Roman Catholic response to "born again"?

[NotWorthy]

reen12:

If I take the definition of a sacrament to be:

“An outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace”

then what I am questioning is the theological construct

‘sacrament’ - as well as Catholic theology concerning

‘grace.’

Are you saying you are questioning sanctifying graces vs. actual graces, and where in the world did we catholics dream this up?

If you read non-Catholic Christian theology, the
concept of grace itself is seen much differently.
Trying to defend against Non-Catholic Christian concept(s) of Grace is sort of like trying to hit a moving target. There are so many (often subtle) differences in various Protestant Doctrines, it makes it a little trying a times.

reen12:

Got to go make lunch.

reen

So… how was lunch?

Notworthy

 

[reen12]

quote: NotWorthy

Trying to defend against Non-Catholic Christian concept(s) of Grace is sort of like trying to hit a moving target. There are so many (often subtle) differences in various Protestant Doctrines, it makes it a little trying a times.

Well, I won’t give you an argument on that!

quote: NotWorthy

So… how was lunch?

Dandy. [baloney and cheese…ummmm]

As to grace, and - indirectly - ‘born again’

Christmas is a week away - I’m in the midst of back therapy,

Mom has advanced Altzheimer’s and this is the first

Christmas with my brother a widower [his wife was only 59].

The fact that Christmas 2005 seems more like Good Friday,

provides an apt ‘definition’ - Grace is what get’s us through.

Theologians of any denomination can define it as they will.

[Perhaps those with a penchant for ‘defining’ grace have

the mindset: How does He love us, Let me count the ways…]

newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

What grace ‘is’ -how it is ‘dispensed’ [who comes* up

with these mechanistic terms???] - grace is Amazing.

Those who say: I am born again are witnessing just how

amazing grace is.

cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/m/amazgrac.htm

The fact that many Catholics don’t use the “form”:

“I am born again” is immaterial to the fact that they are so.

As to grace, unbidden, as I watch my elderly mother’s

mind and body failing

cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/b/abidewme.htm

this…this is the grace of God, through the mercy of Jesus,

however defined.

Listening and praying with/through these hymns, is God

‘dispensing’ grace to me - as I am assured that He is

with her in His grace.

This may not be the “schoolmen’s” definition,

but I believe it to be God’s ‘definition.’

“I am with you all days…” in My grace.

Best,

reen

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, sadly, the mechanisms of faith, those highly detailed explanations, often get in the way of my faith. I tend to tune you guys out when you spend six paragraphs to explain a simple (ok, I know it’s more complex) topic. A case in point would be the thread on John Chapter 6 and Eucharist. I lost track after post 200 or so.

IMHO, the Catholic Church herself has kept these teachings as simple as possible, and had to reach deeper to explain them only after heresies developed.

On another thread, I gave my “Bucket O’ Graces” analogy. I don’t need to get too much deeper than that to get a good idea of what Graces mean.

Notworthy:

I like to think of it in simple terms, for I’m a simple guy. When I was baptized, God gave me a wonderful gift - A Bucket chock full of Grace. When I commit a venial sin, I punch a small hole in that bucket, and my Grace leaks out. When I commit a Mortal Sin, I knock the bottom out of my bucket. The Sacrament of Penance plugs up the holes and fills my bucket up again. The Mass, my good works, my prayers, all help to put more grace in my bucket.

Now, when I die, I’m going to give that bucket back to God. If it’s full, guess what? I’m heaven bound, praise the Lord! If that bucket is full of holes, and empty, well, you know…

Notworthy

 

[reen12]

quote: NotWorthy

IMHO, the Catholic Church herself has kept these teachings as simple as possible, and had to reach deeper to explain them only after heresies developed.

Yes, I think you’re right on this.

As to “Bucket O’ Graces”…I think the Church ought
to make you a theologian!

quote: NotWorthy

When I commit a Mortal Sin, I knock the bottom out of my bucket.

quote: NotWorthy

A case in point would be the thread on John Chapter 6 and Eucharist. I lost track after post 200 or so.

