Roman Catholic or Catholic

[Bonifatius]

It seems that in secular and protestant states that Catholics are usually designated as “Roman Catholics”, while in Catholic states such as Austria we are designated as “Catholics”.
Is Roman Catholic really applicable to us? Because I believe that it just designates us as some random type of faith instead of what it really is, the fullness of the Christian Religion as established by the Apostles

 

[Fauken]

Is Roman Catholic really applicable to us?

Generally within Catholicism we’d be “Latin rite Catholics” to distinguish us from the Eastern rite Churches which all make up the Church, but Roman Catholicism began as a pejorative, if I’m not mistaken.

 

[Vico]

…

Catholic Encylopedia, Roman Catholic:

A qualification of the name Catholic commonly used in English-speaking countries by those unwilling to recognize the claims of the One True Church.
…
A study of these and other early examples in their context shows plainly enough that the qualification “Romish Catholic” or “Roman Catholic” was introduced by Protestant divines who highly resented the Roman claim to any monopoly of the term Catholic. In Germany, Luther had omitted the word Catholic from the Creed, but this was not the case in England. Even men of such Calvinistic leanings as Philpot (he was burned under Mary in 1555), and John Foxe the martyrologist, not to speak of churchmen like Newel and Fulke, insisted on the right of the Reformers to call themselves Catholics and professed to regard their own as the only true Catholic Church.
…
The term “Romish Catholic” or “Roman Catholic” undoubtedly originated with the Protestant divines who shared this feeling and who were unwilling to concede the name Catholic to their opponents without qualification.

Thurston, H. (1912). Roman Catholic. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm

 

[Jbrady]

but Roman Catholicism began as a pejorative, if I’m not mistaken.

You are. That is an urban myth started by some very poorly informed late nineteenth century English monsignor that would have long been forgotten if it had not made its way into the Catholic Encyclopedia, which would be published nearly a century later online and would become a mainstay for information on things Catholic today.

In fact, Popes have been referring to themselves as the head of the Roman Catholic Church in official letters to leaders of other Churches and religious groups since the thirteenth century, and still do. And it always means exclusively the whole Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, including all the particular churches, and never just the Latin Church.

A simple Google search of the Vatican website will yield numerous examples.

 

[Bonifatius]

Popes have been referring to themselves as the head of the Roman Catholic Church in official letters to leaders of other Churches and religious groups since the thirteenth century

Can you provide an example from the thirteenth century?

 

[MNathaniel]

That’s really interesting history, Vico! Thanks for sharing.

I’m curious to see how this thread unfolds, it’s not a topic I know anything about. Seems an interesting question.

(As a convert I oscillate back and forth between using ‘Catholic’ and ‘Roman Catholic’ interchangeably, but then again as a convert I began learning about Catholicism from outside a Catholic context. I’m curious to hear if there really is a reason to prefer one term over the other. And I can see the point about how adding the ‘Roman’ qualifier might seem to some to suggest there are other ways to be Catholic.)

 

[Jbrady]

Can you provide an example from the thirteenth century?

The first instance of the term was in a letter from one Pope to a Syrian Orthodox bishop during the time of the crusades. Long before any protestants entered the scene, There was a poster here who did a good deal of research on that topic. I’ll see if I can dig up those posts.

 

[Jbrady]

I did find a post of his that mentioned that the sender was none other than the most powerful pope in the history of the Church, Innocent III, in 1208. There was a post where he linked to the actual source.

Another poster found that the term was used as early as 778, in a letter from Pope Adrian to Charlemagne.

I did locate two posts that give plenty of links to Papal uses of the term on the Vatican site"

https://forums.catholic-questions.org/t/roman-church-roman-catholic-church-catholic-church-church/488068/22?u=jbrady

https://forums.catholic-questions.org/t/roman-church-roman-catholic-church-catholic-church-church/488068/23?u=jbrady

Also, the Baltimore Catechism uses the term as well.

 

[Jbrady]

Here you go from 1208. Not the letter to the Armenian bishop (not Syrian, my bad), but another letter by the same Pope Innocent III.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zX0l4NbQljU/VRLnzdgslUI/AAAAAAAAHiU/3djWlBf94k0/s1600/Scan+1.jpeg

 

[Vico]

That’s really interesting history, Vico! Thanks for sharing.

I’m curious to see how this thread unfolds, it’s not a topic I know anything about. Seems an interesting question.

(As a convert I oscillate back and forth between using ‘Catholic’ and ‘Roman Catholic’ interchangeably, but then again as a convert I began learning about Catholicism from outside a Catholic context. I’m curious to hear if there really is a reason to prefer one term over the other. And I can see the point about how adding the ‘Roman’ qualifier might seem to some to suggest there are other ways to be Catholic.)

