Roman Catholic looking into Orthodoxy

[Fr_Ambrose]

hlgomez:

We don’t allow contraception and divorce, etc. and we will continue to preach that. We don’t give in to the earthly desires of men.

But you do give in to the earthly desires of men. Please refer to the Catholic Answers page on Contraception and Sterilisation.

catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

Roman Catholic bishops used to teach:

“To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature” (The Instructor of Children , 2:10:95:3).

This was Catholic teaching before Vatican II. It is no longer Catholic teaching.

Catholics may now have sex with no intention of producing a child.

 

[jco2004]

Second, your mention of being “headless” with an attendant appeal to a church with a “head”, the relationship of Clement as disciple of Paul, and the common foundation you speak of actually weakens your argument, because there was another place quite close to Corinth that satisfies those same conditions – Athens.

Athens was not a center of authority in the early church The closest center of authority to Corinth in the late first century was Rome. Hence, Father’s point stands. Joe

 

[petra]

GAssisi:

Dear Father,
I believe Petra was supporting your view. She made her statement as a reductio ad absurdum argument.

That is correct.

 

[Aris]

This thread has veered too much hopelessly off topic.

Are we to help KFK or debate something already discussed elsewhere?

 

[Theodred]

“The sensus fidelium is, in and of itself, part of Tradition, and can not, under any circumstances, be ignored by the teaching office of the bishops. You need to study your Catholicism a bit more.”

Here is the sensus fidelium of the Catholic faithful as regards contraception:

96% of all Catholic women who have ever had sex have used

modern contraceptive methods at some point in their lives.

75% of Catholic women of childbearing age who are currently sexually active use a contraceptive method forbidden by the church.

Sexually active Catholic women who attend church once a week or more use contraception at about the same rate as Catholic women who attend church less frequently (monthly)—73.5% vs. 75%

What? And you accused me of being anti-Orthodox in my statements! Why don’t you go and join Jack Chick’s crowd… you use the same kind of misinformation as they do.

To all. The sensus fidelium is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church against which the gates of hell will not prevail. The Holy Spirit operates in all the faithful by virtue of their baptism, and the Holy Spirit can not be defeated by sin.

 

[Theodred]

petra:

Interestingly, there is a CA page with quotations from Augustine to support the primacy of Peter (catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp). (Doesn’t CA know about the retractions?) If the Church discounts Augustine’s later retractions on the subject with the disclaimer that individuals do not have the charism of infallibility and that Augustine “fell into serious errors”, then the supporting statements cannot be used either. The quotation of any church father to support the antiquity of a doctrine is, therefore, meaningless.

The Church does not exist to serve Tradition. It’s the other way around. Tradition serves the Church. If all we had was Tradition, then, of course, it would be meaningless because any individual or group can read that Tradition anyway they so choose. The same holds for Scripture.

There are three aspects of Divine Revelation: Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium. While thousands of Protestants read a single verse of Scripture thousands of different ways, Catholics read the same verse in only one doctrinal way because the Catholic Church reads that verse in light of the Tradition of the Church and the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the Magisterium. The same holds for the Church Fathers (a single aspect of a multi-layered thing called Tradition). The Church Fathers can be read any number of ways if divorsed from Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium.

It is in this way that the Holy Spirit reveals all things to us. It is this way that the Truth of Divine Revelation is preserved.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Théodred:

What? And you accused me of being anti-Orthodox in my statements! Why don’t you go and join Jack Chick’s crowd… you use the same kind of misinformation as they do.

I don’t see statistics as being either pro-Catholic or anti-Catholic. They are just…well, statistics.

And I have no idea what they have to do with Jack Chick

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Théodred:

Tradition serves the Church. If all we had was Tradition, then, of course, it would be meaningless because any individual or group can read that Tradition anyway they so choose.

Orthodox Christians afford Tradition a greater place than the West allows.

