Roman Catholic Archbishop Gomez will be the Guest of Honor at the 4th Annual Ecumenical Prayer Service

[dzheremi]

Of course Catholics, Greeks, and all kinds of other non-OO have attended the enthronement of the Coptic Orthodox Pope. It is the national church. It’d be a slap in the face and a break with (social, not Church) tradition not to (as it was when Morsi did not show, though nobody was surprised). We enjoy good relations with all, but none of that speaks to the rightness or wrongness of holding ecumenical prayer services, which is what I have been posting about.

And nowhere did I say that the Synods can’t rule on whatever want to, although I don’t know why they should have to get involved in the absence of communion (although of course I would prefer some sort of ban on these things, the same way that we in the COC do not allow marriages outside of the communion with a few strict exceptions; Armenians are more lenient than us in this, too). You don’t need a synod to tell you that you shouldn’t pray with Catholics and Protestants and all manners of other non-Orthodox people if you’re Orthodox. If you want to do it anyway, that’s on you and you’ll have to answer for it, but it’s not such a crazy position to oppose these public prayer days or whatever.

 

[Peter_J]

Get what? From the Catechism:

If ecumenical prayer was good enough for John Paul the Great, that is all the “getting” I need.

Hi pnewton. I think I pretty much share your approach here. Nevertheless, after reading your post (especially the quoted portion) I really have to ask: Do you realize that dzeremi is Oriental Orthodox, not Catholic?

 

[pnewton]

Hi pnewton. I think I pretty much share your approach here. Nevertheless, after reading your post (especially the quoted portion) I really have to ask: Do you realize that dzeremi is Oriental Orthodox, not Catholic?

Yes, finally. You hit the nail on the head. This being posted in the wrong forum threw me. I guess it should have been over in the Non-Catholic forums or Catholic News. I will say at least this has given me some insight. I am so glad that I found the Catholic Church while studying Church history.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, finally. You hit the nail on the head. This being posted in the wrong forum threw me.

OIC. I hadn’t really thought about which forum this thead is in (I check this forum and the Non-Catholic Religions Forum about equally).

 

[ronyodish]

God bless the Armenians!..

Rony

 

[ronyodish]

Brethren,

From the Catholic perspective, the Armenians and the rest of the Oriental Orthodox, are called to preserve in their Holy Orthodox Faith, and to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church with no addition, or subtraction, or alteration to the Faith of their Fathers, and the traditions of their Churches!

The above paragraph may sound strange to some of our Catholic and non-Catholic brethren, but the official understanding of the Catholic Church in regards the Orthodox is spelled out in Vatican II’s Decree on Ecumenism:

“After taking all these factors into consideration, this Sacred Council solemnly repeats the declaration of previous Councils and Roman Pontiffs, that for the restoration or the maintenance of unity and communion it is necessary ‘to impose no burden beyond what is essential’” (par. 18).

And what is essential, according to the Catholic Church? Three things are essential:

1. Confession of the Apostolic Faith (Orthodox/Catholic Faith).
2. Celebration of the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments).
3. Communion with the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church (Pope, Patriarchs, Bishops).

These three requirements are also directed towards the Eastern Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

Aside from these essential points, the Churches are free to engage in their own theological expressions, to celebrate in their own liturgical texts, to pray in their own spiritual devotions, and to govern themselves according to their own canonical disciplines.

So, the Catholic Church believes that these separated Easterns/Orientals/Assyrians are built upon a true and Orthodox Faith, as well as, a true Apostolic Succession that includes the Eucharist and the Priesthood. Because of this, they already confess the Aposltolic Faith, and they already celebrate the Holy Mysteries. What they lack, therefore, is full communion with the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, and full unity with their Catholic counterpart Churches.

From their perspective, we are lacking in the Orthodox Faith, but from our perspective, they are lacking in the Universal Communion. I hope the ecumenical dialogues will solve these matters, but it will take some time, some mutual understanding, and openness to the will of God the Holy Spirit. In the mean time, I think these ecumenical prayer meetings are a positive step towards more dialogue and engagement. I see them as appetizers, not as full meal solutions, but as small ice breakers to get things going, to get Christians to talk to one another.

God bless,

Rony

 

[dzheremi]

Except for the final three sentences, what does any of your post have to do with the topic of this thread, Rony?

 

[pnewton]

From their perspective, we are lacking in the Orthodox Faith, but from our perspective, they are lacking in the Universal Communion. I hope the ecumenical dialogues will solve these matters, but it will take some time, some mutual understanding, and openness to the will of God the Holy Spirit. In the mean time, I think these ecumenical prayer meetings are a positive step towards more dialogue and engagement.

Exactly. I would even say that ecumenical prayer is more important than dialogue, because prayer leads to love. All the dialogue without a mutual charity is the noisy gong I referred to earlier. I believe the Armenian Church is wise to pursue the highest course of action in advance of the lesser important details.

 

[Peter_J]

Brethren,

From the Catholic perspective, the Armenians and the rest of the Oriental Orthodox, are called to preserve in their Holy Orthodox Faith, and to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church with no addition, or subtraction, or alteration to the Faith of their Fathers, and the traditions of their Churches!

