Roman Catholic --> Orthodox --> Eastern Catholic?

[5Loaves]

You should talk to the Eastern Catholic priest of the parish you want, because there may be an established procedure. My pastor has people wait two years before transfer.

In areas where there are overlapping eparchies a letter goes to the Latin bishop of your proper diocese, and to the eparch of the diocese that you want to join. I think there are some older threads with posts on this forum with examples.

There are older threads concerning this topic of transfer, and it does seem there clearly are differences in how people are advised, and how people have done it. I was told by local eastern canonists that the letter goes to the bishop of the ECC you wish to transfer to and that he may, or may not, require a letter from your EC pastor.

I agree that the place to begin is talking with your EC priest. Would that they all were familiar with how the process works. That isn’t the case. (For this reason I decided to check first with the EC canon lawyers to see what they said needed to happen.)

Okay. Because I’m an immigrant and all my records are in another country, so I’m just wondering.

I believe you need a recent copy of your baptismal record if you were baptized Catholic or recent copy of your Confirmation record if you were Baptized Christian and later received into the Catholic Church. So if that record is in another country, and you indicate it is, then you may wish to get cracking on obtaining that record if you’re thinking of making your request to transfer any time soon.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I believe you need a recent copy of your baptismal record if you were baptized Catholic or recent copy of your Confirmation record if you were Baptized Christian and later received into the Catholic Church. So if that record is in another country, and you indicate it is, then you may wish to get cracking on obtaining that record if you’re thinking of making your request to transfer any time soon.

Thanks! I’m not applying anytime soon, I just started going to DL. But this is good advice, I’m visiting home soon and perhaps I should get copies of my Sacramental records.

 

[5Loaves]

5Loaves;7179291:

And as such it’s important that this be noted correctly in the baptismal register in the Latin Church, if the Holy Mysteries do take place there. (Actually it would be the father’s church that would be the one the child is inscribed into, if he is EC, even if the mom is Latin Catholic.)

Ought that baby also have been Chrismated as well, and received first Holy Eucharist, if the Byz tradition they are from does this (not all do)?

No, not if it is not done in that tradition.

I am just such a case. I was born in a town with no Byzantine Church. The bishop told my parents’ to have me baptized at the local Roman Church. If we were practicing Catholics I am sure this would have been fixed when we moved to a city with a Byzantine Church but alas, we were not and it was not fixed until I fully entered the Church in 2000.

Br David, I’m unclear which part your “No, not if it is not done in that tradition.” is referring to. What isn’t done, and which tradition? No, the record wouldn’t reflect that the baby is an EC of whatever EC Church the parent/s is/are, even though the baptism occurred in a Latin Church, or no, the baby would not be chrismated at the baptism. The chrismation part does vary. The recording as an EC part should always occur, even though it might not always occur because of the Latin parish being unfamiliar with the need to record it thusly.
As you said

This is important to note. An infant baptized in the Roman Catholic Church but whose parents are Byzantine Catholic, the child is also Byzantine Catholic.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Br David, I’m unclear which part your “No, not if it is not done in that tradition.” is referring to. What isn’t done, and which tradition? No, the record wouldn’t reflect that the baby is an EC of whatever EC Church the parent/s is/are, even though the baptism occurred in a Latin Church, or no, the baby would not be chrismated at the baptism. The chrismation part does vary. The recording as an EC part should always occur, even though it might not always occur because of the Latin parish being unfamiliar with the need to record it thusly.
As you said

I am speaking of Chrismation and Frist Eucharist, also it will not necessarily note in the baptismal register either.

At least that was in my case back in the sixties.

 

[5Loaves]

Thanks! I’m not applying anytime soon, I just started going to DL. But this is good advice, I’m visiting home soon and perhaps I should get copies of my Sacramental records.

I highly recommend getting a copy of the records while you are there visiting, and then keeping that where you can find it later. If the time comes later that you do decide to request a change I believe you will then need to get a recent copy.

My personal experience in trying to get copies has made me caution our RCIA folks to get and keep copies of their records. It helps for date and for location of the sacraments (surprisingly people do actually forget where the baby was baptized ) The first copy of my own record had my mother’s maiden name spelled wrong so I had to get another copy with it spelled correctly— it was spelled correctly in the church record, just copied wrong by the volunteer making the copy for me, and, no record at all of my daughter in the parish where her sacraments took place. I eventually found it recorded in the records of the mission for the Deaf whose priest celebrated the sacraments for her, and then had them send a copy to the parish where the sacraments took place, as the canon law office said should be done.

