"Roman Church Forgeries"

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I feel that the whole church either rises or falls on the doctrine of the Papacy, if that is true all the doctrines are true. So that is the one that I choose to defend.
I like this quote because it basically calls the pope Peter.
St. Maximos the Confessor:
The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High. (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)
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Notice that it refers to the Roman church as the church that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against.

Here is another St. Maximos quote that I like.
If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic**,** it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God …Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and supreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world. (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).
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Here are a couple more good quotes
John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople:
The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren. (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)
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St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople:
Without whom [the Romans presiding in the seventh Council] a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they [the Popes of Rome] who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles. (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).
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St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople:
  • Writing to Pope Leo III ]*
    Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)
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Same author
  • Writing to Emperor Michael ]
    *Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highest of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter …and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)
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I just had to add these two from the emperor Justinian.
Emperor Justinian (520-533)

Writing to the Pope, …

Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches. (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).
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Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all. (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).
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and this one from St. Columbanus(born 543AD)
“We Irish, though dwelling at the far ends of the earth, are all disciples of St. Peter and St. Paul… We are bound to the Chair of Peter… on account of the two apostles of Christ, you (the Pope) are almost celestial, and Rome is the head of the whole world, and of the Churches.” Cardinal Gilroy and Cardinal Griffin themselves could hardly go further than describing the Pope as “almost celestial”!
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BouleTheou:
Now, would those of you who are Catholic think seriously about this for a moment? If papal primacy and jurisdiction is, in the words of Vatican 1, “the ancient and constant faith of the universal church,” why then was there ever a need for such forgeries? If it is "ancient," that means it existed long before these forgeries were written. If it is “constant,” that means the Christian church has constantly held this belief. If it is “**universal,” **then every part of Christendom, throughout the entire world held to this belief. So, like, why was there ever a need to forge ancient documents to make it look like people believed this stuff if, as Vatican 1 said, they did believe it. Sorry, I just can’t put that together.

BouleTheou
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BOULETHEOU, YOU ARE BUMPING ON A THICK, TALL, WELL FOUNDED WALL. IT HURTS AND IT’S FRUSTRATING WHEN YOU CAN’T TEAR IT DOWN.:tsktsk: JUST IMAGINE ALL THE POWERS OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAVE TRIED TO TEAR IT DOWN FOR MANY CENTURIES BUT CHRIST WORDS ARE SURELY IN EFFECT, THE GATES OF HELL WILL NEVER PREVAIL AGAINST IT. OUR FOREFATHERS AND OUR BISHOPS & PRIESTS MUST HAVE BEEN THE FIRST WHO HAD QUITED IF YOUR CLAIMS WERE TRUE SINCE THEY HAD STUDIED ALL OF THEM & THEY TOO ARE WISE.:tiphat:

REMEMBER, JESUS GOT ONLY 12 DISCIPLES AND OUT OF THE FEW, HE GOT ONE JUDAS WHO BETRAYED HIM EVENTHOUGH HE KNEW HIM WELL. I AM NOT SURPRISED IF THERE ARE AND WILL BE SOME JUDAS IN THE CHURCH TODAY WHO HAVE KNOWN VERY MUCH OF THE TRUTH BUT OUT OF SELFISHNESS HAD TO BETRAY IT TO FARTHER THEIR OWN PERSONAL CAUSES. SUCH IS THE SAD REALITY OF YOUR CLAIMS. IT’S HUMBLING TO KNOW THAT OUR CHURCH HAD ERRED BUT DEFINITELY IT WILL NOT FALL!!:nope: CHRIST WORDS WILL TRIUMPH!:yup:

GOD BLESS YOU.:amen:

-losav
 
losav -

How is what you posted in any way a response to the section of my post you quoted. Seriously, I read this stuff and say, “what the…?”

BouleTheou
 
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BouleTheou:
losav -

How is what you posted in any way a response to the section of my post you quoted. Seriously, I read this stuff and say, “what the…?”