You mean you actually* read* 200 posts!

God bless you richly, NotWorthy.

reen

 

[Ahimsa]

NotWorthy:

IMHO, the Catholic Church herself has kept these teachings as simple as possible, and had to reach deeper to explain them only after heresies developed.

So the heretics ruined it for the rest of us.:crying:

 

[reen12]

quote: Ahimsa

So the heretics ruined it for the rest of us.:crying:

Just read the Scriptures, and you’ll feel better…

reen

 

[NotWorthy]

reen12:

You mean you actually* read* 200 posts!

I was actually wondering how far it would go before someone responded with “Oh yeah?.. Well, so’s your mother!”

Sadly, I haven’t seen it, yet!

Notworthy

 

[reen12]

quote: NotWorthy

I was actually wondering how far it would go before someone responded with “Oh yeah?.. Well, so’s your mother!”

Sadly, I haven’t seen it, yet!

reen

 

[MariaG]

reen12:

quote: NotWorthy

Providing a scriptural basis for the CC sacramental system?

Sure, if you like.

There may be a person, following this thread,

who would like to know the scriptures that the

sacramental system is based on.

For myself, I’d like to know which Church writings

advanced the concept of a sacrament that dispenses

grace.

Thanks,

reen

John 20:21 -23. If that is not Scriptural example of a Sacrament dispensing Grace, I don’t know what is. My favorite one too!

If I take the definition of a sacrament to be:

“An outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace”

And while God does give us grace through the sacraments, He is not bound to ONLY use the sacraments.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[reen12]

Hi, Maria,

Most impressive, in terms of “outward sign.”

John: 20: 21-23
usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm

I waited - counting to 20 - for a person - knowledgeable
in the faith - to say:

quote: Maria

And while God does give us grace through the sacraments, He is not bound to ONLY use the sacraments.

Do you know where the 'language" came from:
‘dispensing’ grace? *

Thanks,

reen12**

 

[MariaG]

reen12:

Hi, Maria,

Most impressive, in terms of “outward sign.”

John: 20: 21-23
usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john20.htm

I waited - counting to 20 - for a person - knowledgeable
in the faith - to say:

quote: Maria
Do you know where the 'language" came from:
‘dispensing’ grace? *

Thanks,

reen12**

I have no idea. I actually don’t really like the term. Reminds me too much of a candy Pez Dispenser

As for being a heretic, I actually believe you will eventually come full circle on this. You just needed to get “back to the basics” and were unable to do it in the Catholic Church. Eventually, I fully expect to see you come home again. But this time stronger and more sure of your faith in Christ and in His Church.

I know that once you truly get into Scripture, really, the Catholic Church is the only one that takes it all into account. I know it was through an Evangelical Church and Scripture alone that I came to the Catholic Church

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[reen12]

quote: MariaG

As for being a heretic, I actually believe you will eventually come full circle on this. You just needed to get “back to the basics” and were unable to do it in the Catholic Church. Eventually, I fully expect to see you come home again. But this time stronger and more sure of your faith in Christ and in His Church.

…come full circle on this.

It may end up that way, Maria. I just don’t know.
Still, “come full circle” is quite an insight, and I
thank you for it.

quote: MariaG

You just needed to get “back to the basics” and were unable to do it in the Catholic Church.

Perhaps it’s the way the basics are “stated” - that
gets me looney!

I sense a profound appreciation of grace, out here in
the realm of non-Catholic Chrisitanity. An emphasis
on how we are saved by Christ…it’s an almost
startling experience - to come upon people who have
an almost stark appreciation of same. It doesn’t
seem to be at all a matter of ignoring that actions
must take place, in obedience to the clear commands
of Christ…but in no way are these actions seen as
“helping” our own “salvation.” Total reliance on Christ.

So, I feel torn. The CC has a deep love and acceptance
of the Real Presence…and I don’t see how in the world
this can be seen as a ‘symbol.’

But I read Trent and say: “Are they kidding???”
Didn’t they* read* St. Paul???

