Roman Catholic wanting to explore Byzantine Catholicism

[TheCatholicWife]

Hello there. I converted to the Roman Catholic Church 3 years ago and my husband is cradle RC. Over time, however, we have been craving a sense of orthodoxy and conservatism that we are simply not finding in our parishes (and we live in a large city and have attended six different parishes in the 18 months we’ve been here.) There is one Byzantine Catholic church here in town and we both feel compelled to experience Mass here. Is there any tips/pointers you can give me? I know that Eastern rites do the sign of the cross differently, do not genuflect (I can’t do that anyway thanks to several knee surgeries so I’ve always bowed instead of genuflected). I know that communion is received on the tongue. Will I notice an extreme difference in the Mass as compared to the Roman rite?

We are honestly becoming increasingly dissatisfied with our church to the point that we haven’t attended Mass in several weeks. My husband is adamant that we remain Catholic but doesn’t want to attend Mass at any of the churches in the area but IS open to exploring this Byzantine church. I’m a former United Methodist but now that I’ve found the truth that is the Catholic Church, I can’t leave it for Protestantism ever again. I’m trying to build my faith up again and am increasing my prayer life because I have honestly felt myself pulling away from the Lord of late. Will I find a welcoming community within the Byzantine rite since I’m coming from the Roman rite?

Sorry if this is rambling but we’re experiencing definite faith struggles and I am truly seeking answers.

Thank you!

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

There are a great number of differences between the Roman Mass and the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. From a birds-eye view they look about the same (i.e. Liturgy of the Word followed by Liturgy of the Faithful/Eucharist), but once you get down into it they look and feel very different. There is tons of bowing, making the Sign of the Cross any time a phrase hints of the Trinity (or glory or mercy), processions, incense, etc. Also, you don’t say “Amen” for Communion otherwise the Eucharist will fall on the floor (plus you have no option for kneeling, Communion must be received standing). The best thing you can do is simply to go and experience it. If you’re going to a Ruthenian (usually labeled “Byzantine Catholic”) Church I recommend that you not bother trying to follow along in the green pew book. The first few times I went I tried to follow along with that book and simply got confused. It’s best to listen to and try to learn the responses (this is actually pretty easy because everything is repeated multiple times), as well as watching what others do.

What I don’t encourage joining a Byzantine parish simply because you don’t like what’s going on in your own parish. While Eastern Catholics are fully Catholic and in communion with the Bishop of Rome, we have our own theology, discipline, spirituality, etc (we are not Roman Catholics who celebrate Mass funny). If you’re going to attend a Byzantine parish regularly, and possibly become parishioners there, I would encourage you also to study Byzantine/Orthodox theology and spirituality so that you might fully adopt Byzantine Christianity as your own. This is also completely in line with what Vatican II and the popes since then have been saying even if you decide to remain at your Roman Catholic parish. The Bishops of Rome have been encouraging Roman Catholics to be illumined by the light of the East for a long time now. Come, experience our Liturgies and learn about us. We are very welcoming to visitors.

 

[5Loaves]

…There is one Byzantine Catholic church here in town and we both feel compelled to experience Mass here. Is there any tips/pointers you can give me? I know that Eastern rites do the sign of the cross differently, do not genuflect (I can’t do that anyway thanks to several knee surgeries so I’ve always bowed instead of genuflected). I know that communion is received on the tongue. Will I notice an extreme difference in the Mass as compared to the Roman rite? …

Welcome to CAF and to the Eastern Catholicism section!

I’m sorry for the struggles you and your husband are experiencing with local parishes. That is a complicated topic which many people have brought to CAF. You might poke around and look for some similar posts to read.

His Holiness John Paul II of blessed memory wrote in his Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen

Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church,** the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each**.

So all Catholics were exhorted by the Holy Father to become familiar with our Eastern Churches. This is of course a wonderful time as we enter the Truduum, Pascha/Easter, and the Easter season, to join in the celebrations in a Byzantine Church. You mention that you know of one near you. The Eastern & Oriental Catholic Directory is a site where you can also look for other Byzantine parishes.

The Divine Liturgy is indeed quite different from the Roman Rite in many ways. You don’t mention which kind of Byzantine Church that is you are considering visiting. Some people have found this article helpful: 12 Things I Wish I’d Known…First Visit to an Orthodox Church." Although it references visiting Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox church without taking the time to reread it I’d say 1-11 are useful.

