Roman Catholic clergies' knowledge of and interaction with Eastern Catholicism

[mardukm]

There are still a lot of places where there are no ECs. In the Philippines it is exclusively RC.

I know of 2 Maronites, and a Syro-Malabar Indian family living here in the Phlippines. Of course, they worship at the LCC. Haven’t had the time to speak to them about their experience in the LCC.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[5Loaves]

As for the “letter from the bishop” - locally, the bishop instead reissued the ID cards instead, adding the good standing clause, and shortened the issue duration.

When priests are within a single Diocese/Archdiocese various methods may be in place for confirming their good standing. Here the parish priest can check it on line. In the case of an Eastern Catholic priest desiring to celebrate in a Latin Church Diocese he, EC, is from a different Diocese and just like a Latin Church priest from a different diocese due to the "comprehensive set of procedures established by the USCCB in June 2002 for addressing allegations of sexual abuse of minors by Catholic clergy" in the US he now needs a very recently issued Letter of Good Standing from his bishop, and possibly more than that. The Diocese where the visiting priest wishes to celebrate a rite is the diocese/bishop which decides what paper work they require of visiting priests.

 

[5Loaves]

Seminaries never really talk about other Rites. Some may be fortunate to have an EC bishop or theologian close by that they would have the occasional visit and talk.

Never talking about other Rites seems impossible. Also, never talking about other particular Churches seems impossible. They certainly aren’t likely to go into as much detail about other Rites, even of the Latin Church, as they do with the Roman Rite OF/EF, but I don’t see how they can study liturgy without some discussion of the various Rites of the Catholic Church. Likewise in Church history.

I’m not sure why they would need to know more than the very basics about us, that we exist and the basics of what the Church teaches about the importance of our traditions, and how to find us when someone is interested in getting to know us. We are the ones who should be teaching about our Churches to those who are interested.

The RCIA in the Latin parish where I’m a catechist has two seminarians from our local seminary assigned to our RCIA every academic year. They start with us after their fall semester begins and continue with us through the Mystagogy period after Easter. Right now one is from the Diocese of Hawaii, the other is from the Diocese of Sacramento. Diocese of Monterey and of Salt Lake City are two more who have had men with us. If I had a better memory I could remember the many other Diocese besides the local Diocese of Oakland and Archdiocese of San Francisco whose seminarians have come to work with our RCIA. I’m sure we’ve had at least a dozen diocese represented to which these seminaries will be returning. None has been uninformed about Eastern Catholics and all showed a great interest in us.

They have so far never come to us without some knowledge of ECCs. These are first year students, and are excited to discover I’m Eastern Catholic and eager to learn more. They haven’t been in seminary long when they come to us, tho some come from also having been in minor seminary, so they have been introduced to Eastern Catholics quite possibly before even getting to seminary.

Two weeks ago a Catechumen raised a question about Eastern Catholics and one of the seminarians fielded it well. I, the only Eastern Catholic in the room, didn’t feel the need to add a thing to what he said.

They’ve had Divine Liturgy celebrated early in the semester at the seminary by the local Byzantine/Ruthenian priest. The professor of systematic theology there has been coming several times a year to Divine Liturgy at my parish for years and I’m sure would come more often if his circumstances and ours were different.

Connected with the local Dominicans in training, who are not trained at that Seminary but in their our formation in the Western Provence, Fr Augustine Thompson, OP, professor at DSPT used to concelebrate the DL in the Melkite tradition when it was weekly celebrated at the St. Albert’s Priory in Oakland. Adjunct Faculty Fr. Brendan McAnerney, OP, is the Pastor of St. George Melkite-Greek Catholic Church in Sacramento. Fr. Christopher Fadok, OP (canonically UGCC), a graduate of DSPT is parochial vicar at Blessed Sacrament Parish in Seatlle. Abbot Nicholas, HRM, is a former Dominican.

At the recent Exaltation of the Holy Cross, old calendar, 6 Dominican novices (only five weeks into their novitiate) and their novice master and probably as many Dominican Sisters were at the Festal Vigil at Holy Virgin Cathedral (ROCOR) at the invitation of Bishop Kyrill, and stayed a couple more hours after our deacon and I left at the end of the Vespers service. (They haven’t been invited to our parish by our priest yet which I’m told is the reason they haven’t yet visited us.)

These are just some regional examples, although as I say the seminarians from this Diocesan Seminary include men returning to Diocese far and wide. The Dominican Western Province also covers a number of states so those novices will one day be sent out, as was Fr Christopher sent to Seattle, to parishes all over at least the Western Province.

