Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox Canon

[opheliart]

I’ve always found it ironic that the same arguments that Roman Catholics use against Protestants because they “butcher the Bible”, can also be used by Eastern Orthodox Christians against said Roman Catholics

I’m not used to these forums. Please forgive my inadequacies in this method of communicating thoughts. I was searching for info on the Book of Tobit and found your desire for further insight into this amazing piece of work. I believe it was a series of posts dating back to January 2009. Are you still interested in this? I may have further insight. As for my position in the Faith … I consider myself of the Apostolic Faith, aligned with the Eastern Orthodox in many areas.

In Christ

 

[Bible_Reader]

To be clear, excerpts from three of the deuterocanonical books were found at Qumran: Sirach, Tobit and Baruch.

This is true, but there are many apocryphal works also found at Qumran, such as the Genesis Apocryphon. It is also interesting to note that our most complete versions of the Hebrew Ben Sira come not from the DSS but from the Cairo Genizah.

 

[konkelin]

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[Dave_Noonan]

This is true, but there are many apocryphal works also found at Qumran, such as the Genesis Apocryphon. It is also interesting to note that our most complete versions of the Hebrew Ben Sira come not from the DSS but from the Cairo Genizah.

Sure. I was just responding to a statement implying that excerpts from ALL the deuterocanonical books had been found at Qumran, which is not the case.

 

[Evan]

I believe the council of Trent, in listing the books, said that these were the books acceptable to the Church through it’s history. Never had it produced any official lists which lacked these books.

It did not state anything on other books, no condemnation, no delclaration of errors in other books.

The Church was saying, AT LEAST this list of books are inerrant. If there are more, the council did not want to say.

I also believe all orthodox and eastern Churches accept ALL the books in the Catholic Bible.

 

[Vouthon]

So is the Canon not actually “closed” as concerns those books accepted by the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox canons?

So the Council of Trent only confirmed that the books of the Catholic Canon are AT LEAST FULLY DIVINELY INSPIRED, but did not actually “close” the canon?

This would essentially mean that the Catholic canon books are the BARE MINIMUM as concerns DIVINE SCRIPTURE. They’re may be more inspired books but there cannot be less?

 

[jmj1984]

The issue is that the Council of Trent would have been fully aware of the divergence between the Canons of the Orthodox church and that of the Catholic Church and yet chose not to include them in the canon. That said the Vulgate does include them in an appendix ‘lest they should perish entirely’ according to Pope Clement VIII so they must have some value or why does it matter if they perish?

 

[Vouthon]

The issue is that the Council of Trent would have been fully aware of the divergence between the Canons of the Orthodox church and that of the Catholic Church and yet chose not to include them in the canon. That said the Vulgate does include them in an appendix ‘lest they should perish entirely’ according to Pope Clement VIII so they must have some value or why does it matter if they perish?

But is this to be read as “condemnation” or a denial of their inspiration?

The Council of Trent was a reaction to the Protestant rejection of the deuterocanonicals vis-a-vis the canon. It was not a statement on the Canon held by Orthodox Churches, was it? If the Protestant Reformation had never happened then Trent would never have happened and we would have no clear dogmatic definition on what constitutes scripture.

That’s why I’m beginning to think that Trent merely confirmed that the Catholic Canon is 100% Divine Scripture. I’m not certain though that it defintively defined ALL scripture and closed the canon. Perhaps when the Catholic/Orthodox re-unite - I pray for that day - their books might be accepted at least for Eastern Churches themselves to use. Who knows.

I just don’t think that we can say anything with certainity regarding books used by other Churches like we can with clearly heretical Gnostic works, for example.

The “closing of the canon” is a firm but not rigid principle in the Orthodox Church because the classic Christian tradition never dogmatized the exact number of scriptural books and always valued many other writings and liturgical texts in addition to the canonical collection of the Scriptures. (T. Stylianopouulos, The NT: An Orthodox Perspective, p. 28)

It is my understanding that the canon is not closed for the Eastern Orthodox but it is set.

 

[jmj1984]

But is this to be read as “condemnation” or a denial of their inspiration?

The Council of Trent was a reaction to the Protestant rejection of the deuterocanonicals vis-a-vis the canon. It was not a statement on the Canon held by Orthodox Churches, was it? If the Protestant Reformation had never happened then Trent would never have happened and we would have no clear dogmatic definition on what constitutes scripture.

That’s why I’m beginning to think that Trent merely confirmed that the Catholic Canon is 100% Divine Scripture. I’m not certain though that it defintively defined ALL scripture and closed the canon. Perhaps when the Catholic/Orthodox re-unite - I pray for that day - their books might be accepted at least for Eastern Churches themselves to use. Who knows.

