Roman Catholics and Icons

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The reason why icons have a greater liturgical role in the East than the West is the same reason why the West has Eucharistic adoration and the East doesn’t. Veneration of icons was attacked by heretics in the East during the 8th century, while in the West there were no attacks. On the flip side the Real Presence of Christ was attacked by heretics in the West, while in the East there were no attacks.
 
=Michael_M;11533339]I’m really baffled by all the non-answers I’m getting. It’s a straight-forward question, in principle. I’ll re-state it once again. What are the theological and/or historical reasons for the difference in the usage of icons between east and west? I’m not sure why all the Catholics here are trying to pretend that the usage of icons in the Latin church is the same as in Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches. It isn’t. Icons in the East are flat, they are not naturalistic, they are constantly kissed in Eastern churches, and most Eastern Christian homes have them in an eastern corner of the house amongst olive oil and burning candles. Icons are much more sparse in Latin churches, they are not treated the same way, and do not have the same level of importance, nor are they fundamental to the Novus Ordo liturgy.
I’d appreciate it if people replying would stop trying to convince me that there aren’t any differences by emphasizing how much they don’t have a problem with icons, or how important icons are in the Latin church. They aren’t treated the same, and the Latin church does not have the same mentality towards them. There are differences, and I’m trying to understand the source of the difference, without any normative implications. Thanks.
My friend,

Charity is the way we have been taught to respond. I DO appreciate you’re fustration.

The Direct answer is that to the BEST on my knowledge; there is NO theological basis; BUT only a preference of “taste” for one or the other.🙂

I wounder perhaps is the lack of skilled artist is a significant factor? Or perhpas its monet [cost] related?

God Bless you!
 
Not any 2D representation of a Saint is an icon, and Eastern Orthodox will never accept representations of e.g. the Sacred Heart as icons, since they don’t conform to the very specific rules of “writing” icons.

This is a matter of personal preference, but even though I live in an Orthodox country I much prefer the western depictions of Jesus, Mary, and the Saints (whether statues or 2D images): the stern/sad faces on icons either scare me or sadden me. I’m not looking for a feel-good church, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the western depictions, and I think Orthodox are guilty of having taken the cult of icons so far as to consider them the only acceptable means of depicting Jesus and the Saints, which I can’t accept as true.
 
Why is it the case that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, as well as Eastern Catholics venerate icons, and make icons a major aspect of the liturgical and prayer life of the faith community, yet the Roman Catholic church does not? It is confusing to me that of the original five patriarchates, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and Rome, Rome is the only one that does not have a place for icons in liturgical life. Can anyone explain this difference to me from an historical and/or theological point of view?

Thanks!
Based on the thread so far, I would guess that you aren’t looking for an honest answer, but rather you are looking for someone to supply the answer you already think you have. Do the West and East use icons and other images (statues, paintings, etc.) Differently? Absolutely. Is one style better than the other? No, although one style might be better for an individual person’s spiritual style.

Icons ARE important in Roman Catholic Worship. They are just used differently than in the East. And if you like one way over the other, that’s fine. Thousands of Eastern Catholics use icons in their own cultural way and that is a beautiful part of the Catholic (I.e. Universal) faith.

And if you like the Eastern use of icons, you have a lot to thank the Roman Church for; during the period of the iconoclast heresy, a huge amount of the Eastern Churches, including emperors and patriarchs, busied themselves with the destruction of icons. It was due to the firm insistence of the West, led by the Popes, that the use of icons was preserved.

Now, let’s put history aside for a second and think of just the last few months. What was the FIRST act made by Pope Francis the day after he was elected? He journeyed to pray in front of Rome’s beloved icon of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, under her title Help of Romans. Surely that speaks to our Roman use for and love of icons.

That is a good answer. I hope you will consider it and look into the information I have given you.

That being said, I do sometimes get frustrated whenever the discussion of icons turns in the icons vs. statues directions. I don’t think they are analogous, especially not in the either-or sort of way. For one, orthodox churches DO use statues. They aren’t hard to find. Secondly, the most similar tradition Roman Catholics have to the eastern use of icons is actually STAINED GLASS, which has a far more developed theology in the west than in the east. Just as an Eastern Christian would be spiritually impoverished without icons, woe to those who build and have been building Roman churches without stained glass.