In case you run in to any snags in the future having a copy now may be very helpful.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I highly recommend getting a copy of the records while you are there visiting, and then keeping that where you can find it later. If the time comes later that you do decide to request a change I believe you will then need to get a recent copy.

My personal experience in trying to get copies has made me caution our RCIA folks to get and keep copies of their records. It helps for date and for location of the sacraments (surprisingly people do actually forget where the baby was baptized ) The first copy of my own record had my mother’s maiden name spelled wrong so I had to get another copy with it spelled correctly— it was spelled correctly in the church record, just copied wrong by the volunteer making the copy for me, and, no record at all of my daughter in the parish where it her sacraments took place. I eventually found it recorded in the records of mission for the Deaf whose priest celebrated the sacraments for her, and then had them send a copy to the parish where the sacraments took place, as the canon law office said should be done.

In case you run in to any snags in the future having a copy now may be very helpful.

My mom has the origial copies kept at home. She’s very good with record keeping, you should see her old-school filing cabinets at home. I think you can trace every bill she ever paid for in her entire life

Although I do not have sacramental records for my marriage since I left the Philippines soon after the wedding. I think in the Philippines every record is kept separate. I know I have a separate Baptismal certificate and a Confirmation certificate. Although I know which parishes I was baptized and confirmed in.

By the way, is it just baptism and confirmation?

 

[Vico]

Okay. Because I’m an immigrant and all my records are in another country, so I’m just wondering.

That is ok, the proper parish and ordinary is determined by your domicile (5 years residence or intention of permanence) or semi-domicile (intention to stay, or actually staying, at least 3 months). I think they will want to update your records so need the name of the parish you were baptised in.

You are in Ukrainian Eparchy of New Westminster which overlaps with the Archdiocese of Vancouver, so you are probably have to contact The Most Rev. J. Michael Miller, CSB (Latin) and The Most Rev. Ken Nowakowski (Ukrainian) for transfer.

Can. 102 §1 Domicile is acquired by residence in the territory of a parish, or at least of a diocese, which is either linked to the intention of remaining there permanently if nothing should occasion its withdrawal, or in fact protracted for a full five years.
§2 Quasi-domicile is acquired by residence in the territory of a parish, or at least of a diocese, which is either linked to the intention of remaining there for three months if nothing should occasion its withdrawal, or in fact protracted for three months.
§3 Domicile or quasi-domicile in the territory of a parish is called parochial; in the territory of a diocese, even if not in a parish, it is called diocesan.

…

Can. 105 §1 A minor necessarily retains the domicile or quasi-domicile of the person to whose authority the minor is subject. A minor who is no longer an infant can acquire a quasi-domicile of his or her own and, if lawfully emancipated in accordance with the civil law, a domicile also.

Can. 106 Domicile or quasi-domicile is lost by departure from the place with the intention of not returning, without prejudice to the provisions of can. 105.

Can. 107 §1 Both through domicile and through quasi-domicile everyone acquires his or her own parish priest and Ordinary.
§2 The proper parish priest or Ordinary of a vagus is the parish priest or Ordinary of the place where the vagus is actually residing.
§3 The proper parish priest of one who has only a diocesan domicile or quasi-domicile is the parish priest of the place where that person is actually residing.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_PB.HTM

 

[Aramis]

I am speaking of Chrismation and Frist Eucharist, also it will not necessarily note in the baptismal register either.

At least that was in my case back in the sixties.

The rules were changed in the 80’s. Children of EC’s baptized in Roman parishes are supposed to be fully initiated, not just baptized. So said two canon lawyer priests of my acquaintance. It does, however, require the Roman Rite pastor to get faculties for the confirmation from the bishop, unless the pastor is already biritual. Many pastors don’t realize this, and not a few are only vaguely aware of the ECC’s at all.

CCEO Canon 683:
Baptism must be be celebrated according the liturgical prescriptions of the Church sui iuris in which according to the norm of law the person to be baptized is to be enrolled.
…]
Canon 692

It is necessary that those who are baptized be chrismated with holy myron, that by a seal they be signed with the gift of the Holy Spirit and be made more proper witnesses and co-builders in the Kingdom of Christ.

