Roman Catholic OR Catholic?

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When I once had the privilete of meeting Pope John Paul II, I said words to the effect, “Greetings from the Particular Ukrainian Catholic Church, Holy Father and Head of the Particular Latin Catholic Church!”

He thought about it for a second, and then smiled in approval, nodding his head and offering his hand.

🙂

Alex
 
Maybe this will help clarify.
The LATIN **RITE **consists of Ambrosian, Mosarabic, & Roman catholics.
The ALEXANDRIAN RITE consists of Coptic & Ethiopian catholics
The ANTIOCHIAN INFLUENCE consists of the 3 middle groups which were started in Constantinople,Armenia,Syria and Chaldea. All those in the ANTIOCHIAN INFLUENCE are Eastern/Byzantine/Greek Catholic Rite.
Code:
                        JERUSALEM/CHURCH OF THE 12 APOSTLES
LATIN -------------------------**ANTIOCH **------------------- B]ALEXANDRIA
------------------------EASTERN/GREEK RITE---------------------------------------
Ambrosian…CAPADOCIAN…W.SYRIAN…E.SYRIAN…Coptic
Mosarabic…(Constantinople)…(Armenian).(Syrian).(Chadean)…Ethiopian
+Roman…Bulgarian… Marionite… Malabarese…
…Greek… Malankarese…
… Italo-Albanian…
… Melkite…
… Romanian…
… Russian…
… Ruthenian…
…Serbian…
…+Ukrainian…

So, you see, Latin Rite Catholics and Roman Catholics are** not** interchangeable terms.
The Roman Catholics are only 1 of 17 different types of Catholics in the Universal Church and only 1 of 3 in the Latin Rite.
The main reason for the differences is the first line of the chart: The 12 Apostles. Remember they went by 2s to spread the Gospel. St Andrew with Titus introduced Christianity in Ukraine. Two Greeks, Cyril & Methodius, joined them. Because of the language barrier, Cyril & Methodius set the Greek alphabet to Ukrainian spoken words (that’s why we have Cyrillic alphabet). These are ALL Catholics. St Olga, queen of Ukraine, converted and influenced her son,St Vladimir,who also converted and in 988 baptized the Ukrainian nation. At that time Ukraine was called Rus and encompassed all the “Russias” the Carpathias, the Ruthenians and present day Russia.
In the Great Schism of 1066, the Orthodox broke away from the Catholics.
 
The Catholic Church does not refer to itself as the Roman Catholic Church. Roman Catholic is not used in any of the Catholic Church documents. The term came from the Anglican church who considered themselves to be Catholic. They called us Roman Catholics, and them Anglican Catholics. There is only one Catholic Church, and it aint the Anglican church…

Mike
You would think then over a course of 45 yrs they would update the printing companies printing their forms. A 1964 copy of my Certificate of Baptism says I was baptized according to the rite of the Roman Catholic Church. And a 2009 copy with other Sacraments noted says the same. Maybe they should read according to the Roman rite of the Catholic Church.
 
You would think then over a course of 45 yrs they would update the printing companies printing their forms. A 1964 copy of my Certificate of Baptism says I was baptized according to the rite of the Roman Catholic Church. And a 2009 copy with other Sacraments noted says the same. Maybe they should read according to the Roman rite of the Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church is a valid linguistic construct; it refers to the Roman Church Sui Iuris.
 
Since most words have more than one meaning it may be confusing when using the words Roman and rite.

We read in Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 8.2: “This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,…”

If you read New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal (Editor), James A. Coriden (Editor), Thomas J. Green (Editor), from 1985, you will see Roman used for both Church and rite:

“The Roman Catholic Church consists of twenty two sui iuris churches”. Also this source refers to the non-Roman rites of “the Latin Church *sui iuris, *which observes the Roman rite liturgy or a variation of it” (such as the Ambrosian rite of Milan). (p. 49)

Also mentioned are various definition of rite have been used in Church documents over the years, for example in the Canon Law 1983 CIC and 1990 CCEO, and that the terms are different between the two codes (p. 49) and that Eastern Churches sui iuris observe five liturgical rites: Alexandrian, Antiocene, Byzantine, Chaldean, Armenian.

So there are then a few definitions of rite:
  1. celebration of a sacrament or of a sacramental
  2. the way in which liturgy is celebrated
  3. patrimony, culture, and historical circumstances of a distinct people
  4. liturgical tradition observed by a church
 
I am still very confused. Here are some questions:
  1. Is there such an entity known as the “Roman Catholic Church?” To what does it refer?
  2. Is it correct to refer to the Universal Church as the “Roman Catholic Church?”
 
