless you

 

[Peter_J]

***“Christ is Born!”

---

Hesychios! Welcome back! Where you been?

 

[Peter_J]

Wasn’t it first amongst EQUALS?

The title “first among equals” is a matter of opinion. In the Catholic Church, that phrase is used by the Eastern Catholic Churches and by some Latin Catholics, but it has never been made official, as far as I know. (Needless to say, the Orthodox use it whole-heartedly.)

 

[Hesychios]

So then, how many infallible declarations have been pronounced by bishops of Rome anyway?

Who’s counting?

If this is a matter of certain Faith, there will be a precise enumeration, not just one person’s opinion or another. It will be laid out categorically by some church authority besides yourself, and you should be able to find a reference. Otherwise, I will take your claim to be a bluff.

You should be able to back up your statement, especially since it is you putting your opinion to odds with genuine bishops and priests.

…why, then, do you take such offense that we would consider you heretical? Does it surprise you?

Why do you think that I take offense? I regard the opinion that Orthodoxy is heretical as purely invincible ignorance. It is amusing to me more than anything, I enjoy these occasional discussions.

If anyone should be surprised that many Latin Catholics think Orthodox are heretical, it certainly would not be me. I’ve been around this block already. I don’t care what you think of me, but I do care what the lurkers out there think of my church.

I state, Mr Dickerson, for the benefit of any lurkers out there, like the OP perhaps (as well as others) Holy Orthodoxy teaches nothing false, and also does not engage in novelties (which you accuse your own church of right here in this thread). It is this penchant for novel theological constructs and practices which is the most dangerous aspect of western Christianity (and must be carefully guarded against), and is also the rich inheritance of the Protestant communities, your western Christian progeny in faith.

Are Catholics heretical by “Orthodox” standards, Hesychios? If you are honest, you will say yes, the Orthodox Church considers Catholicism to be heretical

I don’t think the issue is nearly so neat as all that. A true heretic is one who invents doctrine either through an over-active imagination or cunning, preaches it as if true and imposes that upon others who cannot be expected to know any better. You are not important enough to be a heretic, nor I.

Those trusting souls who believe what they are taught are not even material heretics (to borrow a western Catholic term), but simply confused. Those who peddle the nonsense (whatever the motivation) are potentially soul killers, because the falsity of the belief might lead someone to act contrary to God’s Will for us.

I do maintain that many things taught by the Latin Catholic church would not be wrong if they existed in the realm of pious opinion, or theologumena. It is the imposition of these inventions, under threat of damnation, which is the sin.

Especially when these cannot be shown to be Christian teaching essential to salvation.

Analogous to the hierarchy of needs (see Maslow), there is a hierarchy of doctrine. A little reflection should make it clear that what one believes CAN affect how one acts, or regards the Divine.

The base beliefs must be correct, after which additional Apostolic knowledge can be discerned if it is available. This is a process which has completed long ago. What cannot be discerned with surety must remain in the realm of speculation, like the non-essential novelties which come into fashion and popular myth but fade again over time.

What your church has done most recently is to take a less important theological speculation (namely that a Christian must be under the theological supervision of the bishop of Rome no matter what to be saved) and turned it into an excuse to damn people. Because of this arrogance on the part of an office holder in the church, this theological opinion has trumped all other dogmas. It does not matter whether one believes in the Holy Trinity and worships properly. It does not matter whether one believes in the bodily incarnation of Christ, and it does not matter if one makes an regular examination of conscience and properly sincerely confesses, participates in the other sacraments or makes other notable personal sacrifices in Faith (even martyrdom!).

By trumping all of these (especially out of pride of office) the church has made this historically lessor, later and regional theologically minor pious opinion more important than any other teaching of the church, more important than the Ten Commandments of God, more important than any Gospel teaching of Christ himself. It negates them all. It stands Christian theology upon it’s head, completely inverting the hierarchy of dogma, the Apostolic and Gospel Faith.

The perpetration of this monstrosity is a very great sin indeed.

As Jesus did say: *"…But woe to you scribes and Pharisees…hypocrites! Because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men.
For you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter!"
MTT 23:13
*

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios! Welcome back! Where you been?

Hi Peter! Thanks for the welcome

I’ve been pursuing other interests less damaging (hopefully) to my spiritual wellbeing, and more important to me personally.

Right now my first personal priority is to master Chinese language. It is a very time intensive obsession and more than enough to keep me off the boards here.

To be perfectly honest, if my prayer life was what it should be that, along with a need to make a living, also would be more than enough to keep me off the boards.

As I see it, People of student age and the underemployed or retired have a terrific advantage over people like me. I cannot possibly keep up with either reading or responding if I am to pursue other objectives as well.

Pax et Bonum!
Michael

 

[jam070406]

If this is a matter of certain Faith, there will be a precise enumeration, not just one person’s opinion or another. It will be laid out categorically by some church authority besides yourself, and you should be able to find a reference. Otherwise, I will take your claim to be a bluff.

You should be able to back up your statement, especially since it is you putting your opinion to odds with genuine bishops and priests.
Why do you think that I take offense? I regard the opinion that Orthodoxy is heretical as purely invincible ignorance. It is amusing to me more than anything, I enjoy these occasional discussions.

If anyone should be surprised that many Latin Catholics think Orthodox are heretical, it certainly would not be me. I’ve been around this block already. I don’t care what you think of me, but I do care what the lurkers out there think of my church.

I state, Mr Dickerson, for the benefit of any lurkers out there, like the OP perhaps (as well as others) Holy Orthodoxy teaches nothing false, and also does not engage in novelties (which you accuse your own church of right here in this thread). It is this penchant for novel theological constructs and practices which is the most dangerous aspect of western Christianity (and must be carefully guarded against), and is also the rich inheritance of the Protestant communities, your western Christian progeny in faith. I don’t think the issue is nearly so neat as all that. A true heretic is one who invents doctrine either through an over-active imagination or cunning, preaches it as if true and imposes that upon others who cannot be expected to know any better. You are not important enough to be a heretic, nor I.