…]
Canon 694

According to the tradition of the Eastern Churches, chrismation with holy myron is administered by a presbyter either in conjunction with baptism or separately.

Canon 695

1. Chrismation with holy myron must be administered in conjunction with baptism, except in a case of true necessity, in which case, however, it is to be seen that it is administered as soon as possible.
2. If the celebration of chrismation with holy myron is not done together with baptism, the minister is obliged to notify the pastor of the place where the baptism was administered.

Canon 696

1. All presbyters of the Eastern Churches can validly administer this sacrament [chrismation] either along with baptism or separately to all the Christian faithful of any Church sui iuris including the Latin Church.
2. The Christian faithful of Eastern Churches validly receive this sacrament also from presbyters of the Latin Church, according to the faculties with which these are endowed.
3. Any presbyter licitly administers this sacrament only to the Christian faithful of his own Church sui iuris; when it is a case of Christian faithful of other Churches sui iuris, he lawfully acts if they are his subjects, or those whom he lawfully baptizes in virtue of another title, or those who are in danger of death, and always with due regard for the agreements entered between the Churches sui iuris in this matter.

Canon 697

Sacramental initiation in the mystery of salvation is perfected in the reception of the Divine Eucharist, and thus the Divine Eucharist is administered after baptism and chrismation with holy myron as soon as possible according to the norms of the particular law of the each Church sui iuris.

It’s pretty clear.

 

[5Loaves]

Although I do not have sacramental records for my marriage since I left the Philippines soon after the wedding. I think in the Philippines every record is kept separate. I know I have a separate Baptismal certificate and a Confirmation certificate. Although I know which parishes I was baptized and confirmed in.

By the way, is it just baptism and confirmation?

Vico, please correct me, I don’t know why it would be different in the Philippines. Your confirmation and your marriage, both sacraments, would be recorded on the baptismal record in the parish where your baptism took place. When you were married, if it was in the Church and apparently it was, then you needed to produce a recent copy of your baptismal record to the parish where the marriage was to take place. That parish would then notify the parish (where your baptism took place), of your marriage having taken place, so the parish where you were baptized could note the marriage in your baptismal record.

We’re really off topic here…

 

[5Loaves]

The rules were changed in the 80’s. Children of EC’s baptized in Roman parishes are supposed to be fully initiated, not just baptized. So said two canon lawyer priests of my acquaintance. It does, however, require the Roman Rite pastor to get faculties for the confirmation from the bishop, unless the pastor is already biritual. Many pastors don’t realize this, and not a few are only vaguely aware of the ECC’s at all.

Thank you for all you included in that post.

I am very grateful that the priest in the Latin parish where I assist in the RCIA has the position that anything that comes up concerning ECs/OCs he goes straight to the chancery because it’s “all too complicated” and he’s afraid he wouldn’t get it right. We can’t fault our Latin priests for being unfamiliar with us but we can expect them to know we exist and to know that they need to get proper advise for pastoring us for such things as the holy mysteries, IMHO.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Vico, please correct me, I don’t know why it would be different in the Philippines. Your confirmation and your marriage, both sacraments, would be recorded on the baptismal record in the parish where your baptism took place. When you were married, if it was in the Church and apparently it was, then you needed to produce a recent copy of your baptismal record to the parish where the marriage was to take place. That parish would then notify the parish (where your baptism took place), of your marriage having taken place, so the parish where you were baptized could note the marriage in your baptismal record.

Its different because I think we’re just not that good at record keeping. Really, it takes weeks, if not months to get records from the government. Its not that much different with the parishes there. Especially that I was Baptized in the 70s. A good example here is that my wife still has her maiden name on her passport even though she got it two months after we were married. The record would go from the parish to the local registry office to the national registry. If the national registry cannot produce a certificate, then the passport office won’t let you change your name. So she ended up getting a passport with her maiden name.

Also, parish registrations is an unheard of concept in the Philippines.