For some basic background on the Byzantine way many of us like very much the interviews with the abbot and several monks from Holy Resurrection Romanian Catholic Monastery on “Your Word from the Wise” interviews . If you click on the “…more info” link it will bring up all the questions Catherine asks in each video section.

Regarding the struggles you are having, I would strongly encourage you and your husband to seek out a qualified spiritual father/spiritual director to help you with this difficult part of your journey. If you approach your chancery office with the concerns you have they may be able to suggest some local spiritual directors appropriate to your needs.

I sincerely hope that during the Holy Truduum you will avail yourselves of as many opportunities for worship as you can. My prayers are with you.

(Many of us will be in Church much of the time from now until Pascha so don’t be discouraged if you don’t hear from many Eastern Catholics in the next few days.)

 

[Allyson]

Hello TheCatholicWife,

I am a cradle RC who translated rites in '06, so I can say a little bit about what to expect as an “outsider.” I first went to a Byzantine Liturgy as a student at Penn State — this was not a parish; however, I can say that the priest was thrilled to have a few Roman bodies adding to the attendance.

While in graduate school I attended a small parish nearby that was very welcoming to students. I look forward to returning there when I return to school in the fall.

I go to a parish where I am now, that while different, is also full of friendly people.

Sometimes - I hear - you may find a parish that is described as “insular.” I have not had that experience. People may not jump up and down to greet you and invade your space the moment they first see you, they will however - in my experience be open an friendly as they see you more often. Do not be afraid to introduce yourself to a curious face.

A note on communion, as Phillip Rolfes said, DO NOT say Amen. You will be receiving communion from a spoon, so DO NOT put your tongue out as is done in the Latin Rite. Open wide and keep the tongue down. Do this, and communion will go smoothly. You might even call ahead and speak with and maybe even see the priest before liturgy so that he knows your name for communion, or after if you are planning to wait on communion until you go to a second Divine Liturgy. He does not need to know your name, but all the priests I have met like to know it for communion when possible.

I hope that you take the step to experience the Divine Liturgy soon. If you go for Easter, it will be a little different from the usual liturgy, so be sure to return to see what we normally do.

I also need to second the comment on the green books now used in Ruthenian Churches, they are hard to use!!! Ask around the parish to see if anyone has the old blue books around. The translation is not that different and you will be better able to follow along. These where in use when I started going. Luckily I had memorized all the basic parts before they made the switch to the green books. I say that they are great for the choir, but I do not need to do all that page flipping.:whacky:

God Bless,

Rosemary

 

[Allyson]

The best thing you can do is simply to go and experience it. If you’re going to a Ruthenian (usually labeled “Byzantine Catholic”) Church I recommend that you not bother trying to follow along in the green pew book. The first few times I went I tried to follow along with that book and simply got confused. It’s best to listen to and try to learn the responses (this is actually pretty easy because everything is repeated multiple times), as well as watching what others do.

an FYI in case you are interested: If you haven’t already, try and see if anyone as saved one of the old book which are small and blue. They are a lot easier to follow along in.

Some parishes are still using them…ssshhhh

God Bless!

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

an FYI in case you are interested: If you haven’t already, try and see if anyone as saved one of the old book which are small and blue. They are a lot easier to follow along in.

Some parishes are still using them…ssshhhh

God Bless!

I’m a Melkite Greek (Byzantine) Catholic. We haven’t been subordinated to the “teal terror” as I’ve heard others call it. My parish has a few little booklets at the entry-way of the church, but no one really uses them. I would like to see one of the old blue books for the Ruthenians. I’ve only ever heard one Ruthenian speak highly of the new books, everyone else seems to want to go back to the old ones. I’d be curious to look at an old one and note the differences.

Where are you doing your graduate work? And in what? I’m currently doing graduate work with Franciscan (albeit via distance).

 

[Patchunky]

an FYI in case you are interested: If you haven’t already, try and see if anyone as saved one of the old book which are small and blue. They are a lot easier to follow along in.

Some parishes are still using them…ssshhhh

God Bless!