I just don’t think that we can say anything with certainity regarding books used by other Churches like we can with clearly heretical Gnostic works, for example.

The “closing of the canon” is a firm but not rigid principle in the Orthodox Church because the classic Christian tradition never dogmatized the exact number of scriptural books and always valued many other writings and liturgical texts in addition to the canonical collection of the Scriptures. (T. Stylianopouulos, The NT: An Orthodox Perspective, p. 28)

One of the issues is that the Catholic Church hasn’t referred to books such as 2 esdras and 3 and 4 Maccabee’s for a thousand or so years, so its highly unlikely the Church would ever accept them.

Another is that 2 Esdras appears to teach the doctrine of soul sleep in several sections and thus could never be accepted as canonical by The Church.

 

[Vouthon]

One of the issues is that the Catholic Church hasn’t referred to books such as 2 esdras and 3 and 4 Maccabee’s for a thousand or so years, so its highly unlikely the Church would ever accept them.

Another is that 2 Esdras appears to teach the doctrine of soul sleep in several sections and thus could never be accepted as canonical by The Church.

Ah but the question is: Would it compel or ask the Orthodox Church to remove them?

I think not, personally. We have differences in theology and apparently that never prevented us from being united for a thousand years, so I don’t see why slight differences in the canon would either, given that the Church has never actually said anything regarding those books, acceptance or condemnation.

 

[jmj1984]

Ah but the question is: Would it compel or ask the Orthodox Church to remove them?

I think not, personally. We have differences in theology and apparently that never prevented us from being united for a thousand years, so I don’t see why slight differences in the canon would either, given that the Church has never actually said anything regarding those books, acceptance or condemnation.

I guess we’ll see when or if the Orthodox Church returns to The Church, I suspect a thorough analysis of the texts would have to be made to ensure that they contained no doctrines contrary to Church teaching. And as I said before I suspect that 2 Esdras would fail that test.

 

[inkaneer]

Oddly enough, in reviewing the canons of the fourth session of the Council of Trent which dealt with the scriptures it occurs to me that it is more remarkable as to what the Council did not say than what it did say. It did not say, for instance, "These and only these books are considered inspired. Instead we find written in the cannons this:

“And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one’s mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament:…” There then follows a listing of the OT and NT books.

Also Trent calls the Vulgate and the books contained therein as:

“authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.”

It then says:

“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

I guess it depends on how one looks at it but to me the language seems to be pointed at the protestant having less books rather than the Orthodox having more. The council of Trent was an answer to protestantism not the Orthodox schism. The council of Florence dealt with the Orthodox schism but it addressed each individual Orthodox Rite and is not considered an ecumenical council in its entirety. So I guess the argument can be made that the question of whether the Christian Bible canon was officially closed at Trent has really not been addressed. Interesting to say the least.

 

[Vouthon]

Oddly enough, in reviewing the canons of the fourth session of the Council of Trent which dealt with the scriptures it occurs to me that it is more remarkable as to what the Council did not say than what it did say. It did not say, for instance, "These and only these books are considered inspired. Instead we find written in the cannons this:

“And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one’s mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament:…” There then follows a listing of the OT and NT books.

Also Trent calls the Vulgate and the books contained therein as:

“authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.”

It then says:

“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

I guess it depends on how one looks at it but to me the language seems to be pointed at the protestant having less books rather than the Orthodox having more. The council of Trent was an answer to protestantism not the Orthodox schism. The council of Florence dealt with the Orthodox schism but it addressed each individual Orthodox Rite and is not considered an ecumenical council in its entirety. So I guess the argument can be made that the question of whether the Christian Bible canon was officially closed at Trent has really not been addressed. Interesting to say the least.

I agree

 

[Vouthon]

As a note of interest, the “Eternal Rest” Prayer of the Requiem mass (“Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord and let perpetual light shine upon them” etc.) is derived from 2 Esdras (4 Ezra), and I believe that Pope Leo might have once quoted from this book in an encyclical.

I do not believe that Eastern Orthodox accept 2 Esdras, however Ethiopian Orthodox do.

The Ethiopian Orthodox canon is the one that intrigues me most.

 

[garysibio]

As a note of interest, the “Eternal Rest” Prayer of the Requiem mass (“Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord and let perpetual light shine upon them” etc.) is derived from 2 Esdras (4 Ezra), and I believe that Pope Leo might have once quoted from this book in an encyclical.

I do not believe that Eastern Orthodox accept 2 Esdras, however Ethiopian Orthodox do.

The Ethiopian Orthodox canon is the one that intrigues me most.

You can quote something without considering it canonical. That’s why using quotations by the early Church Fathers to prove they considered a particular work to be canonical is a lame argument.