The late Fr. Georges Florovsky wrote that:

“Tradition is not a principle striving to restore the past, using the past as a criterion for the present. Such a conception of tradition is rejected by history itself and by the consciousness of the Orthodox Church… Tradition is the constant abiding of the Spirit and not only the memory of words. Tradition is a charismatic, not a historical event”
The Catholicity of the Church in Bible, Church, Tradition, p. 47

In other words, Tradition is a gift of the Holy Spirit, a living experience, which is relived and renewed through time. It is the true faith, which is revealed by the Holy Spirit to the true people of God.

Tradition, therefore, cannot be reduced to a mere enumeration of quotations from the Scriptures or from the Fathers. It is the fruit of the incarnation of the Word of God, His crucifixion and resurrection as well as His ascension, all of which took place in space and time. Tradition is an extension of the life of Christ into the life of the Church.

According to St. Basil, Tradition is the continuous presence of the Holy Spirit:

“Through the Holy Spirit comes our restoration to paradise, our ascension into the kingdom of heaven, our return as adopted sons, our liberty to call God our Father, our being made partakers of the grace of Christ, our being called children of light, our sharing in eternal glory, and, in a word, our being brought into a state of a ‘fullness of blessing’ (Rom. 15: 29), both in this world and in the world to come…”
St. Basil of Caesaria, On the Holy Spirit, XV.

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“We are unchanged; we are still the same as we were in the eighth century… Oh that you could only consent to be again what you were once, when we were both united in faith and communion!” -Alexis Khomiakov

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Maccabees:

Some Eastern catholic churches only have the Divine Liturgy on Sunday and on Feast Days. For those that don’t have daily communion the latin mass is a nice option for those who choose to commune daily. I know some Eastern Catholic churches have daily communion but this is not always the case.
Hey don’t blame me talk to EC chures which have only Sunday Divine Liturgy. I am well aware of the independant status of the Eastern Church in fact it is so independant some choose to have Sunday only Divine Liturgy.

Mac,

Eastern Catholic Churches which serve the Divine Liturgy only on Sunday are the exception, not the norm, other than on aliturgical days. This is generally true only in mission parishes and those which are one of two parishes served by a single presbyter.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Irish Melkite:

Eastern Catholic Churches which serve the Divine Liturgy only on Sunday are the exception, not the norm, other than on aliturgical days. This is generally true only in mission parishes and those which are one of two parishes served by a single presbyter.

Neil, I did not know that you had daily Liturgy as the norm (or do you mean Sunday plus once or twice during the week?) In the Russian Church, as a general rule of thumb, a priest or monk is not normally given a blessing to serve daily Liturgy until he has received the gift of tears.

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God is the one loveable who is always rejoicing without end in infinite happiness.
~St.Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa, died 395

 

[Theodred]

Fr Ambrose:

I don’t see statistics as being either pro-Catholic or anti-Catholic. They are just…well, statistics.

And I have no idea what they have to do with Jack Chick

Those statistics have nothing to do with the sensus fidelium and you know it. It was misinformation.

 

[Theodred]

Fr Ambrose:

Orthodox Christians afford Tradition a greater place than the West allows.

The late Fr. Georges Florovsky wrote that:

“Tradition is not a principle striving to restore the past, using the past as a criterion for the present. Such a conception of tradition is rejected by history itself and by the consciousness of the Orthodox Church… Tradition is the constant abiding of the Spirit and not only the memory of words. Tradition is a charismatic, not a historical event”

The Catholicity of the Church in Bible, Church, Tradition, p. 47

In other words, Tradition is a gift of the Holy Spirit, a living experience, which is relived and renewed through time. It is the true faith, which is revealed by the Holy Spirit to the true people of God.

Tradition, therefore, cannot be reduced to a mere enumeration of quotations from the Scriptures or from the Fathers. It is the fruit of the incarnation of the Word of God, His crucifixion and resurrection as well as His ascension, all of which took place in space and time. Tradition is an extension of the life of Christ into the life of the Church.