A lot of parishes are still using them:thumbsup:

And the old books for Great Thursday, Great Friday, Resurrection Matins:thumbsup:

Not to mention singing BY DEATH HE CONQUERED DEATH AND TO THOSE IN GRAVES…

 

[babochka]

Our cantor can’t seem to remember which to use. He goes back and forth between graves and tombs with no pattern whatsoever. That’s what they get for changing things that people have had memorized their whole lives!

 

[Allyson]

I’m a Melkite Greek (Byzantine) Catholic. We haven’t been subordinated to the “teal terror” as I’ve heard others call it. My parish has a few little booklets at the entry-way of the church, but no one really uses them. I would like to see one of the old blue books for the Ruthenians. I’ve only ever heard one Ruthenian speak highly of the new books, everyone else seems to want to go back to the old ones. I’d be curious to look at an old one and note the differences.

Where are you doing your graduate work? And in what? I’m currently doing graduate work with Franciscan (albeit via distance).

“Teal Terror” I like it. Over all, the translation is not horrible - i have a few bones to pick but… Most of it was not necessary, a few changes made are good, and the book is ridiculously hard to use. I remember that the parishioner’s at my old parish got the books and were grumbling about all the pages with all the forms of the chant. It’s great for the choir, but not necessary in the pews. It is not complicated chant.

I’ll PM you about schools

A lot of parishes are still using them:thumbsup:

And the old books for Great Thursday, Great Friday, Resurrection Matins:thumbsup:

Not to mention singing BY DEATH HE CONQUERED DEATH AND TO THOSE IN GRAVES…

Every time I visit my old parish, they are still using them. I get so confused anymore between tombs and graves if I am going back and forth during the Easter season.

 

[babochka]

One last reply before I sign off for the remainder of Holy Week…

I’m so sorry you’re struggling in your current situation. Please don’t let that keep you away from Mass. No matter what, it is still the Mass. The bread and wine still become the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior. Let nothing keep you from that reality.

I think you will most certainly be welcomed if you visit a Byzantine Catholic Church. My own church is small and we are always excited to have visitors. I urge to to attend, immerse yourself in the Liturgy and experience it for its own sake. It is similar to a Mass in many ways, and of course has the same purpose as the Mass. I grew up with both and just took the similarities and differences in stride. My husband had never heard of the Eastern Churches until he met me. He tells me that it took him almost a year of monthly attendance at an Eastern Church to really appreciate it. We now attend the Byzantine Church full-time and he wouldn’t have it any other way.

Where do you live? Please let us know after you visit. Come back with any questions you might have.

Elizabeth

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

It’s great for the choir, but not necessary in the pews. It is not complicated chant.

Forgive the correction, but is it not traditional for the Ruthenians to have no choir, but rather congregational chanting? Furthermore, there should not be any pews for the books to be “in.” Isn’t this correct?

 

[Hesychios]

Forgive the correction, but is it not traditional for the Ruthenians to have no choir, but rather congregational chanting? Furthermore, there should not be any pews for the books to be “in.” Isn’t this correct?

Most of the Ruthenian Catholic parishes (with a very few notable exceptions) have pews. It is very hard to find one without them.

One trend I have noticed in the BCC, ACROD and the OCA is that many parishes that were originally founded as Ruthenian eventually want a choir to sing the great Russian (and Bulgarian as well as others) hymns. Once that happens the congregation may lose it’s ‘voice’.

Prostopinije is endangered everywhere, some people want to save it and encourage it but the tide is against them. It sometimes works out that a temple can have both a good choir and continue to plainchant well. My old BCC parish alternated Sundays for the choir, I think that worked fine for them.

 

[scapularkid8]

Hello there. I converted to the Roman Catholic Church 3 years ago and my husband is cradle RC. Over time, however, we have been craving a sense of orthodoxy and conservatism that we are simply not finding in our parishes (and we live in a large city and have attended six different parishes in the 18 months we’ve been here.) There is one Byzantine Catholic church here in town and we both feel compelled to experience Mass here. Is there any tips/pointers you can give me? I know that Eastern rites do the sign of the cross differently, do not genuflect (I can’t do that anyway thanks to several knee surgeries so I’ve always bowed instead of genuflected). I know that communion is received on the tongue. Will I notice an extreme difference in the Mass as compared to the Roman rite?

