Roman Canon (EPI) in the OF

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EcceAgnusDei

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I was wondering how often and under which circumstances people who attend the OF hear the Roman Canon. I’ve only heard it twice in the OF, once on Holy Thursday and then once during the Easter season.

Also, has anyone ever been to an OF where the Roman Canon was said silently? Does the GIRM allow this? I would hope so, since the Canons of Trent made it clear that saying one cannot pray the Canon silently is condemned.
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I am a Byzantine Catholic, so I only occasionally attend Mass, usually a daily Mass. I do hear the Roman Canon from time to time, however. The most recent occasion was at my nephew’s Confirmation last month.
 
EcceAgnusDei said:
Also, has anyone ever been to an OF where the Roman Canon was said silently? Does the GIRM allow this? I would hope so, since the Canons of Trent made it clear that saying one cannot pray the Canon silently is condemned.
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The Holy Father (writing as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) discussed this over a few pages in The Spirit of the Liturgy. In short, his answer was that yes, the Eucharistic Prayer can (and should) be prayed silently, and goes on to suggest that the priest should perhaps state the first word or two of each prayer audibly so the faithful can follow along in prayer (similar to how the priest in the EF states the “Nobis quoque peccatoribus” louder).

That said, I have never been to an OF Mass where the Canon was prayed silently.

Regarding your first question, I typically only hear EP1 (the Roman Canon) in the OF on solemnities of Our Lord or Our Lady, and occasionally on feast days of saints mentioned in the prayers of the Canon.
 
I attend Sunday Mass at a Benedictine Monastery. The OF Mass is in Gregorian chant for Propers and Ordinary, French plainchant for the rest.

They do the Roman Canon fairly frequently; I’d say on average about once a month, and on some high occasions.

Frankly, I don’t care for it that much. I find it flows poorly, and is repetitive, which makes it too long. But it is used frequently enough.
 
OraLabora said:
Frankly, I don’t care for it that much. I find it flows poorly, and is repetitive, which makes it too long.
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?

What is repetitive about it? Is is composed of separate prayers, each with a specific intention.
 
I can’t remember when I’ve last heard EP I in my parish. It’s usually EP II, year in and year out. Oh, wait, IIRC, we had a Maltese priest fill in for 3 weeks during Lent about 10 years ago. I believe he didn’t use anything but the Roman Canon.

I don’t think I’ve ever experienced an inaudible EP since Vat. II.

Side note: That same Maltese priest also ordered the choir to sing the Sanctus & Agnus Dei in Latin – sadly, they couldn’t and he ended up singing them himself.
 
MarkThompson said:
EcceAgnusDei;9321793:
Does the GIRM allow this?
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No it doesn’t, but you are perfectly welcome to bring earplugs if hearing it bothers you. 🙂
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Ha!

Seriously, though, if the GIRM does not allow this, how does one reconcile that with Trent:
Chapter IX Canon IX. If any one shall say, that the rite of the Roman Church, whereby a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a softened tone, is to be condemned; … let him be anathema.
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Our priests use the Roman Canon fairly frequently - yes, usually for feasts, solemnities, or sepcial Masses, but that makes sense.

One of our priests, who is an amazing historian, will use EP from other sources (for funerals for example) at daily Mass as appropriate with the day. He lets us know which he is saying and why, it’s quite an education.

I don’t understand why it would be better or recommended to say the prayers silently. Especially since there is more than one and they begin similarly, I think it is needlessly distracting for the congregation to be flipping through their missals or, heaven forbid, not reading them at all.

I don’t think there is a conflict for the GRIM to state that priests should pray audiably and Trent saying that you shouldn’t say they can never be prayed silently. Presumeably in appropriate situations - private Masses, Masses said at a place like a seminary or school, the priest could pray them silently.
 
EcceAgnusDei said:
Ha!

Seriously, though, if the GIRM does not allow this, how does one reconcile that with Trent:
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The Church disallowing the saying of the Canon inaudibly in the OF is not the Church condemning that action, just disallowing it.

That is the answer.

Now, if some random Cardinal or whoever genuinely condemned it, then he would be anathematizing himself.

To condemn something in the liturgy is a principled act, to disallow it is an act of praxis.

NB: Please don’t infer any liturgical preferences of mine from this post.
 
EcceAgnusDei said:
I was wondering how often and under which circumstances people who attend the OF hear the Roman Canon. I’ve only heard it twice in the OF, once on Holy Thursday and then once during the Easter season.

Also, has anyone ever been to an OF where the Roman Canon was said silently? Does the GIRM allow this? I would hope so, since the Canons of Trent made it clear that saying one cannot pray the Canon silently is condemned.
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Didn’t someone complain in another thread that this forum only existed so that certain individuals could take pot shots at the EF?

What’s the point of all this here?

-Tim-
 
I recall a very recent thread where someone opined that this forum might exist only so that specific individuals could take pot-shots at the EF. .

I really hope that the motivation for this thread is genuine interest rather than shooting holes in the OF as well.

One would hate to have the appearance of hipocrisy in our midst. 😃

-Tim-
 
EcceAgnusDei said:
Seriously, though, if the GIRM does not allow this, how does one reconcile that with Trent:
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Indeed.

And even worse IMO, how did microphones find their way into the altar? They’re doing that sadly even with the EF these days.
 