See this link for a beautiful explanation of the theology of stained glass:youtube.com/watch?v=DZ3pjqfTw5c&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
Based on the thread so far, I would guess that you aren’t looking for an honest answer, but rather you are looking for someone to supply the answer you already think you have. Do the West and East use icons and other images (statues, paintings, etc.) Differently? Absolutely. Is one style better than the other? No, although one style might be better for an individual person’s spiritual style.

Icons ARE important in Roman Catholic Worship. They are just used differently than in the East. And if you like one way over the other, that’s fine. Thousands of Eastern Catholics use icons in their own cultural way and that is a beautiful part of the Catholic (I.e. Universal) faith.

And if you like the Eastern use of icons, you have a lot to thank the Roman Church for; during the period of the iconoclast heresy, a huge amount of the Eastern Churches, including emperors and patriarchs, busied themselves with the destruction of icons. It was due to the firm insistence of the West, led by the Popes, that the use of icons was preserved.

Now, let’s put history aside for a second and think of just the last few months. What was the FIRST act made by Pope Francis the day after he was elected? He journeyed to pray in front of Rome’s beloved icon of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, under her title Help of Romans. Surely that speaks to our Roman use for and love of icons.

That is a good answer. I hope you will consider it and look into the information I have given you.

That being said, I do sometimes get frustrated whenever the discussion of icons turns in the icons vs. statues directions. I don’t think they are analogous, especially not in the either-or sort of way. For one, orthodox churches DO use statues. They aren’t hard to find. Secondly, the most similar tradition Roman Catholics have to the eastern use of icons is actually STAINED GLASS, which has a far more developed theology in the west than in the east. Just as an Eastern Christian would be spiritually impoverished without icons, woe to those who build and have been building Roman churches without stained glass.

See this link for a beautiful explanation of the theology of stained glass:youtube.com/watch?v=DZ3pjqfTw5c&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Excellent post. This is exactly the kind of logical and charitable response I have come to expect from Catholics.

It’s also good that you bring up the Eastern Catholics: it’s a testimony to the fullness of Catholic faith when Churches from ALL liturgical traditions (Alexandrian, Antiochian, East Syrian, Armenian, Byzantine, and last but not least Latin) and their corresponding rites are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

With each day I become more convinced that the truth lies within the Catholic Church.
 
Good post. It is definitely true that Rome stood strong during the iconoclastic crisis that was rampant in the East. Many Eastern monks fled to Rome and other parts of Italy to escape persecution from the Byzantine Emperor. Many of the oldest icons in the world are in the Catholic Churches of Rome. I’ve seen some of them in the major Roman basilicas. The reason for this is most of the older icons in the East were destroyed by iconoclast heretics.
Based on the thread so far, I would guess that you aren’t looking for an honest answer, but rather you are looking for someone to supply the answer you already think you have. Do the West and East use icons and other images (statues, paintings, etc.) Differently? Absolutely. Is one style better than the other? No, although one style might be better for an individual person’s spiritual style.

Icons ARE important in Roman Catholic Worship. They are just used differently than in the East. And if you like one way over the other, that’s fine. Thousands of Eastern Catholics use icons in their own cultural way and that is a beautiful part of the Catholic (I.e. Universal) faith.

And if you like the Eastern use of icons, you have a lot to thank the Roman Church for; during the period of the iconoclast heresy, a huge amount of the Eastern Churches, including emperors and patriarchs, busied themselves with the destruction of icons. It was due to the firm insistence of the West, led by the Popes, that the use of icons was preserved.

Now, let’s put history aside for a second and think of just the last few months. What was the FIRST act made by Pope Francis the day after he was elected? He journeyed to pray in front of Rome’s beloved icon of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, under her title Help of Romans. Surely that speaks to our Roman use for and love of icons.

That is a good answer. I hope you will consider it and look into the information I have given you.

That being said, I do sometimes get frustrated whenever the discussion of icons turns in the icons vs. statues directions. I don’t think they are analogous, especially not in the either-or sort of way. For one, orthodox churches DO use statues. They aren’t hard to find. Secondly, the most similar tradition Roman Catholics have to the eastern use of icons is actually STAINED GLASS, which has a far more developed theology in the west than in the east. Just as an Eastern Christian would be spiritually impoverished without icons, woe to those who build and have been building Roman churches without stained glass.