We are honestly becoming increasingly dissatisfied with our church to the point that we haven’t attended Mass in several weeks. My husband is adamant that we remain Catholic but doesn’t want to attend Mass at any of the churches in the area but IS open to exploring this Byzantine church. I’m a former United Methodist but now that I’ve found the truth that is the Catholic Church, I can’t leave it for Protestantism ever again. I’m trying to build my faith up again and am increasing my prayer life because I have honestly felt myself pulling away from the Lord of late. Will I find a welcoming community within the Byzantine rite since I’m coming from the Roman rite?

Sorry if this is rambling but we’re experiencing definite faith struggles and I am truly seeking answers.

Thank you!

Thoughts I have for you as a fellow Roman:

I politely recommend reconsidering your motivations for looking into worshiping as a Byzantine. ‘Running’ from something because of dissatisfaction into another arena isn’t really fair to the community you’re landing in I don’t think. Orthodoxy is not about liberalism or conservatism, it’s about the Spirit. Jesus came to be among and save sinners “of which I am the first” (St. Ephraim!), so I think it’s not about the crowd around you, it’s about the message. There are situations that are difficult though so I am not advising you not to look into Byzantine worship…I’m just saying please consider your motivations

Anyway, to answer your main question. Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes. You will notice a complete difference in Roman and Byzantine worship before you even walk into the church. When you walk in you can just find a seat. Tell someone around you that you’re Latin and might need some guidance and they’ll immediately know what to tell you. Byzantines are very friendly toward the ignorance of us Latins They can also tell pretty quickly if you’re Latin because you won’t be crossing yourself the right way or making metanoias in front of the icons.

The Divine Liturgy (what we call a Mass) will begin like a surprise basically. The deacon will come out with incense, twirl it around a while and then come back out and ask the priest to give the blessing. This is the beginning and everyone will stand. Just do what they do. The first DL you go to, you will not know what is going on. Don’t try to follow it because Byzantines don’t really use missals like we do anyway. Just take it all in and involve yourself in the prayer without knowing the words.

It really is quite an experience, and after this you will be able to understand why the Russians converted to Orthodoxy because upon seeing it they thought “we didn’t know if we were in heaven or on earth”.

Also something to know:
Do not be surprised if people are walking around, going in and out, doing their own thing in front of an icon DURING the Deacon’s and Priest’s prayers or Scripture readings. This seems rude to Latins but this is how churches run in Byzantine worship. It’s more of a ‘temple’ structure and less of an ‘orderly church’ format.

 

[Hesychios]

Thoughts I have for you as a fellow Roman:

I politely recommend reconsidering your motivations for looking into worshiping as a Byzantine. ‘Running’ from something because of dissatisfaction into another arena isn’t really fair to the community you’re landing in I don’t think. Orthodoxy is not about liberalism or conservatism, it’s about the Spirit. Jesus came to be among and save sinners “of which I am the first” (St. Ephraim!), so I think it’s not about the crowd around you, it’s about the message. There are situations that are difficult though so I am not advising you not to look into Byzantine worship…I’m just saying please consider your motivations

Anyway, to answer your main question. Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes. You will notice a complete difference in Roman and Byzantine worship before you even walk into the church. When you walk in you can just find a seat. Tell someone around you that you’re Latin and might need some guidance and they’ll immediately know what to tell you. Byzantines are very friendly toward the ignorance of us Latins They can also tell pretty quickly if you’re Latin because you won’t be crossing yourself the right way or making metanoias in front of the icons.

The Divine Liturgy (what we call a Mass) will begin like a surprise basically. The deacon will come out with incense, twirl it around a while and then come back out and ask the priest to give the blessing. This is the beginning and everyone will stand. Just do what they do. The first DL you go to, you will not know what is going on. Don’t try to follow it because Byzantines don’t really use missals like we do anyway. Just take it all in and involve yourself in the prayer without knowing the words.

It really is quite an experience, and after this you will be able to understand why the Russians converted to Orthodoxy because upon seeing it they thought “we didn’t know if we were in heaven or on earth”.

Also something to know:
Do not be surprised if people are walking around, going in and out, doing their own thing in front of an icon DURING the Deacon’s and Priest’s prayers or Scripture readings. This seems rude to Latins but this is how churches run in Byzantine worship. It’s more of a ‘temple’ structure and less of an ‘orderly church’ format.