The “solution” may be: give assent to what I can give
assent to, and trust God, for the rest.
And Holy Mother Church can “anathamatize” me
til’ the cows come home…still, I will trust in Christ
and the plain words of Scripture. “Take and eat…”
“Go baptize…” “Do this, in rememberance of Me…”

I think that none of the Churches has the whole truth…
[the day I accept “infallibilty,” they’ll be snow…
on the Equator.]

Together, the various Churches seem to
mirror Christ and the gospel…like a diamond,
with many facets. “…not prevail against the
Church” *may *end up meaning: separate the
wheat, from the chaff, in *each *Church, and
somehow, the Holy Spirit guides us all, toward
the heavenly Jerusalem.

Catholics can say: Yes, I am born again.
The thing about non-Catholic Christians…which
seems to puzzle some Catholics, from what I can see,
is that, for them, it’s a “live” reality…in the sense
that they praise God, heartily, for this radical
reality…He *saved *me. There seems to be an
acute awareness of same.

Oh, well…

reen12

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hello everyone, Doesn’t it bother anyone that the church everyone is defending burnt people at the stake for translating the word of god in their own tongue?

Would god’s church, its people, his children…really do that?

Or does it sound like something Satan would want? For people not to have the bible in their own tongue?

Just a question…being raised up catholic I struggled with this.

 

[NotWorthy]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello everyone, Doesn’t it bother anyone that the church everyone is defending burnt people at the stake for translating the word of god in their own tongue?

Would god’s church, its people, his children…really do that?

Or does it sound like something Satan would want? For people not to have the bible in their own tongue?

Just a question…being raised up catholic I struggled with this.

Malachi, are you referring the the Wycliffe/Tyndale debacle?

Notworthy

 

[reen12]

Hello, malachi_a_serva,

If a given Church fails to hold with water baptism and
the Lord’s Supper, I would not be a member of same.

If there is a discussion of either- in the webpages you
provided links to- would you please tell me, so I can
aquaint myself with these positions?

As to the sinfulactions of churchmen in the past,
these individuals were members of the Church…
not “the Church.” I wouldn’t *dream of trying to “defend”
their actions. [Though these actions sure puts
“infallibility” in a less than advantageous light.]

Christ said: Go, baptize
Christ said: Take and eat… Do this in memory of Me.

I could drop in from another planet! and understand
what Christ clearly commanded, in this regard…regardless
of how baptism or the Eucharist is viewed, by any
given Church.

So, again, if there is a discussion of either- in the webpages you
provided links to- would you please tell me, so I can
aquaint myself with these positions?

Best regards,

reen12

 

[reen12]

quote: NotWorthy

…Wycliffe/Tyndale debacle?

You got me on this one, NotWorthy! :tiphat:
[OK, I’ve reworked this post.] So it was Wycliffe,
who was dug up from his grave, and his ashes
scattered into a river…

How charming…

“debacle” is right.

Best,

reen12

 

[NotWorthy]

Wycliffe who translated the bible into the English vernacular, but tended to embellish it a little to accomodate his somewhat biased views of our Mother Church.

After repeated attempts to get him to stop abusing the Holy Word, he was put to death by fire (I believe). This is often an attack against the Catholic Church. The way I understand, it was the Anglican Church that turned Mr. Wycliffe over to the English authorities who proceeded to burn him.

I think if our friend Malachi_a_serva had spent as much time reading what the Catholic Church teaches as he’s spent reading from anti-catholics where the Church has gone wrong, he might have a better view of us.

Notworthy

 

[MariaG]

reen12:

I sense a profound appreciation of grace, out here in
the realm of non-Catholic Chrisitanity. An emphasis
on how we are saved by Christ…it’s an almost
startling experience - to come upon people who have
an almost stark appreciation of same. It doesn’t
seem to be at all a matter of ignoring that actions
must take place, in obedience to the clear commands
of Christ…but in no way are these actions seen as
“helping” our own “salvation.” Total reliance on Christ.

I am so glad you have found your way to a total reliance on Christ. That is how He wishes it.