I am still very confused. Here are some questions:
  1. Is there such an entity known as the “Roman Catholic Church?” To what does it refer?
  2. Is it correct to refer to the Universal Church as the “Roman Catholic Church?”
  1. Yes: The Roman Church Sui Iuris, one of the 23 Churches Sui Iuris united under the Pope.
  2. No, not really, but it used to be, so you will encounter the usage.
 
I am still very confused. Here are some questions:
  1. Is there such an entity known as the “Roman Catholic Church?” To what does it refer?
The Latin/Roman Church continues to uses both names although their Code of Canon Law begins by saying
Can. 1 The canons of this Code regard only the Latin Church.
The Latin church which celebrates the Roman Rite, among other liturgical rites, as has been spoken to… although 99 % of Latin/Roman Catholics on CAF think if you say “Latin Church” you mean some parish that celebrates the EF of the Roman Rite.
  1. Is it correct to refer to the Universal Church as the “Roman Catholic Church?”
No. Most of us Eastern and Oriental Catholics do not appreciate being lumped into the so called Roman Catholic Church. We consider our selves in communion with Rome within the Catholic Church. The clergy in my parish and other EC clergy I’ve spoken with feel the same way.
 
I am still very confused. Here are some questions:
  1. Is there such an entity known as the “Roman Catholic Church?” To what does it refer?
  2. Is it correct to refer to the Universal Church as the “Roman Catholic Church?”
Hi Windfish,

Here is a very good article that explains how the Catholic Church got her name, and why sometimes it is called Roman Catholic, although the OFFICIAL name is “Catholic Church”

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm

blessings
 
Vico -
Great Chart… 👍

Do you have a link for where it came from and also, might I ask is there a similar chart for the EO?

Peace
James
I made it from research. I did make an EO chart, which is in my catholic forums album, with the 14 autocephalous Churches, but it does not include the six Oriental Orthodox Churches and Assyrian Church of the East.
 
I would like to state here that the Pope, although a Roman Catholic, is a Catholic Pope and not a “Roman Catholic Pope”. Although the Catholic Church is based in Rome he is the Pastor for the whole of the Catholic Church, both East and West. The Catholic Churches of the East *** are not*** part of the Roman Church but the Roman Church is a part of the Catholic Church.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
I would like to state here that the Pope, although a Roman Catholic, is a Catholic Pope and not a “Roman Catholic Pope”. Although the Catholic Church is based in Rome he is the Pastor for the whole of the Catholic Church, both East and West. The Catholic Churches of the East *** are not*** part of the Roman Church but the Roman Church is a part of the Catholic Church.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
Curious though, in the Divine Liturgy when we pray for the heads of the Church (Pope, Patriarch, Metropolitan, Eparch) why is the Pope referred to as “The Pope of Rome” instead of “Pope of the Church” or just “Pope” like in the OF Mass?
 
I have a few questions:
  1. What does it mean to be in union with the pope but not part of the Roman or Latin church?
  2. How can those in the Roman/Latin church not deviate one iota in liturgy as prescribed from Rome but other catholic churches in union with Rome have many liturgies?
  3. Why does it seem offensive to other catholics to be called Roman catholics?
  4. Why in the United States are there Roman bishops and other catholic bishops in the same area? It seems to me that if they are in union with Rome they would fall under the same bishop. I can understand the difference in the original countries from ancient times but here we are a modern country.
  5. Can I as a baptized Roman catholic join another catholic church without offending the Roman church? Or practically saying I prefer another church.
 
Unfortunately “Roman Catholic” sounds like an oxymoron. Catholic being Universal or “for all” as in " … go and teach all nations." When I say “I’m Catholic” I feel like its saying “I welcome all people to Jesus’ Church.”

I know. The teaching goes out from Rome (Vatican City). It’s where the Pope lives (currently).

When I hear the question “Are you Catholic or Christian?” my feelings are similar.
In that case I reply "A Christian is a person who follows Christ. A Catholic is a Christian who belongs to the Church Jesus founded for everyone (Catholic as in Universal). I’m both.

ROMAN would seem to mean loyal to the Pope and guided by the Church’s teaching office as well as scripture and tradition. But there is a bit of geographic separateness implied that seems a bit, well, less than Catholic. But, since people from Rome were present at Pentecost, Christian heroes Peter and Paul went there (and were martyred there), Paul’s letter praises the Roman church as renowned throughout the world (and among the Christians presumably) in his letter to the Romans. You can call me Roman Catholic.