See this link for a beautiful explanation of the theology of stained glass:youtube.com/watch?v=DZ3pjqfTw5c&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
I’m really baffled by all the non-answers I’m getting. It’s a straight-forward question, in principle. I’ll re-state it once again. What are the theological and/or historical reasons for the difference in the usage of icons between east and west? I’m not sure why all the Catholics here are trying to pretend that the usage of icons in the Latin church is the same as in Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches. It isn’t. Icons in the East are flat, they are not naturalistic, they are constantly kissed in Eastern churches, and most Eastern Christian homes have them in an eastern corner of the house amongst olive oil and burning candles. Icons are much more sparse in Latin churches, they are not treated the same way, and do not have the same level of importance, nor are they fundamental to the Novus Ordo liturgy.

I’d appreciate it if people replying would stop trying to convince me that there aren’t any differences by emphasizing how much they don’t have a problem with icons, or how important icons are in the Latin church. They aren’t treated the same, and the Latin church does not have the same mentality towards them. There are differences, and I’m trying to understand the source of the difference, without any normative implications. Thanks.
Perhaps I understand what you are getting at, the difference between western style pictures and Eastern Icons.

I was baptized at a Russian Orthodox church in Texas where they have a true icon of the Theotokos of Tepeyak which is the same as the Catholic picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Before I was Orthodox I was Roman Rite Catholic, and they do have at least some Icons.

I never saw a Redemptorist parish without a true Icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help. Polish Catholics are fond of the Black Maddona, again a true Eastern non naturalistic Icon.
 
You say this because your experience is limited to Western European/American style Catholicism. Deeply intellectual. It goes back to our emphasis on systematic theology as the high point of rational faith, our invention of the medieval university, the development of textbooks – all Western European things that have profoundly influenced the way we do faith. Go into South America or Mexico and your Orthodox devotion to icons will pale in comparison to Catholic devotion to icons.

I will also mention that my experience with Orthodox icons is that they are educative. They adorn the front of the church and serve as reminders of important persons in salvation history and Church history. And that purpose is fulfilled in Catholic churches by our stained-glass windows, which are usually icon-like, if they don’t fulfill the definition of icons, which some do.
👍 Well said.
 
Because my conversion isn’t simply a matter of liturgy. I cannot in good conscience remain in communion with a church that believes mere mortals can be infallible. I believe that the bishop of Rome is merely the Patriarch of the West, and does not have the authority the Latin church believes he does. I have much love and respect for the Latin church; I did much of my spiritual growth as a Latin. However, it is my plan to return home to the Church of Acts.
So, your basic complaint is you don’t believe God would ever put one man in charge. What do you think about Moses? His authority was supreme, and he was God’s direct spokesman much like the role the Pope has today. Have you ever wondered why God would put Moses, one mortal man, in charge of all of God’s people? Why did God give extra special authority to Moses instead of saying that Moses had no more authority than any of the other select leaders at the time? If you lived back in the time of Moses would you have had a problem with submitting to Moses’ authority? The point is that there is a precedent in salvation history for God putting one mortal man in charge and giving him supreme authority over all of God’s people. Then, in the New Testament, there is a mountain of evidence for the Primacy of Peter (linked is the scriptural evidence).
 
My guess is, like others have said, that the greater emphasis on the veneration of images is due to liturgy developing differently in remote parts of the world. The formal and elaborate veneration of images is not something handed down from the Apostles, but something that developed gradually with time. The Catholic Encyclopedia states,