I pray that you will someday come to see that the sacraments are really not in any way done to help our own salvation, but to just make Christ visible and increase our faith in Christ.

So, I feel torn. The CC has a deep love and acceptance
of the Real Presence…and I don’t see how in the world
this can be seen as a ‘symbol.’

Funny thing, Although technically a revert, my parents stopped going to Church when I was four. I had a brief period of about 6 months where we started attending again, but no parochial schooling at all.

One day in an Evangelical Church, I sat in my pew with tears streaming down my face because I realized I could not recieve communion because they only thought it was a symbol.

Bible alone with the conviction of the Holy Spirit and I still get to the Real Presence of Christ.

The “solution” may be: give assent to what I can give
assent to, and trust God, for the rest.
And Holy Mother Church can “anathamatize” me
til’ the cows come home…still, I will trust in Christ
and the plain words of Scripture. “Take and eat…”
“Go baptize…” “Do this, in rememberance of Me…”

And as you are sincerely seeking, I believe at this point, it is enough.

I think that none of the Churches has the whole truth…
[the day I accept “infallibilty,” they’ll be snow…
on the Equator.]

Wow, I can’t wait to see that! Snow at the equator

Catholics can say: Yes, I am born again.

Amen! I am a born again, bible thumping, church going, Jesus freak, Catholic Christian.

The thing about non-Catholic Christians…which
seems to puzzle some Catholics, from what I can see,
is that, for them, it’s a “live” reality…in the sense
that they praise God, heartily, for this radical
reality…He *saved *me. There seems to be an
acute awareness of same.

Yes, evangelical Christians seem to just praise God with every breath. They thank Him and recognize Him in every aspect of thier lives and can see Him in the small as well as the large. There is no such thing as coincidence, only Godincidence!

Funny thing, once I knew the Holy Spirit was telling me to go back to the Catholic Church, (not that I was ever really there to begin with), I thought I was going to help Catholics get really saved. I found that though it is expressed much differently, there is that same thankfulness and recognition of God in all the little things in life as well as the big, I found many “truly saved” Catholic Christians.

There is just also another group who don’t “walk the walk” but still go to church, at least occassionally. The “cultural” Catholics. In the evangelical crowd, those people just stop going and so there seems to be a greater concentration of wheat.

Keep seeking. Build your faith in Him. Eventually, His Real Presence will bring you home when you are ready:yup: Ready to see all the “extras” in the Catholic Church aren’t meant to "help our own salvation, but help us keep our eyes on Christ.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[reen12]

Hi, NotWorthy,

Apparently, it was Wycliffe’s bones that were dug up, burned - and the ashes thrown into a river - 41 years after his death…at the order of Bishop Fleming, in 1428, with the approval of Pope Martin V. cf. papal Bull *Inter Cunctas *].

[It’s a verrryyy complicated tale…]

For a non-Catholic view of Wycliffe:

williamtyndale.com/0johnwycliffefoxe.htm

I can certainly see why the Wycliffe “adventures” are
‘presented’ to modern Catholics for…uh…“review.” :ehh:

Oh, my sainted aunt! What will people think of next!

Best,

reen

 

[NotWorthy]

reen12:

Hi, NotWorthy,

Apparently, it was Wycliffe’s bones that were dug up, burned - and the ashes thrown into a river - 41 years after his death…at the order of Bishop Fleming, in 1428, with the approval of Pope Martin V. cf. papal Bull *Inter Cunctas *].

[It’s a verrryyy complicated tale…]

For a non-Catholic view of Wycliffe:

williamtyndale.com/0johnwycliffefoxe.htm

I can certainly see why the Wycliffe “adventures” are
‘presented’ to modern Catholics for…uh…“review.” :ehh:

Oh, my sainted aunt! What will people think of next!

Best,

reen

Please tell me you’re not looking to John Foxe to give an un-biased history on Religious “Issues” in early England. Yes, I understand some of my reference material can be considered “Catholic leaning”, but it tends to stand up to historical review. John Foxe’s historical accuracy has tended to be found a little lacking.

Notworthy