We’re really off topic here…

I’m the thread starter so I say we’re not

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The rules were changed in the 80’s. Children of EC’s baptized in Roman parishes are supposed to be fully initiated, not just baptized. So said two canon lawyer priests of my acquaintance. It does, however, require the Roman Rite pastor to get faculties for the confirmation from the bishop, unless the pastor is already biritual. Many pastors don’t realize this, and not a few are only vaguely aware of the ECC’s at all.

Thanks, I was only going by my experience which, I admit, is a bit dated.

Also, when speaking of original copies, a lot of times that means they want it directly from the praish. Like an original copy of school transcripts.

For my application to the Carmelites I had to have the parish send a copy to the Carmelites. They would not accept a copy from me.

 

[Vico]

Vico, please correct me, I don’t know why it would be different in the Philippines. Your confirmation and your marriage, both sacraments, would be recorded on the baptismal record in the parish where your baptism took place. When you were married, if it was in the Church and apparently it was, then you needed to produce a recent copy of your baptismal record to the parish where the marriage was to take place. That parish would then notify the parish (where your baptism took place), of your marriage having taken place, so the parish where you were baptized could note the marriage in your baptismal record.

We’re really off topic here…

I think it is common to not properly update the baptisimal record. I know mine does not show my confirmation which was in a group by the bishop at the Cathedral, not at my baptism parish.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think it is common to not properly update the baptisimal record. I know mine does not show my confirmation which was in a group by the bishop at the Cathedral, not at my baptism parish.

This is my experience also, I had to have a letter sent from the parish where I was confirmed.

 

[5Loaves]

I think it is common to not properly update the baptisimal record. I know mine does not show my confirmation which was in a group by the bishop at the Cathedral, not at my baptism parish.

Yes. I meant what *ought *to happen. As my own story said, it doesn’t always go as it should. That is why I do encourage our candidates and catecheumens to get and keep copies of the records of their sacraments and encouraged ConstantineTG to go ahead and get what he can when he is home visiting.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think it is common to not properly update the baptisimal record. I know mine does not show my confirmation which was in a group by the bishop at the Cathedral, not at my baptism parish.

Every sacrament I received is in a different parish, and none of them is my home parish

The Philippines have many, many churches and a lot of them very beautiful and full of history and significance. People tend to celebrate their one-time sacraments (Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, even Funerals which is not a Sacrament but definitely a one-time thing) at these popular churches.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Dear Sir,

I understand that Recusant Catholics in Britain would have called themselves “English Catholics.” Is this correct?

Alex

Dear Alex

I couldn’t possibly know as I wasn’t around!

Yes, I do think that’s what some of them chose to be called.

Matt

 

[ConstantineTG]

A slight deviation from my OP, what if its RC → Protestant → EC? If the returning Catholic chose to return to an EC, would they still have to apply for canonical transfer? Even if they’ve been away for decades?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Alex

I couldn’t possibly know as I wasn’t around!

Yes, I do think that’s what some of them chose to be called.

Matt

It’s a good thing neither of us were around in those days . . . I especially couldn’t bear the thought of hanging, drawing and quartering . . . And with a surname like mine, Cromwell’s men would have come after me first!

I remember visiting the monastery near Tyburn in London. Loved the 24/7 Eucharistic Adoration the Sisters do there. There was a replica of the Tree of Tyburn gallows on the lower floor with an altar underneath it - quite dramatic and awesome.

The Rev. Sister then showed us a relic of St Thomas More’s hat and a piece of a white silk shirt, ensanguined by the blood of a martyr (“a man of means”). She pointed out the high quality of the shirt and said, “He wore his very best shirt the day he was going to die - after all, he was going to heaven . . .”

May the Holy Martyrs of Britain and Ireland pray for us! May the Martyrs Robert Aske and his companions of the Pilgrimage of Grace pray for us!

Alex

 

[Matthew_Holford]

A slight deviation from my OP, what if its RC → Protestant → EC? If the returning Catholic chose to return to an EC, would they still have to apply for canonical transfer? Even if they’ve been away for decades?

Disclaimer: I’m not a canon lawyer.

I would suspect from some similar threads I’ve seen on this forum that if RC and went to Protestant, the RC would still consider you as an RC and the RC would be your ritual church. If you reverted I therefore think you’d have to come back to RC. Which would mean that if you wanted to become EC you’d have to apply for a canonical transfer. If you did I suspect they’d want to know why all this toing and froing.