Roman Catholics and Icons

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I don’t think many Roman Catholics see Icons as Byzantines or Copts do. Many regard them as religious artwork like any baroque or renaissance artist, which is unfortunate. Aside from education and catechesis both on a personal and group level, should we go about generating a veneration of the Holy Icons or at least a respect from Roman Catholics.

How should I as a Byzantine interface with a community that abuses or mistreats it’s Icons. By this I mean, I’ve been to many Roman Catholic parishes or communities that have Icons, perhaps even handpainted icons that are never reverenced, or a used as decorative pieces of artwork?

 

[Wesley7]

I’m not sure.

If somehow Roman Catholicism is fused with Eastern Orthodoxy you end up as a Eastern Catholic.

 

[LDNCatholic]

How should I as a Byzantine interface with a community that abuses or mistreats it’s Icons. By this I mean, I’ve been to many Roman Catholic parishes or communities that have Icons, perhaps even handpainted icons that are never reverenced, or a used as decorative pieces of artwork?

Not an expert here. But perhaps you should begin reverencing them, leading by example (which you may already do). Or perhaps even speak to the pastor about starting up a class/group to give information about the proper use of icons?

 

[LDNCatholic]

I’m not sure.

If somehow Roman Catholicism is fused with Eastern Orthodoxy you end up as a Eastern Catholic.

OP is not talking about fusing the two.

Icons may not be part of the Latin tradition but it is perfectly acceptable for Roman Rite Catholics to revere icons, we would not need to change our Church to do so.

I don’t know if this is possible but perhaps some sort of informational literature near an icon? At my parish we have statues of Saints Joseph, Jude, Patrick, and Vincent Pallotti as well as Christ and the Blessed Virgin. Next to some of these statues is a framed sheet of paper with some information about the saint and a prayer to them.

Maybe that would allow you to highlight the importance of icons and help people to properly reverence them.

 

[mardukm]

Icons may not be part of the Latin tradition.

Are you sure? Weren’t stained glass depictions originally intended to be icons in the Latin Church?

it is perfectly acceptable for Roman Rite Catholics to revere icons, we would not need to change our Church to do so.

Agreed. Off-hand, from my dealings with Latin Catholics (in the real world), I can think of two items that are revered as icons in the same sense as Byzantines and Copts do - the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and (I forget the name) the image of Jesus with rays of light flowing forth from His Heart.

Maybe that would allow you to highlight the importance of icons and help people to properly reverence them.

Agreed, as well. I believe oftentimes, it is a matter of just making people aware of the significance of these sacred objects.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[LDNCatholic]

Are you sure?

Nope . I did put ‘‘may’’ to indicate this but looking back I can see that it doesn’t read that way.

Weren’t stained glass depictions originally intended to be icons in the Latin Church?

I haven’t heard that before, that’s interesting, will have to read up on that.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Agreed. Off-hand, from my dealings with Latin Catholics (in the real world), I can think of two items that are revered as icons in the same sense as Byzantines and Copts do - the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and (I forget the name) the image of Jesus with rays of light flowing forth from His Heart.

The Image of the Divine Mercy?

 

[BusterMartin]

Maybe that would allow you to highlight the importance of icons and help people to properly reverence them.

Having a sheet would be helpful…especially with directions on how to properly reverence an icon. I wouldn’t stop with just explaining what is on the icon or what the EC Church’s view on icons is. That would be helpful indeed, but information on reverencing is also very important as that is somewhat foreign to most RC’ers.

I am a Roman Catholic and I attend Byzantine DL once or twice a month…when I do I notice that most people don’t reverence them at all, or for those who do then the way they reverence varies greatly. Some kiss the icon, some don’t - some cross themselves once, some three times - some bow, some don’t - some bow and cross themselves…well, you get the picture.

With so much variation even at an EC Church, how are Roman Catholics at a Roman Catholic Church going to know how to reverence an icon? Not only do we generally just treat them as artwork (or simply as an aid in prayer), we wouldn’t know what to do if we did understand more of the spiritual concept behind them.