 

[Vouthon]

You can quote something without considering it canonical. That’s why using quotations by the early Church Fathers to prove they considered a particular work to be canonical is a lame argument.

I agree 100%! St Paul often quoted pagan authors without their works being considered canon. I meant it only as an interesting historical tidbit

 

[Vouthon]

I just this day bought “The Orthodox Study Bible”, as well as the NRSV Cambridge Edition with Apochrypha, and I must say, I am very impressed with 1 Esdras (called 1 Ezra in Orthodox Bibles), 3 and 4 Maccabees, the Prayer of Mannaseh, Psalm 151 and even 2 Esrdas.

I can well understand why the Orthodox Church considers 1 Esdras, particularly, as scripture, and why it was put in an appendix to the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate in the Catholic Church. Its a fascinating read.

There is a part about women that I think is spot. I dare any men to deny the truth of this!

To all you men out there - BE WARNED! The strength of women, they rule over us according to 1 Esdras

"…Then the third, who had spoken of women and truth (and this was Zerubbabel), began to speak: ‘Gentlemen, is not the king great, and are not men many, and is not wine strong? Who is it, then, that rules them, or has the mastery over them? Is it not women? Women gave birth to the king and to every people that rules over sea and land. From women they came; and women brought up the very men who plant the vineyards from which comes wine. Women make men’s clothes; they bring men glory; men cannot exist without women. If men gather gold and silver or any other beautiful thing, and then see a woman lovely in appearance and beauty, they let all those things go, and gape at her, and with open mouths stare at her, and all prefer her to gold or silver or any other beautiful thing. A man leaves his own father, who brought him up, and his own country, and clings to his wife. With his wife he ends his days, with no thought of his father or his mother or his country. Therefore you must realize that women rule over you!

‘Do you not labour and toil, and bring everything and give it to women? A man takes his sword, and goes out to travel and rob and steal and to sail the sea and rivers; he faces lions, and he walks in darkness, and when he steals and robs and plunders, he brings it back to the woman he loves. A man loves his wife more than his father or his mother. Many men have lost their minds because of women, and have become slaves because of them. Many have perished, or stumbled, or sinned because of women. And now do you not believe me?

‘Is not the king great in his power? Do not all lands fear to touch him? Yet I have seen him with Apame, the king’s concubine, the daughter of the illustrious Bartacus; she would sit at the king’s right hand and take the crown from the king’s head and put it on her own, and slap the king with her left hand. At this the king would gaze at her with mouth agape. If she smiles at him, he laughs; if she loses her temper with him, he flatters her, so that she may be reconciled to him. Gentlemen, why are not women strong, since they do such things?’

Then the king and the nobles looked at one another; and he began to speak about truth: ‘Gentlemen, are not women strong?.."

• (1 Esdras 4:13-34)

Come on guys, you know its true…ahem…

 

[Jacob50]

The list of the books listed as canonical by the Catholic Church was known as the “Damasine List” named after the Decree of Pope Damasus. The “Damasine list”, issued by Pope Damasus I at the council, is as follows:​

“It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins:

Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book;Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books [First and Second Books of Kings, Third and Fourth Books of Kings]; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book;”

“Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book.”

“Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.”

“Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians [First Epistle to the Corinthians and Second Epistle to the Corinthians], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians [First Epistle to the Thessalonians and Second Epistle to the Thessalonians], one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy [First Epistle to Timothy and Second Epistle to Timothy], one to Titus, one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.”

“Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.”

“Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles [First Epistle of Peter and Second Epistle of Peter]; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles [Second Epistle of John and Third Epistle of John]; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.”

Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).
-Council of Rome​

The Damasine Decree lists 27 books for the New testament (these same books which are found in all Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant bibles). For the Old testament the decree lists 46 books from the Septuagint (excluding 3,4 Maccabees, 151 psalm, the prayer of manasseh and 1 Esdra.) The books on this list make up the Roman Catholic Bible. This exact list is confirmed at the following councils: Hippo 393 AD, Carthage 397 AD, Carthage 419 AD, Florence 1442, and Trent 1546.

 

[Jacob50]

“[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books .……………” (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

• Council of Hippo

“[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . . . . . . . .” (Canon 47 [A.D. 397]).
-Council of Carthage III

“A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the things of which you desired to be informed verbally: of Moses, five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Joshua, of Judges, one book, of Kings, four books, and also Ruth, of the prophets, sixteen books, of Solomon, five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job, one book, of Tobit, one book, Esther, one, Judith, one, of the Maccabees, two, of Esdras, two, Paralipomenon, two books . . . . . . . .” (Letters 7 [A.D. 408]).
-Pope Innocent I