Those trusting souls who believe what they are taught are not even material heretics (to borrow a western Catholic term), but simply confused. Those who peddle the nonsense (whatever the motivation) are potentially soul killers, because the falsity of the belief might lead someone to act contrary to God’s Will for us.

I do maintain that many things taught by the Latin Catholic church would not be wrong if they existed in the realm of pious opinion, or theologumena. It is the imposition of these inventions, under threat of damnation, which is the sin.

Especially when these cannot be shown to be Christian teaching essential to salvation.

Analogous to the hierarchy of needs (see Maslow), there is a hierarchy of doctrine. A little reflection should make it clear that what one believes CAN affect how one acts, or regards the Divine.

The base beliefs must be correct, after which additional Apostolic knowledge can be discerned if it is available. This is a process which has completed long ago. What cannot be discerned with surety must remain in the realm of speculation, like the non-essential novelties which come into fashion and popular myth but fade again over time.

What your church has done most recently is to take a less important theological speculation (namely that a Christian must be under the theological supervision of the bishop of Rome no matter what to be saved) and turned it into an excuse to damn people. Because of this arrogance on the part of an office holder in the church, this theological opinion has trumped all other dogmas. It does not matter whether one believes in the Holy Trinity and worships properly. It does not matter whether one believes in the bodily incarnation of Christ, and it does not matter if one makes an regular examination of conscience and properly sincerely confesses, participates in the other sacraments or makes other notable personal sacrifices in Faith (even martyrdom!).

By trumping all of these (especially out of pride of office) the church has made this historically lessor, later and regional theologically minor pious opinion more important than any other teaching of the church, more important than the Ten Commandments of God, more important than any Gospel teaching of Christ himself. It negates them all. It stands Christian theology upon it’s head, completely inverting the hierarchy of dogma, the Apostolic and Gospel Faith.

The perpetration of this monstrosity is a very great sin indeed.

As Jesus did say: *"…But woe to you scribes and Pharisees…hypocrites! Because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men.
For you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter!"
MTT 23:13
*

Wow, you should win an award for the dramatic performance put on in this post!

Please show all the people on this public forum, that you just lied to, where in Catholic teaching Divine Revelation takes a back seat to merely being subject to the Pope.
Where does it say in Catholic teaching that believing in the Trinity or the incarnation is not important, but, merely only being subject to the Pope is??
This post is despicable! You should be banned for this post!

 

[Hesychios]

Wow, you should win an award for the dramatic performance put on in this post!

Please show all the people on this public forum, that you just lied to, where in Catholic teaching Divine Revelation takes a back seat to merely being subject to the Pope.
Where does it say in Catholic teaching that believing in the Trinity or the incarnation is not important, but, merely only being subject to the Pope is??
This post is despicable! You should be banned for this post!

It’s a perfectly logical argument.

If it makes you uncomfortable I cannot help you there. Sure, if you want me to be banned that will send quite a message to the people who read here. I am surprised that this is how you choose to confront the facts, but I do not lie.

The last thing in the world I would do is lie to you or anyone else. The people here (you included) are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray for Christian unity often.

Now, according to Pope Eugene quoted above (and here again) nothing anyone can do, regardless of what they believe and in spite of any Christian acts of love or sacrifice on their part will be sent to hell if they are not subject to the bishop of Rome.

*“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and **will ***go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”
Cantate Domino, 1441AD

Let us not forget that Vatican Council I anathematizes any and all who who deny that the bishop of Rome has Universal Jurisdiction over the entire Christian church in the fullest sense.

Are you prepared to call Pope Eugene a liar, in the same manner as you accused me?

Perhaps there should be a ban on quoting from Cantate Domino on this forum then.

Michael Jarzab

 

[jam070406]

It’s a perfectly logical argument.

If it makes you uncomfortable I cannot help you there. Sure, if you want me to be banned that will send quite a message to the people who read here. I am surprised that this is how you choose to confront the facts, but I do not lie.

The last thing in the world I would do is lie to you or anyone else. The people here (you included) are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray for Christian unity often.

Now, according to Pope Eugene quoted above (and here again) nothing anyone can do, regardless of what they believe and in spite of any Christian acts of love or sacrifice on their part will be sent to hell if they are not subject to the bishop of Rome.

Let us not forget that Vatican Council I anathematizes any and all who who deny that the bishop of Rome has Universal Jurisdiction over the entire Christian church in the fullest sense.

Are you prepared to call Pope Eugene a liar, in the same manner as you accused me?

Perhaps there should be a ban on quoting from Cantate Domino on this forum then.

Michael Jarzab

It doesn’t make me uncomfortable. As if you are telling me some sort of new revelation that somehow debunks (in your mind) Catholicism.
It makes me angry because you’ve been here long enough to know not to write such inflammatory nonsense.
You say you came to defend Orthodoxy but then launch into an attack on Catholics and the Pope.
You say you want to present Orthodoxy in a good light to lurkers but sorry my friend, hate filled, biased rants such as the one you displayed seem counter productive to your cause.
You’ve managed to blend Catholic teaching with completely baseless polemic dribble.
I’m not referring to the Pope’s quotes. I’m referring to YOUR disrespectful claims that somehow Catholics are so stupid as to just abandon all reason and assume all that is needed is to bow down to the Pope.
The spirit of Schism has a tight grip on you.
Perhaps being banned is too harsh. Maybe just putting you on my ignore list is sufficent.