According to St. Basil, Tradition is the continuous presence of the Holy Spirit:

“Through the Holy Spirit comes our restoration to paradise, our ascension into the kingdom of heaven, our return as adopted sons, our liberty to call God our Father, our being made partakers of the grace of Christ, our being called children of light, our sharing in eternal glory, and, in a word, our being brought into a state of a ‘fullness of blessing’ (Rom. 15: 29), both in this world and in the world to come…”

St. Basil of Caesaria, On the Holy Spirit, XV.

So what are you saying? Tradition is greater than the Church? That’s like saying the hand is greater than the body.

 

[prodromos]

Théodred:

So what are you saying? Tradition is greater than the Church? That’s like saying the hand is greater than the body.

False dichotomy.

 

[Theodred]

prodromos:

False dichotomy.

How so?

You know this seems to be a common thing on this forum. People just state things like “I disagree” “false dichotomy”, etc. without so much as an attempt to explain.

Edit: I’m not saying that tradition is to Church what the hand is to the body. It’s not about the dichotomy, it’s about the part not being greater than the whole.

 

[Mickey]

Okay, back to KFK’s original post:

I urge you again to look into Eastern Catholicism. As a Byzantine Catholic I never considered becoming Orthodox, because the issue of unity was very important in my spiritual journey. Being focused on unity, the Byzantine Catholic church was a logical place for me. I consider myself to be an Orthodox in full communion with Rome and the Pope. In the words of the Holy Father, we are: “breathing with both lungs,” East and West, in the Universal Church. As for the future of Eastern Catholicism there is reason for optimism. There are many recent converts and West-to-East pilgrims. I feel confident that trend will continue to grow. God Bless you on your journey KFK!

 

[hlgomez]

This was Catholic teaching before Vatican II. It is no longer Catholic teaching.

Catholics may now have sex with no intention of producing a child.

Fr, A,

Prove your point. Do we teach that in the Catechism? If you just heard it from a Catholic priest or bishop, but is not in conformity to the official teaching of the Magisterium, then don’t pay any attention to it. You’re basically relying on hearsay.

The NFP’s purpose is not solely on not intending to produce a child. You are twisting the Catholic teaching! How dare you? You’re misleading so many people here.

NFP is for the primary purpose of NOT commiting a sin thru contraception, which is intended for couples who wish not to have a child yet for certain valid reasons. It is not about the intention of not procreating. NFP is not contraception. There is NO engagement of actual sex here, father–get it? :ehh: Articifial contraception is the A-C-T of engaging with sex BUT not creating a child because the device is intended to block the conception of a child.

The BIG difference is the giving in of the orthodox church to secular and popular desires of people who wants contraception.

Pio

 

[prodromos]

hlgomez:

There is NO engagement of actual sex here, father–get it?

Oh but there is sex, but it is left for times when the couple are not going to be able to conceive. So all those sperm go swimming for nought.

 

[Mickey]

prodromos:

Oh but there is sex, but it is left for times when the couple are not going to be able to conceive. So all those sperm go swimming for nought.

How do you know they are swimming for nought. They are not being blocked artificially.

 

[Theodred]

My wife and I used NFP to have children. The Catholic Church teaches that the sexual act is for procreation, bodiliness, and friendship. Not any one only, but all three. A married couple can regulate births, not end all possibility of births. NFP allows married couples to use the gifts that God has given us to regulate births. Even if using NFP to avoid pregnancy, the couple still allows all bodily functions to work as they were intended by God. To use NFP to avoid pregnancy all the time is an abuse of NFP and marriage. That is completely in line with Church teaching.

 

[katolik]

Fr Ambrose:

Neil, I did not know that you had daily Liturgy as the norm (or do you mean Sunday plus once or twice during the week?) In the Russian Church, as a general rule of thumb, a priest or monk is not normally given a blessing to serve daily Liturgy until he has received the gift of tears.

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God is the one loveable who is always rejoicing without end in infinite happiness.
~St.Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa, died 395

Gift of tears?
What does that mean?