TimothyH said:
I recall a very recent thread where someone opined that this forum might exist only so that specific individuals could take pot-shots at the EF. .

I really hope that the motivation for this thread is genuine interest rather than shooting holes in the OF as well.

One would hate to have the appearance of hipocrisy in our midst. 😃

-Tim-
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The question of the various Eucharist Prayers and their possible intended use was being discussed on another thread. I didn’t want to derail that thread with these particular questions. I rarely rarely attend the OF anymore, so I was genuinely curious as to how often EPI is used, since when I did attend the OF I hardly ever (only twice) heard it. This got me to thinking about the Canon being said silently and how that might apply to the OF and how it might be reconciled with Trent.

Have I sufficiently explained myself to you? Am I still a hypocrite in your midst?
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EcceAgnusDei said:
Ha!

Seriously, though, if the GIRM does not allow this, how does one reconcile that with Trent:
  • PAX
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YTC is right. More to the point, Trent was not attempting to make a dogma of the Catholic faith out of the decibel level of reciting the Canon (nor could it). Rather, this was a response to Protestants, who objected to the Catholic way of doing things (e.g., praying to saints; having Mass in Latin) not merely on the prudential grounds that they were bad ideas (might as well pray straight to God; would make more sense to have Mass in the vernacular), but on the theological grounds that they were blasphemous (prayer to the saints is idolatrous; Mass in Latin is contrary to divine institution). In the passage at hand, Trent is providing a theological answer to this theological question – you cannot say it is immoral or an affront to God to recite the Canon silently. This does not affect the issue of whether later ecclesiastical authority may legislate against the practice for prudential reasons.
 
MarkThompson said:
YTC is right. More to the point, Trent was not attempting to make a dogma of the Catholic faith out of the decibel level of reciting the Canon (nor could it). Rather, this was a response to Protestants, who objected to the Catholic way of doing things (e.g., praying to saints; having Mass in Latin) not merely on the prudential grounds that they were bad ideas (might as well pray straight to God; would make more sense to have Mass in the vernacular), but on the theological grounds that they were blasphemous (prayer to the saints is idolatrous; Mass in Latin is contrary to divine institution). In the passage at hand, Trent is providing a theological answer to this theological question – you cannot say it is immoral or an affront to God to recite the Canon silently. This does not affect the issue of whether later ecclesiastical authority may legislate against the practice for prudential reasons.
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Thanks for the informative answer. Condemnation of a silent Canon is wrong, but disallowing a silent Canon (as long as it is not condemned) is fine. I noticed that in the Canons of Trent concerning the Mass, the most common anathematized verbs were “deny,” “disallow,” and “says.” In fact, I think this might have been the only use of the verb “condemn.” That helps clarify the situation as well. If the canon had said: “those who disallow the Roman Canon to be said inaudibly are anathema” then it would be harder to reconcile with the current GIRM. But condemn subtly means something different than disallow.

Thanks again for the responses.
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YoungTradCath said:
The Church disallowing the saying of the Canon inaudibly in the OF is not the Church condemning that action, just disallowing it.

That is the answer.

Now, if some random Cardinal or whoever genuinely condemned it, then he would be anathematizing himself.

To condemn something in the liturgy is a principled act, to disallow it is an act of praxis.

NB: Please don’t infer any liturgical preferences of mine from this post.
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To be fair, it seems the fact that the option of using any one of four EP almost requires to have it prayed out loud. Otherwise we wouldn’t know which one is used. Logically, if there is only one EP, of course, we don’t need to hear it as we know were we can follow the Latin or some translation in our handmissals or from memory. Just saying.
 
The bishop used EP1 Holy Thursday, Easter Vigil, and I’m pretty sure on Easter. I’ve heard it a couple times on Christmas, and a few other times during the year (there’s one priest who’ll sometimes throw it into the rotation during a weekday Mass).

I was visiting my parents once and there was a newly ordained priest saying his first Mass as a priest assigned to that parish, and he used EP1. I was impressed, and I’m sure half the congregation had no idea what was going on (although, there was a priest there for a while that often used the EP’s for Various Needs, which was the first time I’d heard those).

When it comes to EPs, the one that I don’t remember hearing very often at all is EP4 (can’t say I’ve ever heard EP for Children or Reconciliation). I know I’ve seen a priest use it once, and beyond that I don’t think I’ve ever heard it. I’d say EP1 is probably the 3rd most common EP I’ve heard used (we’ve had a few priests come through that are learning english, so they usually start out with EP2 since it’s the easiest/shortest).
 
ProVobis said:
To be fair, it seems the fact that the option of using any one of four EP almost requires to have it prayed out loud. Otherwise we wouldn’t know which one is used. Logically, if there is only one EP, of course, we don’t need to hear it as we know were we can follow the Latin or some translation in our handmissals or from memory. Just saying.
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This is one good reason why, as I previously referred to, then-Cardinal Ratzinger suggested that “the first words of the various prayers should be said out loud as a kind of cue for the congregation, so that each individual in his silent prayer can take up the intonation and bring the personal into the communal and the communal into the personal” (The Spirit of the Liturgy p. 215).

Sad that the Holy Father’s views on the sacred Liturgy don’t seem to be permissible according to the current GIRM…
 
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