It is used today however by Catholics and the Catholic Church; see especially the statements from the Roman Curia Pontifical Councils for Christian Unity. Example from 1976:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...hrstuni_doc_197609_authority-church-i_en.html

 

[MNathaniel]

Cheers folks, seems pretty established then.

So regardless of history (that may be debated) what I’m taking away from this unless corrected is that the terms really are interchangeable. And even that ‘Roman Catholic’ may be the current normal term to use in an ecumenical context.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I had never heard that the term Roman Catholic was supposedly a derogatory term until I joined this website. I never heard that anywhere else but here. And I’ve always doubted that there is much, if any, truth to it.

I seriously doubt that my grandparents and all family of mine, and the pastors of all their parishes would have used a pejorative term to describe their faith.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

You are.

Nonetheless, there are plenty of Protestants that do use the phrase (or just the adjective Roman) in a pejorative manner.

 

[Jbrady]

Nonetheless, there are plenty of Protestants that do use the phrase (or just the adjective Roman ) in a pejorative manner.

Doubt that many of them do not also use the bare term “Catholic” in exactly the same way.

 

[commenter]

seriously doubt that my grandparents and all family of mine, and the pastors of all their parishes would have used a pejorative term to describe their faith

Unless a term that originally had pejorative intent, lost that intent. The term continued because it was in common use.

I think others used the term Roman, because some Eastern Orthodox used the term Catholic. So did Old Catholics, and PNCC. So the qualifier is used where it is needed, but some places it’s not needed.

 

[JerryZ]

Roman is an adjective that was added back during the reformation as a pejorative.
In time we embraced it. If someone thinks we will feel vilified by it they will be mistaken.
In my parish the reader at the beginning of mass says “We welcome all to our Lady**** Roman Catholic church” and it is also in the website.
So as you see we do not worry about such small matters.
Of course “technically” as others pointed out we are “the Latin rite of the Catholic Church”.

Peace!

 

[brown_bear]

Not even in Italy we want to be called Roman Catholics, I just don’t understand what the rest of the world finds there

I’m kidding, of course.

As a matter of fact, however, if in Italy one presents himself as a Roman Catholic, in 99% of cases it means that he is a super traditionalist who aims to depose Pope Francis and renounce the Second Vatican Council.

So if you come to Italy my advice is to avoid saying that you are Roman Catholics.

It’s counterintuitive but that’s it

 

[Bernoulli]

The attribute Roman is used in the text of the First Vatican Council. For example: “I acknowledge the holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman church, the mother and mistress of all the churches”, or “I, Pius, bishop of the catholic church, with firm faith believe and profess each and every article contained in the profession of faith which the holy Roman church uses”, or “The holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman church believes and acknowledges that there is one true and living God”.

In some of the cases the term could refer specifically to the Church of Rome, in some cases it means the whole Catholic Church.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s fine to call yourself just “Catholic”. Technically the Church has two “lungs”, one is called “Eastern Catholic” and the other is called “Western Catholic”, “Latin Catholic”, or sometimes “Roman Catholic”.

While “Roman Catholic” might have originated as a derogatory term, in the USA there are plenty of Catholics who are just fine with that term. I think historically a lot of US Latin Catholics embraced the term as a way of taking pride in their religion when Protestants would sneer at Rome this and Romish that. News outlets like the Associated Press use the term “Roman Catholic” and “Roman Catholic Church” in USA and nobody complains or bats an eye. Some Catholic churches also have it right on their building, Facebook page, address listing etc, as “St. Ann Roman Catholic Church” or “St. Ann’s, a Roman Catholic Church”. This is actually really helpful in areas where there may be several Catholic churches, including ones that are not in communion with Rome, such as “St. Mary’s Polish Catholic Church” or “St. Ann’s Anglo-Catholic Church”. Maybe you don’t have that problem in Austria.

I think a lot of US Catholics would be confused by the term “Western Catholic” since many parts of US don’t have a strong Eastern Catholic presence. And since the Mass hasn’t been in Latin for 50 years now, “Latin Catholic” doesn’t make much sense to people.

I don’t have any idea what connotations such terms might carry in Austria.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Nonetheless, there are plenty of Protestants that do use the phrase (or just the adjective Roman ) in a pejorative manner.

And if one did I’d be the first one to say, “That’s right. I’m a ROMAN Catholic. I follow the Church of ROME. You got a problem with that? If so, then it’s your problem, not mine.”

Besides, Rome is awesome. I love visiting Rome, it’s beautiful, great food, etc. It’s not like I have to go around calling myself a Possum Holler Catholic or something embarrassing like that.