 

[Celticnovice]

I have been attending an Eastern Parish for about two months, and was surprised one Sunday when I ran into one of the RC priests of my old parish at Divine Liturgy!

Turns out this priest is bi-ritual, and I have seen him at DL since then in the congregation.

Small world

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Never talking about other Rites seems impossible. Also, never talking about other particular Churches seems impossible. They certainly aren’t likely to go into as much detail about other Rites, even of the Latin Church, as they do with the Roman Rite OF/EF, but I don’t see how they can study liturgy without some discussion of the various Rites of the Catholic Church. Likewise in Church history.

Agreed. This weekend, I heard a current LC bishop speak of the interest rekindled in the Eastern Catholic Churches while studying in the seminary (raised in the Latin Church, he has Eastern European roots on one side of his family). Of course, when he shared with his instructors that he was interested in becoming bi-ritual, it wasn’t exactly encouraged , as he explained. Yet, he was eventually called by Christ to serve in this way.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I know of 2 Maronites, and a Syro-Malabar Indian family living here in the Phlippines. Of course, they worship at the LCC. Haven’t had the time to speak to them about their experience in the LCC.

Blessings,
Marduk

There is a biritual priest in UP where he is only allowed to celebrate in his own Rite once or twice a year. Even so, it is largely unknown to most people. The internet has changed that but still pretty far off from being known to most people.

BTW, are you goint to UST next month for the UGCC Divine Liturgy in Filipino?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Never talking about other Rites seems impossible. Also, never talking about other particular Churches seems impossible. They certainly aren’t likely to go into as much detail about other Rites, even of the Latin Church, as they do with the Roman Rite OF/EF, but I don’t see how they can study liturgy without some discussion of the various Rites of the Catholic Church. Likewise in Church history.

Well, it is very possible. Even in my area where there are EC parishes like ours. Even people who go to the same parish as where some EC missions have their Liturgy, people are largely unaware of ECs. Like I said, priests are focused on their own ministries. I’m not saying all priests are unaware, but their level of awareness also varies. Even with those priests I’ve seen come to our Liturgies during special occassions, I don’t know how much interest they have to even know more about us other than the occassional invite to a grand Divine Liturgy and a good meal. It just isn’t the focus of their ministry or studies. I’ve talked to a number of them or seen their articles in our local Catholic newspaper. Most of the regulars here at CAF, especially here on the EC forum, have more knowledge about the ECs than they do.

I’m not sure why they would need to know more than the very basics about us, that we exist and the basics of what the Church teaches about the importance of our traditions, and how to find us when someone is interested in getting to know us. We are the ones who should be teaching about our Churches to those who are interested.

Depends what you mean by basics. And even so, most of them even got the very basics wrong.

The RCIA in the Latin parish where I’m a catechist has two seminarians from our local seminary assigned to our RCIA every academic year. They start with us after their fall semester begins and continue with us through the Mystagogy period after Easter. Right now one is from the Diocese of Hawaii, the other is from the Diocese of Sacramento. Diocese of Monterey and of Salt Lake City are two more who have had men with us. If I had a better memory I could remember the many other Diocese besides the local Diocese of Oakland and Archdiocese of San Francisco whose seminarians have come to work with our RCIA. I’m sure we’ve had at least a dozen diocese represented to which these seminaries will be returning. None has been uninformed about Eastern Catholics and all showed a great interest in us.

Your diocese is blessed, send some people over

As I said, I’ve tried to get people interested and invovled. No bites. It’s just a completely different culture in my area and I won’t be surprised if this is more of a prevailing culture than what you have over where you are. I’ve tried on different levels to get people to be interested, I am the one approaching them, yet I always get the, “hey, that is a great idea!” and then that is the last I hear from them.

They have so far never come to us without some knowledge of ECCs. These are first year students, and are excited to discover I’m Eastern Catholic and eager to learn more. They haven’t been in seminary long when they come to us, tho some come from also having been in minor seminary, so they have been introduced to Eastern Catholics quite possibly before even getting to seminary.

Two weeks ago a Catechumen raised a question about Eastern Catholics and one of the seminarians fielded it well. I, the only Eastern Catholic in the room, didn’t feel the need to add a thing to what he said.

They’ve had Divine Liturgy celebrated early in the semester at the seminary by the local Byzantine/Ruthenian priest. The professor of systematic theology there has been coming several times a year to Divine Liturgy at my parish for years and I’m sure would come more often if his circumstances and ours were different.