Distinct from the admission of images is the question of the way they are treated. What signs of reverence, if any, did the first Christians give to the images in their catacombs and churches? For the first period we have no information. There are so few references to images at all in the earliest Christian literature that we should hardly have suspected their ubiquitous presence were they not actually there in the catacombs as the most convincing argument. But these catacomb paintings tell us nothing about how they were treated. We may take it for granted, on the one hand, that the first Christians understood quite well that paintings may not have any share in the adoration due to God alone. Their monotheism, their insistence on the fact that they serve only one almighty unseen God, their horror of the idolatry of their neighbours, the torture and death that their martyrs suffered rather than lay a grain of incense before the statue of the emperor’s numen are enough to convince us that they were not setting up rows of idols of their own. On the other hand, the place of honour they give to their symbols and pictures, the care with which they decorate them argue that they treated representations of their most sacred beliefs with at least decent reverence. It is from this reverence that the whole tradition of venerating holy images gradually and naturally developed. After the time of Constantine it is still mainly by conjecture that we are able to deduce the way these images were treated. The etiquette of the Byzantine court gradually evolved elaborate forms of respect, not only for the person of Ceesar but even for his statues and symbols. Philostorgius (who was an Iconoclast long before the eighth century) says that in the fourth century the Christian Roman citizens in the East offered gifts, incense, and even prayers, to the statues of the emperor (Hist. eccl., II, 17). It would be natural that people who bowed to, kissed, incensed the imperial eagles and images of Caesar (with no suspicion of anything like idolatry), who paid elaborate reverence to an empty throne as his symbol, should give the same signs to the cross, the images of Christ, and the altar. So in the first Byzantine centuries there grew up traditions of respect that gradually became fixed, as does all ceremonial. Such practices spread in some measure to Rome and the West, but their home was the Court at Constantinople. Long afterwards the Frankish bishops in the eighth century were still unable to understand forms that in the East were natural and obvious, but to Germans seemed degrading and servile (Synod of Frankfort, 794; see ICONOCLASM IV). It is significant too that, although Rome and Constantinople agree entirely as to the principle of honouring holy images with signs of reverence, the descendants of the subjects of the Eastern emperor still go far beyond us in the use of such signs.

The development was then a question of genera fashion rather than of principle. To the Byzantine Christian of the fifth and sixth centuries prostrations, kisses, incense were the natural ways of showing honour to any one; he was used to such things, even applied to his civil and social superiors; he was accustomed to treat symbols in the same way, giving them relative honour that was obviously meant really for their prototypes. And so he carried his normal habits with him into church. Tradition, the conservative instinct that in ecclesiastical matters always insists or custom, gradually stereotyped such practices till they were written down as rubrics and became part of the ritual. Nor is there any suspicion that the people who were unconsciously evolving this ritual, confused the image with its prototype or forgot that to God only supreme homage is due. The forms they used were as natural to them as saluting a flag is to us.
newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

The mistake is if we assume that Orthodoxy as practiced in Twenty-First Century Moscow is identical to the worship of the Apostles in the First Century. Contrary to what I have seen some Orthodox posters claim online, St. Paul did not celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The Romans did not tear out their icons or remove them from their liturgy. The Oriental customs were never part of their tradition to begin with.
 
From Fr Michael AkzoulIcons are more than sacred pictures. Everything about them is theological. For example, they are always flat, flat so that we who inhabit the physical world will understand that the world of the spirit where Christ, His Mother, the angels, the saints, and the departed dwell, is a world of mystery which cannot be penetrated by our five senses.

Customarily, Roman Catholicism has historically employed statues in its worship. The statues are life-like and three-dimensional. They seem to imitate the art of ancient Greece. Both arts are naturalistic. The Latins portray Christ, the Mother of God, the saints, even the angels, as if they were in a state of nature. This “naturalism” stems from the medieval idea that “grace perfects nature.”

The person or persons are represented on the icon as deified. He or she is not a perfect human being, but much more: They are transfigured and glorified. They have a new and grace-filled humanity.

Important to remember is the Latin theory of grace: It is created by God for man. Orthodoxy teaches, as we recall, that grace is uncreated, and impacts all creation. It is a mysterious extension of the Divine Nature. Orthodox iconography reflects this truth, even as Roman Catholic statues reflect its idea of grace.
ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html
Oh, please! I could just as easily say that Byzantine icons portray a gnostic view of Christ while Western statues portray an Incarnational Christ or some nonsense like that. Such explanations are only useful insofar as they give meaning to our own practices. They are not meaningful for denigrating other traditions. Furthermore, your source has a caricatured understanding of Latin theology to begin with an is no place of authority to even begin to try to draw such distinctions. Finally, my question for you is what purpose did you even have to post your excerpt since it does not even pertain to the question of the thread. How can “medieval ideas” have caused the difference in practice between East and West when the difference long predates the Middle Ages?
 
This has not been my experience in the least. And I think the pretense that icons play the same role for Latins as they do for Eastern Christians is false. Perhaps as you say, icons play a big role in some Latin parish communities. Nevertheless, they play an especially important, and central role in Eastern liturgical life. I am yet to receive an answer as to why this difference exists./]

Some of the posts on the thread are confusing as Eastern Orthodox use
is being addressed as Eastern Catholic use and yet the two religions
are NOT the same. Therefore usage may not be the same.