Also, are all “icons” actual icons? I mean, just because something is hanging in a RC Church that looks like an icon, does that mean it really is? I guess what I’m asking is…Is there something that makes an icon authentic and worthy of venerating, or is anything that looks like an icon an icon? I hope that makes sense…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Our Lady of Perpetual Help is one of the most venerated Byzantine icons in the Roman Catholic Church. I grew up with it and the National Shrine of the Our Lady of Perpetual Help is one of the top “devotion destinations” in the Philippines. I can tell you though that people there (there are no Eastern Christians there until about a decade ago) do not have the appreciation of the icon as Byzantines do.

 

[Madaglan]

Are you sure? Weren’t stained glass depictions originally intended to be icons in the Latin Church?

Agreed. Off-hand, from my dealings with Latin Catholics (in the real world), I can think of two items that are revered as icons in the same sense as Byzantines and Copts do - the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and (I forget the name) the image of Jesus with rays of light flowing forth from His Heart.

Blessings,
Marduk

Pope Benedict XVI has called stained glass “icons of light”. The difference between them and Eastern icons, however, is that Latin Catholics do not “venerate” stained glass depictions. They are largely for instructional purposes.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is particularly revered because it is considered a miraculously appearing image, one not made by human hands.

The Sacred Heart of Jesus, which in many depictions have rays of light coming out of his heart, in terms of worship given the image (or statue), comes closer to the veneration of an icon, although in this case veneration is focused on a specific body part, Christ’s Sacred Heart. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is based on a vision of a Catholic nun (Margaret Mary Alacoque).

The Divine Mercy depiction, which has even bigger rays of light coming out of Christ’s heart, may be based on the Sacred Heart depiction.

 

[mardukm]

Pope Benedict XVI has called stained glass “icons of light”. The difference between them and Eastern icons, however, is that Latin Catholics do not “venerate” stained glass depictions. They are largely for instructional purposes.

That sounds right.

The Sacred Heart of Jesus, which in many depictions have rays of light coming out of his heart, in terms of worship given the image (or statue), comes closer to the veneration of an icon, although in this case veneration is focused on a specific body part, Christ’s Sacred Heart.

I don’t think this is a correct description. In Latin Catholic eucharistic theology, the tiniest morsel of the bread, the slightest drop of the wine, is fully and truly the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord. The WHOLE Person of Jesus is present.

It stands to reason that when Latins venerate an image of a specific body part such as Jesus’ Sacred Heart, they don’t conceive of it as venerating His Heart per se (i.e., “a specific body part”), but rather of venerating the WHOLE Person of Jesus.

My Latin brethren, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cristiano]

If you want to freak out look at the icons written by Brother Robert Lentz a Byzantine Rite member that is also a Franciscan friar. It is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Cristiano]

That sounds right.

I don’t think this is a correct description. In Latin Catholic eucharistic theology, the tiniest morsel of the bread, the slightest drop of the wine, is fully and truly the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord. The WHOLE Person of Jesus is present.

It stands to reason that when Latins venerate an image of a specific body part such as Jesus’ Sacred Heart, they don’t conceive of it as venerating His Heart per se (i.e., “a specific body part”), but rather of venerating the WHOLE Person of Jesus.

My Latin brethren, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Blessings,
Marduk

I do not think that you are wrong, on the contrary I would say that you are quite correct.

*"And He showed me that it was His great desire of being loved by men and of withdrawing them from the path of ruin into which Satan hurls such crowds of them, that made Him form the design of manifesting His Heart to men, with all the treasures of love, of mercy, of grace, of sanctification and salvation which it contains, in order that those who desire to render Him and procure for Him all the honor and love possible, might themselves be abundantly enriched with those divine treasures of which this Heart is the source.

He should be honored under the figure of this Heart of flesh, and its image should be exposed…He promised me that wherever this image should be exposed with a view to showing it special honor, He would pour forth His blessings and graces. This devotion was the last effort of His love that He would grant to men in these latter ages, in order to withdraw them from the empire of Satan which He desired to destroy, and thus to introduce them into the sweet liberty of the rule of His love, which He wished to restore in the hearts of all those who should embrace this devotion."… “The devotion is so pleasing to Him that He can refuse nothing to those who practice it.”*

from Revelations of Our Lord to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

 

[Jakub]

98% of what I have is of Eastern origin, though I retain some “Roman” articles that were given to me when I was a young, many moons ago…

 

[Wesley7]

The Image of the Divine Mercy?