In that the closest I’ve ever been to Rome is either Dublin, Ireland or slides from a Viewmaster; I have a slight preference for calling myself (just) Catholic. I suppose I am an “Irish Catholic” by ethnic descent, but again, “Catholic” is the unitive term and for purposes of answering Jesus’ prayer that we " … all may be one." it’s what I prefer.

Then again maybe I worry too much about a trivial matter. Eyes on Jesus. Love God with all our hearts, souls and minds; and our neighbors as ourselves … and let the Holy Spirit lead us to unity in Him.

I will never wear one of those helmets with the red brush on top. I do like Roman Meal bread though. Peace!
 
Unfortunately “Roman Catholic” sounds like an oxymoron. Catholic being Universal or “for all” as in " … go and teach all nations." When I say “I’m Catholic” I feel like its saying “I welcome all people to Jesus’ Church.”

I know. The teaching goes out from Rome (Vatican City). It’s where the Pope lives (currently).

When I hear the question “Are you Catholic or Christian?” my feelings are similar.
In that case I reply "A Christian is a person who follows Christ. A Catholic is a Christian who belongs to the Church Jesus founded for everyone (Catholic as in Universal). I’m both.

ROMAN would seem to mean loyal to the Pope and guided by the Church’s teaching office as well as scripture and tradition. But there is a bit of geographic separateness implied that seems a bit, well, less than Catholic. But, since people from Rome were present at Pentecost, Christian heroes Peter and Paul went there (and were martyred there), Paul’s letter praises the Roman church as renowned throughout the world (and among the Christians presumably) in his letter to the Romans. You can call me Roman Catholic.

In that the closest I’ve ever been to Rome is either Dublin, Ireland or slides from a Viewmaster; I have a slight preference for calling myself (just) Catholic. I suppose I am an “Irish Catholic” by ethnic descent, but again, “Catholic” is the unitive term and for purposes of answering Jesus’ prayer that we " … all may be one." it’s what I prefer.

Then again maybe I worry too much about a trivial matter. Eyes on Jesus. Love God with all our hearts, souls and minds; and our neighbors as ourselves … and let the Holy Spirit lead us to unity in Him.

I will never wear one of those helmets with the red brush on top. I do like Roman Meal bread though. Peace!
 
I have a few questions:
  1. What does it mean to be in union with the pope but not part of the Roman or Latin church?
To be in union with the Pope means you agree to everything the Pope (including the Magisterium) teaches. You accept all Catholic Doctrine, making yourself part of the Catholic Church.

The confusion here is that we see the Pope always as the head of the universal Church and at the same time head of the Roman Catholic Church. So people tend to think that the Roman Church is the enitrety of the Catholic Church. Those who are not part of the Roman Church are sui juris Church, or self-governing Churches. The Patriarch of each sui juris Church would run the particular Church the same way the Pope would run the Roman Church, but at the same time the Patriarch much always submit to the teachings of the Pope, so that all Churches are under one faith, one teaching.
  1. How can those in the Roman/Latin church not deviate one iota in liturgy as prescribed from Rome but other catholic churches in union with Rome have many liturgies?
Its the same way a sui juris Church adhering to the Byzantine Rite cannot have liturgies following the Roman Missal. Liturgies are diversified, owing to separate development through time and tradition in each Church.
  1. Why does it seem offensive to other catholics to be called Roman catholics?
Some find offense, some find compassion that others are not well educated about the diversity of their faith (if the other person is Catholic)
  1. Why in the United States are there Roman bishops and other catholic bishops in the same area? It seems to me that if they are in union with Rome they would fall under the same bishop. I can understand the difference in the original countries from ancient times but here we are a modern country.
Part of the responsibility of a local Ordinary is to regulate liturgy. You can’t expect a Roman Bishop regulating the Holy Qurbana or Divine Liturgy.
  1. Can I as a baptized Roman catholic join another catholic church without offending the Roman church? Or practically saying I prefer another church.
Yes. First, Canon Law is clear that as Catholics we can fulfill the Sunday Obligation by going to any Sunday Liturgy in any Catholic Rite. In the past 5 Sundays of October, I have fulfilled mine going to a Byzantine Divine Liturgy for 3 different Sundays. We also can seek Confession from any priest of our choice, including priests from another Catholic Rite.