I read this post and frankly thought to myself “my, how nicely put!”, all of it.

It is what I would have wanted to write, but you did.

 

[Patchunky]

Forgive the correction, but is it not traditional for the Ruthenians to have no choir, but rather congregational chanting? Furthermore, there should not be any pews for the books to be “in.” Isn’t this correct?

You are correct that it is traditional for Ruthenians to have no choir. All the singing is congregational. The only time you found a choir was in the Seminary. Villagers had too many other things in their lives to have a choir and choir practice.

Choirs were started in the parishes once they came to America and began to copy the Latins and the Orthodox.

Pews are another issue altogether.

A great deal of the time, it depended on where in the “Old Country” your church happened to be located. Parishes that were in what is today Eastern Slovakia, Northern Hungary, Southeastern Poland tended to have pews. They seemed to more access to “funds” to have the pews put into the church. Those parishes in what is today Western Ukraine, tended not to have pews unless they were located in the larger villages and towns.

Hope this helps…

marko

 

[Allyson]

Forgive the correction, but is it not traditional for the Ruthenians to have no choir, but rather congregational chanting? Furthermore, there should not be any pews for the books to be “in.” Isn’t this correct?

I may be a translator to the East, but I do at least know about these traditions.

Perhaps I should explain and rephrase what I thought was an obvious distinction - between those person or persons leading the congregational chanting and the congregation itself. It was a critique of the new books, which only come in one form, not an explanation of actual Ruthenian traditions.

I was not suggesting choirs singing polyphonies, but rather that, unless I am the person leading the singing - the cantor - I do not need the lines of music to follow along with the words. The old books used by the general congragation had only the words, and that was enough for me. I can read music, but the new books are cumbersome to use because all the music makes you flip the pages more.

Hence the distinction between the “choir” and the “pews.” I was speaking with a somewhat figurative analogy (for there is a reality behind it). However, while it may be traditional to not have pews, the parish I go to does have pews; and while we do not sing polyphonies, the cantor is not alone in leading the congregation. There are a few people who are with him that you might as well call a choir. One gentleman often sings the communion hymn while the cantor is going to communion. Of course, the congregation does sing…a lot.

A good cantor is better any day than a book that is hard to follow because they print out every possible variation of the chant.

God Bless,
R.

 

[Aramis]

Only one of the Ruthenian parishes I’ve been to did not have a choir… but all the choirs were singing the cantor and the congregation’s parts, leading the congregation in the liturgy.

Typically, tho, they are small.

And the books are cumbersome because of all the notation, but by the same token, the notation is the only way to have anything resembling standardization. The particular melodies and word-fits may give some fits, but the idea is sound… for the cantors.

The variety of options, however, coupled with full notation, makes for a big, thick, heavy and uncomfortable book with lots of page-skips.

 

[Allyson]

Only one of the Ruthenian parishes I’ve been to did not have a choir… but all the choirs were singing the cantor and the congregation’s parts, leading the congregation in the liturgy.

Typically, tho, they are small.

And the books are cumbersome because of all the notation, but by the same token, the notation is the only way to have anything resembling standardization. The particular melodies and word-fits may give some fits, but the idea is sound… for the cantors.

The variety of options, however, coupled with full notation, makes for a big, thick, heavy and uncomfortable book with lots of page-skips.

Yes, all the choirs I have seen are about 3-5 people to lead the singing.

If I were part of the choir/cantor group of the church, I would definitely want all the notation, but I am very happy without it otherwise. I have almost always gone to Parishes with very strong cantors, so I did not need to follow along with the music to know what I was doing.

I would have liked to have seen two editions - one with and one without notations. I know that the old books did come both ways. Some people had their own personal books for certain feasts I think. I never got a close look, so there may not have been a comprehensive version.

The other thing that these new books lack is the OLD CHURCH SLAVONIC transliterated into the roman alphabet. I need this, otherwise I cannot follow when we do the occasional round of a hymn, etc. in the old tongue. Not even my ancestors were native speakers of a Slovakian language. I remember a few words from before the switch, but not enough. I only have about 3 or 4 solid years of going to a Byzantine liturgy before I was at a parish using the new books.