My family is a blended Eastern Western Catholic family. So we have it
all. I can honestly state that icons enjoy no “spiritual superiority” over
statues. The owner of one is not immediately elevated to a higher holiness
than his Latin counterpart with the lowly plaster of Paris statue. I do know
this thinking exists among certain of my relatives and it is a major turn
off.
One of the better ways of looking at it in which the first responder almost
but didnt quite get to is our icons represent the glorified in Heaven and
the statues in their three dimensional aspect represent the earthly humanity of
the glorified as well which tends to be lacking in the flat planes and exaggerated
body parts in iconography.
 
My guess is, like others have said, that the greater emphasis on the veneration of images is due to liturgy developing differently in remote parts of the world. The formal and elaborate veneration of images is not something handed down from the Apostles, but something that developed gradually with time. The Catholic Encyclopedia states,

Distinct from the admission of images is the question of the way they are treated. What signs of reverence, if any, did the first Christians give to the images in their catacombs and churches? For the first period we have no information. There are so few references to images at all in the earliest Christian literature that we should hardly have suspected their ubiquitous presence were they not actually there in the catacombs as the most convincing argument. But these catacomb paintings tell us nothing about how they were treated. We may take it for granted, on the one hand, that the first Christians understood quite well that paintings may not have any share in the adoration due to God alone. Their monotheism, their insistence on the fact that they serve only one almighty unseen God, their horror of the idolatry of their neighbours, the torture and death that their martyrs suffered rather than lay a grain of incense before the statue of the emperor’s numen are enough to convince us that they were not setting up rows of idols of their own. On the other hand, the place of honour they give to their symbols and pictures, the care with which they decorate them argue that they treated representations of their most sacred beliefs with at least decent reverence. It is from this reverence that the whole tradition of venerating holy images gradually and naturally developed. After the time of Constantine it is still mainly by conjecture that we are able to deduce the way these images were treated. The etiquette of the Byzantine court gradually evolved elaborate forms of respect, not only for the person of Ceesar but even for his statues and symbols. Philostorgius (who was an Iconoclast long before the eighth century) says that in the fourth century the Christian Roman citizens in the East offered gifts, incense, and even prayers, to the statues of the emperor (Hist. eccl., II, 17). It would be natural that people who bowed to, kissed, incensed the imperial eagles and images of Caesar (with no suspicion of anything like idolatry), who paid elaborate reverence to an empty throne as his symbol, should give the same signs to the cross, the images of Christ, and the altar. So in the first Byzantine centuries there grew up traditions of respect that gradually became fixed, as does all ceremonial. Such practices spread in some measure to Rome and the West, but their home was the Court at Constantinople. Long afterwards the Frankish bishops in the eighth century were still unable to understand forms that in the East were natural and obvious, but to Germans seemed degrading and servile (Synod of Frankfort, 794; see ICONOCLASM IV). It is significant too that, although Rome and Constantinople agree entirely as to the principle of honouring holy images with signs of reverence, the descendants of the subjects of the Eastern emperor still go far beyond us in the use of such signs.

The development was then a question of genera fashion rather than of principle. To the Byzantine Christian of the fifth and sixth centuries prostrations, kisses, incense were the natural ways of showing honour to any one; he was used to such things, even applied to his civil and social superiors; he was accustomed to treat symbols in the same way, giving them relative honour that was obviously meant really for their prototypes. And so he carried his normal habits with him into church. Tradition, the conservative instinct that in ecclesiastical matters always insists or custom, gradually stereotyped such practices till they were written down as rubrics and became part of the ritual. Nor is there any suspicion that the people who were unconsciously evolving this ritual, confused the image with its prototype or forgot that to God only supreme homage is due. The forms they used were as natural to them as saluting a flag is to us.
newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

The mistake is if we assume that Orthodoxy as practiced in Twenty-First Century Moscow is identical to the worship of the Apostles in the First Century. Contrary to what I have seen some Orthodox posters claim online, St. Paul did not celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The Romans did not tear out their icons or remove them from their liturgy. The Oriental customs were never part of their tradition to begin with.
I don’t entirely agree with the idea the early Christians did not venerate
representations. One reason is the tendency to immediately collect Holy
Relics from the get go. Pieces of the Cross, hair and nails, clothing. All
of these things relating to Christ and martyrs were collected and venerated
from the very first day. Reality is though only so many pieces of a relic
can be parted out. It is not too far of a stretch to say representations of
such could be equally enriching.
 