That image is canonically approved.

 

[jazzy_987]

Our Lady of Perpetual Help is one of the most venerated Byzantine icons in the Roman Catholic Church. I grew up with it and the National Shrine of the Our Lady of Perpetual Help is one of the top “devotion destinations” in the Philippines. I can tell you though that people there (there are no Eastern Christians there until about a decade ago) do not have the appreciation of the icon as Byzantines do.

When I saw the thread title, the first thought that came to mind was “Our Lady of Perpetual Help”.

But yes, I feel like it is common to see icons as artwork. Brochures, info booklets, etc, would be nice.

 

[Madaglan]

That sounds right.

I don’t think this is a correct description. In Latin Catholic eucharistic theology, the tiniest morsel of the bread, the slightest drop of the wine, is fully and truly the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord. The WHOLE Person of Jesus is present.

It stands to reason that when Latins venerate an image of a specific body part such as Jesus’ Sacred Heart, they don’t conceive of it as venerating His Heart per se (i.e., “a specific body part”), but rather of venerating the WHOLE Person of Jesus.

My Latin brethren, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Blessings,
Marduk

Where did I say the whole is discluded? I was simply pointing out that the devotional focus on “parts” of Jesus (yes, representing his fullness) is not the same approach as worship of icons in the East. There is an element of synedoche in the Sacred Heart of Jesus; yet, the Sacred Heart, being divine and source of many good things, is also venerated.

The heart is central to the person, and so veneration of Christ’s sacred, human heart is not separate from Christ’s personhood.

 

[Wesley7]

The heart is central to the person, and so veneration of Christ’s sacred, human heart is not separate from Christ’s personhood.

I thought the same thing about the sacred heart ~ that it was a Latin “innovation.”

 

[Alexander_Roman]

In terms of the “how to” for venerating icons, one would have an icon and a Cross on the “tetrapod” table before the iconostasis and also on other icon stands around the front and often when one enters the Church.

Such icons are placed there for special reverence. We go up to them and make the Sign of the Cross twice, bowing before them each time. Then we move up to the icon itself to kiss it. We follow the example of the woman with the issue of blood who only wanted to touch the edge of Christ’s garment and was healed for her humility and faith.

So we kiss the Feet of Christ on the icon or on the Winding Sheet/Epitaphion only. In icons of the Face of Christ, we kiss the edge of His Beard. We do similarly for icons of the Mother of God and the Saints.

Then we move back and make another Sign of the Cross with a bow.

We may do single reverences with the Sign of the Cross before icons of Saints on the walls etc. At such times, we would do well to invoke the subject being depicted:

Before the Cross of Christ “Glory O Lord to Thy Most Precious Cross and Thy Resurrection!” (We should especially say this prayer when we go up to the Priest to receive his blessing and the antidoron.)

To Icons of Christ: the Jesus Prayer or “Glory to Thee, O God, Glory to Thee” - same for Icons of the Most Holy Trinity.

“Most holy Theotokos save us!” to icons of the Mother of God. “Saint _____ pray unto God for me!” etc.

Whenever the priest/bishop censes in church, we should say: “Thy Good Spirit shall lead me into the path of righteousness.”

Upon entering and leaving the Church or our home, we should cross ourselves saying the Jesus Prayer or the Prayer of the publican, three times etc.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I thought the same thing about the sacred heart ~ that it was a Latin “innovation.”

However, St Nicholas Cabasilas and St Nicodemos the Hagiorite did write devotionally about the Heart of Christ. St Dmitri of Rostov and also places in the Eastern Octoechos do make mention of the Wounded Side (and even “Heart”) of Christ. It is a practice in the East to kiss the edge of the Chalice immediately after receiving Holy Communion in veneration of the Wounded Side (Heart) of Christ since it is from this Eternal and Life-Giving Fountain of Salvation that we are nourished in Holy Communion.

Alex