Connected with the local Dominicans in training, who are not trained at that Seminary but in their our formation in the Western Provence, Fr Augustine Thompson, OP, professor at DSPT used to concelebrate the DL in the Melkite tradition when it was weekly celebrated at the St. Albert’s Priory in Oakland. Adjunct Faculty Fr. Brendan McAnerney, OP, is the Pastor of St. George Melkite-Greek Catholic Church in Sacramento. Fr. Christopher Fadok, OP (canonically UGCC), a graduate of DSPT is parochial vicar at Blessed Sacrament Parish in Seatlle. Abbot Nicholas, HRM, is a former Dominican.

At the recent Exaltation of the Holy Cross, old calendar, 6 Dominican novices (only five weeks into their novitiate) and their novice master and probably as many Dominican Sisters were at the Festal Vigil at Holy Virgin Cathedral (ROCOR) at the invitation of Bishop Kyrill, and stayed a couple more hours after our deacon and I left at the end of the Vespers service. (They haven’t been invited to our parish by our priest yet which I’m told is the reason they haven’t yet visited us.)

These are just some regional examples, although as I say the seminarians from this Diocesan Seminary include men returning to Diocese far and wide. The Dominican Western Province also covers a number of states so those novices will one day be sent out, as was Fr Christopher sent to Seattle, to parishes all over at least the Western Province.

Is it because there is more cooperation between EC and LC in your area? It seems here we are always in our own bubble and they are in their own bubble. Believe me, I’ve tried and tried and tried. Whatever works for your area needs to happen in mine and it would take more than just myself.

 

[babochka]

Is it because there is more cooperation between EC and LC in your area? It seems here we are always in our own bubble and they are in their own bubble. Believe me, I’ve tried and tried and tried. Whatever works for your area needs to happen in mine and it would take more than just myself.

5loaves and I live in the same region, but in different dioceses. I have never met a priest who is unfamiliar with the Eastern Churches, though I have met many, many laity who have no knowledge of us. The level of cooperation between the Latin Diocese and the Eastern Churches in our area (and there are several) goes back decades, to the beginning of the establishment of Eastern parishes in our area (late 60s). Past Bishops have made gifts of their personal funds in order to help our parishes get established. Parishes have allowed the use of our facilities. Land has been donated by the diocese. Sure, there is some ignorance among the clergy about our practices, but that isn’t really surprising. They shouldn’t be required to have detailed knowledge about us. I honestly have no idea how it is elsewhere.

Whatever works for your area needs to happen in mine and it would take more than just myself.

I think it needs to be taught in the seminaries, and this will happen if the Bishops insist that it happen. Every priest should have read the documents of Vatican II, which includes Orientalium Ecclesiarum. It also should be taught in RCIA. Ideally, this would include attendance at a Divine Liturgy, but I understand that this is difficult because of the liturgical obligations of the Catechumens during this period. We had a class visit us during their Mystagogy period, which seemed to work.

Normally, I have found that younger priests (under 45) are the most open and interested in learning about us. There are a few notable exceptions to this, however. Two priests of the diocese (one now deceased) have been great friends to us for decades. They were both ordained in the 1950s in Ireland, in the same seminary class; both known for their orthodoxy and love for the traditions of their Church. Both have provided financial, practical and spiritual support to us for many years. I don’t know if their seminary formation had anything to do with it, but I suspect so.

I don’t mean to imply that things are great here. Our parish is down the street from a Latin Rite parish. We frequently get people who come to liturgy, but leave before it is over. I suspect they leave because they don’t believe it is a Catholic Church, or perhaps just don’t like it. We also get (mostly Spanish speaking) people coming by with fliers from the other parish, looking for CCD classes for their kids. This is part of the problem as well. If these people, who are seeking religious education for their children, don’t even know where the church is located, how can we expect them to know (or care) about us.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My experience with clergy has been pretty high level knowledge which wouldn’t even be knowledge at all. From, “Ukrainians make the sign of the cross with both hands” to “there are 12 Rites of the Catholic Church, one for each Apostle.” These are actual quotes.

But I agree with you babochka, they don’t need to know much about us. Their ministry isn’t hinged on the knowledge of Eastern Churches and Rites. That is why on the original thread I said that with regards to Sacraments we should “do as the Romans do” rather than expect to be treated like home. At the end of the day, we’re guests in their parishes until we make it our home. And if it is our home then we still follow their discipline.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I have never met a priest who is unfamiliar with the Eastern Churches, though I have met many, many laity who have no knowledge of us. The level of cooperation between the Latin Diocese and the Eastern Churches in our area (and there are several) goes back decades, to the beginning of the establishment of Eastern parishes in our area (late 60s). Past Bishops have made gifts of their personal funds in order to help our parishes get established. Parishes have allowed the use of our facilities. Land has been donated by the diocese.