Some of the posts on the thread are confusing as Eastern Orthodox use
is being addressed as Eastern Catholic use and yet the two religions
are NOT the same. Therefore usage may not be the same.
I am Eastern Catholic, and have been Eastern Orthodox. In my experience, the role icons play in the Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine tradition is virtually identical to the role they play in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and the theology is the same.
 
My guess is, like others have said, that the greater emphasis on the veneration of images is due to liturgy developing differently in remote parts of the world. The formal and elaborate veneration of images is not something handed down from the Apostles, but something that developed gradually with time. The Catholic Encyclopedia states,

Distinct from the admission of images is the question of the way they are treated. What signs of reverence, if any, did the first Christians give to the images in their catacombs and churches? For the first period we have no information. There are so few references to images at all in the earliest Christian literature that we should hardly have suspected their ubiquitous presence were they not actually there in the catacombs as the most convincing argument. But these catacomb paintings tell us nothing about how they were treated. We may take it for granted, on the one hand, that the first Christians understood quite well that paintings may not have any share in the adoration due to God alone. Their monotheism, their insistence on the fact that they serve only one almighty unseen God, their horror of the idolatry of their neighbours, the torture and death that their martyrs suffered rather than lay a grain of incense before the statue of the emperor’s numen are enough to convince us that they were not setting up rows of idols of their own. On the other hand, the place of honour they give to their symbols and pictures, the care with which they decorate them argue that they treated representations of their most sacred beliefs with at least decent reverence. It is from this reverence that the whole tradition of venerating holy images gradually and naturally developed. After the time of Constantine it is still mainly by conjecture that we are able to deduce the way these images were treated. The etiquette of the Byzantine court gradually evolved elaborate forms of respect, not only for the person of Ceesar but even for his statues and symbols. Philostorgius (who was an Iconoclast long before the eighth century) says that in the fourth century the Christian Roman citizens in the East offered gifts, incense, and even prayers, to the statues of the emperor (Hist. eccl., II, 17). It would be natural that people who bowed to, kissed, incensed the imperial eagles and images of Caesar (with no suspicion of anything like idolatry), who paid elaborate reverence to an empty throne as his symbol, should give the same signs to the cross, the images of Christ, and the altar. So in the first Byzantine centuries there grew up traditions of respect that gradually became fixed, as does all ceremonial. Such practices spread in some measure to Rome and the West, but their home was the Court at Constantinople. Long afterwards the Frankish bishops in the eighth century were still unable to understand forms that in the East were natural and obvious, but to Germans seemed degrading and servile (Synod of Frankfort, 794; see ICONOCLASM IV). It is significant too that, although Rome and Constantinople agree entirely as to the principle of honouring holy images with signs of reverence, the descendants of the subjects of the Eastern emperor still go far beyond us in the use of such signs.

The development was then a question of genera fashion rather than of principle. To the Byzantine Christian of the fifth and sixth centuries prostrations, kisses, incense were the natural ways of showing honour to any one; he was used to such things, even applied to his civil and social superiors; he was accustomed to treat symbols in the same way, giving them relative honour that was obviously meant really for their prototypes. And so he carried his normal habits with him into church. Tradition, the conservative instinct that in ecclesiastical matters always insists or custom, gradually stereotyped such practices till they were written down as rubrics and became part of the ritual. Nor is there any suspicion that the people who were unconsciously evolving this ritual, confused the image with its prototype or forgot that to God only supreme homage is due. The forms they used were as natural to them as saluting a flag is to us.
newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

The mistake is if we assume that Orthodoxy as practiced in Twenty-First Century Moscow is identical to the worship of the Apostles in the First Century. Contrary to what I have seen some Orthodox posters claim online, St. Paul did not celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The Romans did not tear out their icons or remove them from their liturgy. The Oriental customs were never part of their tradition to begin with.
I am Eastern Catholic, and have been Eastern Orthodox. In my experience, the role icons play in the Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine tradition is virtually identical to the role they play in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and the theology is the same.
The split between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic is most assuredly a
“theological difference”. The most respectful attitude toward both is to
acknowledge that fact. And when serious theological differences occurs
it is also true that the intentions behind actions are different as well.
 