Now, if you feel a particular affinity towards an Eastern Church, you can petition your bishop and theirs for a canonical transfer. This means your canonical membership is transfered and now you are subject to the disciplines and laws that govern that Eastern Church. I have a thread about Byzantine Fasting here and that is one such example. As a Roman Catholic I am not expected to follow the fasting calendar of the Ukrainians. But if I become a Ukrainian Catholic, then I follow their fasting calendar but not the Roman one. Not adhering to it is a sin of disobedience. Another is following which days are holidays of obligation. The Byzantine Rite has the 12 great feasts, and each Church would determine which if not all of these feasts are obligatory. The same with the Roman Church which Bishops can dispense or move holidays. But if you are a Ukrainian Catholic you are not expected to go to Liturgy for Immaculate Conception if it is a holiday of obligation in your country set by the Roman Bishops.

Also, as for offending, depends on what you will say in your petition. Some people have sought to become Eastern Catholics out of distate for the OF. That is offensive. But other reasons don’t have to be offensive and would be valid reasons to move to an Eastern Church. It could be that you just find better spirituality in that Church, or their style, discipline and traditions suit you better.

Also note that you can transfer Churches out of marriage. So if you marry a Chaldean, you can become Chaldean if you wish at the time of marriage.
 
To be in union with the Pope means you agree to everything the Pope (including the Magisterium) teaches. You accept all Catholic Doctrine, making yourself part of the Catholic Church.

The confusion here is that we see the Pope always as the head of the universal Church and at the same time head of the Roman Catholic Church. So people tend to think that the Roman Church is the enitrety of the Catholic Church. Those who are not part of the Roman Church are sui juris Church, or self-governing Churches. The Patriarch of each sui juris Church would run the particular Church the same way the Pope would run the Roman Church, but at the same time the Patriarch much always submit to the teachings of the Pope, so that all Churches are under one faith, one teaching.

Its the same way a sui juris Church adhering to the Byzantine Rite cannot have liturgies following the Roman Missal. Liturgies are diversified, owing to separate development through time and tradition in each Church.

Some find offense, some find compassion that others are not well educated about the diversity of their faith (if the other person is Catholic)

Part of the responsibility of a local Ordinary is to regulate liturgy. You can’t expect a Roman Bishop regulating the Holy Qurbana or Divine Liturgy.

Yes. First, Canon Law is clear that as Catholics we can fulfill the Sunday Obligation by going to any Sunday Liturgy in any Catholic Rite. In the past 5 Sundays of October, I have fulfilled mine going to a Byzantine Divine Liturgy for 3 different Sundays. We also can seek Confession from any priest of our choice, including priests from another Catholic Rite.

Now, if you feel a particular affinity towards an Eastern Church, you can petition your bishop and theirs for a canonical transfer. This means your canonical membership is transfered and now you are subject to the disciplines and laws that govern that Eastern Church. I have a thread about Byzantine Fasting here and that is one such example. As a Roman Catholic I am not expected to follow the fasting calendar of the Ukrainians. But if I become a Ukrainian Catholic, then I follow their fasting calendar but not the Roman one. Not adhering to it is a sin of disobedience. Another is following which days are holidays of obligation. The Byzantine Rite has the 12 great feasts, and each Church would determine which if not all of these feasts are obligatory. The same with the Roman Church which Bishops can dispense or move holidays. But if you are a Ukrainian Catholic you are not expected to go to Liturgy for Immaculate Conception if it is a holiday of obligation in your country set by the Roman Bishops.

Also, as for offending, depends on what you will say in your petition. Some people have sought to become Eastern Catholics out of distate for the OF. That is offensive. But other reasons don’t have to be offensive and would be valid reasons to move to an Eastern Church. It could be that you just find better spirituality in that Church, or their style, discipline and traditions suit you better.

Also note that you can transfer Churches out of marriage. So if you marry a Chaldean, you can become Chaldean if you wish at the time of marriage.
Thanks you did a good job of explaining but I still have a hard time understanding the self governing part. I imagine you are self governed because you are ancient churches founded by an apostle?

What teachings or category of teachings do you follow that may be different from Rome?

Liturgy is one area of difference what are some others?

If we are one, holy, apostolic, catholic church why would I have to apply for permission to be part of another catholic church?

Do other catholic priests marry or remain celibate as the Roman priests? If they marry, how can they be in union with the teaching of the pope?

I hope you understand I am seeking to understand and I am not confronting you. I am very ignorant on the sui juris churches as well as the orthodox church.
 
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