Although we got off to a rocky start here in the U.S., the cooperation of which you speak cannot be denied nor underestimated. There has been great sacrifice and assistance given to the Eastern Catholic Churches in more recent decades (post-Vatican II), as you have well summarized.

Sure, there is some ignorance among the clergy about our practices, but that isn’t really surprising. They shouldn’t be required to have detailed knowledge about us.

Detailed knowledge, no. Familiarity, yes.

 

[5Loaves]

Is it because there is more cooperation between EC and LC in your area? It seems here we are always in our own bubble and they are in their own bubble.

By my area do you mean the Diocese of Hawaii, of Sacramento, of Monterey, of Salt Lake City, of San Francisco, of Oakland, and Mount Angel, OR-- places I can remember where we’ve had seminarians work with my Latin Church RCIA, and they have shown a basic knowledge of ECCs?

I don’t understand why you discount my experiences, and those of some other folks here who have made responses similar to mine, as if these are an anomaly. I have no problem with you making whatever statements you want to make about the Churches in your personal experience. I have to continue to disagree with the black and white way you characterize the Latin Church, the faithful of the Latin Church, Latin Clergy. Likewise with similar broad brush negative statements about Eastern Catholic Churches and the clergy and faithful.

Believe me, I’ve tried and tried and tried

Why so much resentment about this, both in terms of the Latin Church, and also with the Eastern Catholics?

In terms of the Latin Church, again, I find that the vast majority of clergy and seminarians I meet know we exist and some basics about us, if not more. Read what’s on Wikipedia about Eastern Catholic Churches. If Latin clergy have a basic sense of what’s written there, that seems enough to me. I don’t know why they need to know more than that. If someone is interested in us we all agree that the best thing to do is go worship in an ECC. If there is no ECC near them, they can visit Orthodox Churches, but it’s very difficult to become immersed in Eastern Catholicism if there is no EC community of which to be part, sadly.

 

[Aramis]

In terms of the Latin Church, again, I find that the vast majority of clergy and seminarians I meet know we exist and some basics about us, if not more. Read what’s on Wikipedia about Eastern Catholic Churches. If Latin clergy have a basic sense of what’s written there, that seems enough to me. I don’t know why they need to know more than that. If someone is interested in us we all agree that the best thing to do is go worship in an ECC. If there is no ECC near them, they can visit Orthodox Churches, but it’s very difficult to become immersed in Eastern Catholicism if there is no EC community of which to be part, sadly.

Some don’t even know that much.

But, at least if they are anywhere near a military base, there is a not-slim possibility of encountering Catholics of the Eastern Rites as parishioners…

At least in some Dioceses, they get referred correctly to deeply knowledgable priests.

In the last 20 years, I’ve seen 2 Chaldean families, 1 maronite family, 3 UGCC Families, 1 Ruthenian family, and 2 Melkite families get assigned to local bases. Of the Melkites, one of them took refuge in the local Antiochian Orthodox parish; the other at the local Roman parish. And that’s just ones I’ve KNOWN of. One of the Chaldean families attended the local Roman parish, the other the Ruthenian Parish.

While only 2% of Catholics are of the Eastern Churches, I’ve seen stats showing that about 3% of the Catholics in the US Military are Eastern. (Published by the Chaplain corps in the mid 1990’s.) Likewise, while Catholics make up only 23% of the US, they’re over 30% of the US military (At one point, it was 65% of the military!)

 

[5Loaves]

…But, at least if they are anywhere near a military base, there is a not-slim possibility of encountering Catholics of the Eastern Rites as parishioners…

In the last 20 years, I’ve seen 2 Chaldean families, 1 maronite family, 3 UGCC Families, 1 Ruthenian family, and 2 Melkite families get assigned to local bases. Of the Melkites, one of them took refuge in the local Antiochian Orthodox parish; the other at the local Roman parish. And that’s just ones I’ve KNOWN of. One of the Chaldean families attended the local Roman parish, the other the Ruthenian Parish.

While only 2% of Catholics are of the Eastern Churches, I’ve seen stats showing that about 3% of the Catholics in the US Military are Eastern. (Published by the Chaplain corps in the mid 1990’s.) Likewise, while Catholics make up only 23% of the US, they’re over 30% of the US military (At one point, it was 65% of the military!)

Thank you so much for this important reminder of these our people in military service, and also for these statistics. An EC priest friend left military chaplainy a couple of years ago and has talked often of feeling the pull to go back. A chancery priest who lives at my Latin parish and celebrates Mass for us several times a week just completed a period as a military chaplain. He’s such a gift to us. He must have been a wonderful chaplain there.