I don’t entirely agree with the idea the early Christians did not venerate
representations. One reason is the tendency to immediately collect Holy
Relics from the get go. Pieces of the Cross, hair and nails, clothing. All
of these things relating to Christ and martyrs were collected and venerated
from the very first day. Reality is though only so many pieces of a relic
can be parted out. It is not too far of a stretch to say representations of
such could be equally enriching.
Maybe I was not as clear as I could have been, but I intended my post as a response to the thread topic, which was about the difference in practice concerning the veneration of images between the Western and Eastern traditions. Now, you are correct that images were used in Christian worship and venerated from the First Century. However, images did not have such a “major role” until somewhat later. The Roman tradition has always had a more subdued practice than what developed in the Byzantine East.
 
The split between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic is most assuredly a
“theological difference”. The most respectful attitude toward both is to
acknowledge that fact. And when serious theological differences occurs
it is also true that the intentions behind actions are different as well.
These thelogical differences don’t extend to the liturgical role of icons, nor to the theology of icons.
 
The theology is different.

Current events speak to this difference. Since your Vatican II council, neo-iconoclasm has gripped the Latin Church. While there are steps to combat this, it has taken a deep hold in many places. To remove the Icons is unthinkable, yet many in your communion have no problem stripping everything.

a sad development. I say that without a hint of smugness. The thing I admired most was your classic churches…The Latin Church architecture was amazing.
 
You should drop by my home for coffee …

I am a Latin Rite Catholic and in my dining room I have 2 Icons, in my living room I have 2 Icons … …I have other rooms with Icons and I regularly use Icons in my meditations and devotions …

I have attended many Latin Rite Churches that have Icons in the Archdiocese of Portland - some have more then others - some more or less predominate

… I saw some in Rome -

Mt Angel Seminary have an Iconographer - Brother Claude - who I had the privilege to sit at table with at a dinner once …
mountangelabbey.org/monastery/iconography.htm

A nearby parish I attend sometimes:
resurrection-catholic-parish.org/
resurrection-catholic-parish.org/icons

Our past Archbishop Vlazny commissioned this Icon
archdpdx.org/icon/icon.html

An article from the Catholic Sentinal:
catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=4886

So - while I am a Latin Rite Catholic - Icons have a major role in my life both at home and liturgically - theologically and spiritually … 🤷 … as do stained glass windows and statues … bibles and missals, sacred music and hymns … 😉 … its not one or the other … they are all important …

I am deeply moved by my Icon of Christ the Teacher … and I am similarly moved by Michelangelo’s Pieta …
 
The theology is different.

Current events speak to this difference. Since your Vatican II council, neo-iconoclasm has gripped the Latin Church. While there are steps to combat this, it has taken a deep hold in many places. To remove the Icons is unthinkable, yet many in your communion have no problem stripping everything.

a sad development. I say that without a hint of smugness. The thing I admired most was your classic churches…The Latin Church architecture was amazing.
Correct. The theology is different.
And just as a certain misplaced spiritual superiority
exists among those who promote icon use by denigrating
statues (I can’t believe I am actually arguing something
so irrelevant) I admit to a drop off of the use of
sacramentals period in the Western Church. But
that drop off is due to a rising antipathy toward the Church
as a whole. It is not caused by the use of statues
rather than icons unless one believes to his peril
that the devil is lacking in intelligence.
While I have been equally surprised by Easterners
horrified by statues of Our Lady of Guadalupe
carried in procession, I have been equally surprised
by Roman Catholics entering my home and being
frightened to death by an icon of the Virgin of Vladimir
given to me by a Melkite monk. Her presence caused
one lady to “exorcise” my whole home.
Really- the premise of the thread and responders
is the problem. The idea that one is better, more
holy, or evil is where East and West are not meeting.
In the final analysis though, ask yourselves this?
Could you, like Titus Brandsma in the Nazi
Concentration camps, retain your
fervor under persecution without an icon or statue?
That is the heart of the matter. It is easiest to tend
toward pious sentimentality when surrounded
by it or what if Hitler only allowed you to take
to your death one plastic glow in the dark Fatima
statue? Because in a world where the public display
of Nativity scenes is increasingly illegal you might
be unlucky enough to hide only a two inch statue.
 
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