The above paragraph may sound strange to some of our Catholic and non-Catholic brethren, but the official understanding of the Catholic Church in regards the Orthodox is spelled out in Vatican II’s Decree on Ecumenism:

“After taking all these factors into consideration, this Sacred Council solemnly repeats the declaration of previous Councils and Roman Pontiffs, that for the restoration or the maintenance of unity and communion it is necessary ‘to impose no burden beyond what is essential’” (par. 18).

And what is essential, according to the Catholic Church? Three things are essential:

1. Confession of the Apostolic Faith (Orthodox/Catholic Faith).
2. Celebration of the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments).
3. Communion with the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church (Pope, Patriarchs, Bishops).

These three requirements are also directed towards the Eastern Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

Aside from these essential points, the Churches are free to engage in their own theological expressions, to celebrate in their own liturgical texts, to pray in their own spiritual devotions, and to govern themselves according to their own canonical disciplines.

So, the Catholic Church believes that these separated Easterns/Orientals/Assyrians are built upon a true and Orthodox Faith, as well as, a true Apostolic Succession that includes the Eucharist and the Priesthood. Because of this, they already confess the Aposltolic Faith, and they already celebrate the Holy Mysteries. What they lack, therefore, is full communion with the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, and full unity with their Catholic counterpart Churches.

From their perspective, we are lacking in the Orthodox Faith, but from our perspective, they are lacking in the Universal Communion. I hope the ecumenical dialogues will solve these matters, but it will take some time, some mutual understanding, and openness to the will of God the Holy Spirit. In the mean time, I think these ecumenical prayer meetings are a positive step towards more dialogue and engagement. I see them as appetizers, not as full meal solutions, but as small ice breakers to get things going, to get Christians to talk to one another.

God bless,

Rony

I have to agree with dzeremi, if not on the particular wording of his response, at least on the underlying sentiment (or what I “assume” is the underlying sentiment ). Or to look at it another way, I think every once in a while we should just take a little break from reminding the Orthodox that they ought to enter into full communion with Rome.

 

[Peter_J]

Exactly. I would even say that ecumenical prayer is more important than dialogue, because prayer leads to love. All the dialogue without a mutual charity is the noisy gong I referred to earlier. I believe the Armenian Church is wise to pursue the highest course of action in advance of the lesser important details.

As I said earlier, I agree with you that ecumenical prayer is a good thing, but I can’t say that your argument makes sense to me. I mean, what of all the common prayer that we have had with Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, etc? It hasn’t led to reunion with those groups (I mean corporately, of course – obviously a small fraction of them have become Catholic / come into communion with Rome).

 

[pnewton]

(I mean corporately, of course – obviously a small fraction of them have become Catholic / come into communion with Rome).

As one of the fraction, I think it is fruitful.

I like to throw this link out from another Catholic convert when ever the subject of ecumenism comes up.
peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm

I think there is movement toward unity. We also do not kill each other like we used to. This too is a moral good.

 

[Peter_J]

As one of the fraction, I think it is fruitful.

I like to throw this link out from another Catholic convert when ever the subject of ecumenism comes up.
peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm

I think there is movement toward unity. We also do not kill each other like we used to. This too is a moral good.

Thanks, but I don’t read Peter Kreeft (well, anymore).

So do you see ecumenism and joint prayer as an attempt to get Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc to become Catholic?

 

[ronyodish]

Except for the final three sentences, what does any of your post have to do with the topic of this thread, Rony?

If the moderator thinks that the post is irrelevant to the topic of this thread, then the moderator can remove it.

I have to agree with dzeremi, if not on the particular wording of his response, at least on the underlying sentiment (or what I “assume” is the underlying sentiment ). Or to look at it another way, I think every once in a while we should just take a little break from reminding the Orthodox that they ought to enter into full communion with Rome.

Like when the Orthodox keep reminding us that we lack the Faith of the Apostles? I disagree with any anti-ecumenical or separatist sentiments, whether they come from the Orthodox or from our own Catholics.

God bless,

Rony

 

[Peter_J]

I have to agree with dzeremi, if not on the particular wording of his response, at least on the underlying sentiment (or what I “assume” is the underlying sentiment ). Or to look at it another way, I think every once in a while we should just take a little break from reminding the Orthodox that they ought to enter into full communion with Rome.

Yes, they should take a little break from that once in a while too.

 

[pnewton]

Thanks, but I don’t read Peter Kreeft (well, anymore).

So do you see ecumenism and joint prayer as an attempt to get Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc to become Catholic?

Yes, I do, but only at a high level.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, I do, but only at a high level.

Duly noted.

 

[ronyodish]

Yes, they should take a little break from that once in a while too.

Good luck with that brother… especially with those Orthodox who are more of the hardcore anti-ecumenical type.

God bless,

Rony

 

[janeway529]

UPDATE: Here’s an interesting photo from the event, which took place yesterday. It’s taken from the official Facebook page of the Western Diocese of the Armenian Church.

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p480x480/1441377_10152108359056111_1059136723_n.jpg

Caption: Ecumenical Service at St. Leon Cathedral.
Eminences Archbishop José H. Gomez (LA Roman-Catholic Archdiocese) & Archbishop Hovnan Derderian, Primate.

Details from Archbishop Gomez: “Friends, last night I joined our Orthodox brothers and sisters at St. Leon’s in Burbank to pray for religious liberty. Let’s pray today for all those who are oppressed or persecuted for their faith in God.”