BouleTheou
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…anything wrong with what i’ve said? 🙂
 
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JPrejean:
. . . it is a plain historical fact that many of the strongest advocates for papal infallibility invoked pseudo-Isidorean literature, the Donation of Constantine, and the Apostolic Constitutions. . . . no responsible historian would thereby conclude that there was no pre-existing basis in tradition for papal jurisdiction . . . The record absolutely would not support such a conclusion. . . . But to say that the belief was created (rather than simply strengthened) as a result of the spurious literature simply can’t be supported by the documentary evidence, and the hedges of even Orthodox historians on this point is the best evidence.
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JPrejean: I’m retiring. You’re a one-man or woman apologetic marvel! :tiphat:
 
Thanks, but I’m not the guy to compliment. The reason that I can see far is that I am standing on the shoulders of giants; I am no apologist, historian, or theologian myself. This stuff is all out there in the record, and people a LOT smarter than me, like John Henry Cardinal Newman and Yves Congar, have been pointing it out for years. Unfortunately, people criticizing them never want to answer the arguments. Such critics repeat the same arguments over and over again, even though they’ve been unambiguously refuted, or they deliberately misconstrue the Catholic author’s intent (like the persistent abuse of Newman’s acorn-to-oak analogy or the misinterpretation of terms like “ancient and constant tradition” in papal documents) in order to make it appear that the answer is inadequate. In other words, they exploit ignorance to make themselves appear reasonable. Their excuse is evidently that Catholicism is so evil that they are justified in using whatever tactic gets people out of it, rather than attempting to inform people and letting the record speak for itself.

I am perfectly happy to let the record speak for itself. The great thing about being Catholics is that you can do exactly that without any fear.
 
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losav:
BOULETHEOU, YOU ARE BUMPING ON A THICK, TALL, WELL FOUNDED WALL. IT HURTS AND IT’S FRUSTRATING WHEN YOU CAN’T TEAR IT DOWN.:tsktsk: JUST IMAGINE ALL THE POWERS OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAVE TRIED TO TEAR IT DOWN FOR MANY CENTURIES BUT CHRIST WORDS ARE SURELY IN EFFECT, THE GATES OF HELL WILL NEVER PREVAIL AGAINST IT. OUR FOREFATHERS AND OUR BISHOPS & PRIESTS MUST HAVE BEEN THE FIRST WHO HAD QUITED IF YOUR CLAIMS WERE TRUE SINCE THEY HAD STUDIED ALL OF THEM & THEY TOO ARE WISE.:tiphat:

REMEMBER, JESUS GOT ONLY 12 DISCIPLES AND OUT OF THE FEW, HE GOT ONE JUDAS WHO BETRAYED HIM EVENTHOUGH HE KNEW HIM WELL. I AM NOT SURPRISED IF THERE ARE AND WILL BE SOME JUDAS IN THE CHURCH TODAY WHO HAVE KNOWN VERY MUCH OF THE TRUTH BUT OUT OF SELFISHNESS HAD TO BETRAY IT TO FARTHER THEIR OWN PERSONAL CAUSES. SUCH IS THE SAD REALITY OF YOUR CLAIMS. IT’S HUMBLING TO KNOW THAT OUR CHURCH HAD ERRED BUT DEFINITELY IT WILL NOT FALL!!:nope: CHRIST WORDS WILL TRIUMPH!:yup:

GOD BLESS YOU.:amen:

-losav
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While in RCIA class last week, Father Mariush made a comment in passing that I almost didn’t catch. He said that you have to believe that Jesus is able to make sure that church teaches what He meant for it to teach. Well it was something like that. The jist of it was He is able to protect the teaching so that it is taught the way He meant for it to be. Now, I don’t mean to say that I accept teachings blindly. Oh, far from it. I examine and research, but I asked my Father to love the way Jesus loves and for truth. He has led me to the Catholic faith. Would my earthly father hand me a scorpian rather than bread when asked? No, my heavenly Father being better than my earthly father would honor my request for love and truth because that is in line with His will. I guess that it boils down to this for me … every jot and tittle of the faith doesn’t have to be proven to me in order to believe it. Some things you just can’t know, that’s why it’s called a mystery. Am I making any sense here?
 
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SherryLynn9:
While in RCIA class last week, Father Mariush made a comment in passing that I almost didn’t catch. He said that you have to believe that Jesus is able to make sure that church teaches what He meant for it to teach. Well it was something like that. The jist of it was He is able to protect the teaching so that it is taught the way He meant for it to be. Now, I don’t mean to say that I accept teachings blindly. Oh, far from it. I examine and research, but I asked my Father to love the way Jesus loves and for truth. He has led me to the Catholic faith. Would my earthly father hand me a scorpian rather than bread when asked? No, my heavenly Father being better than my earthly father would honor my request for love and truth because that is in line with His will. I guess that it boils down to this for me … every jot and tittle of the faith doesn’t have to be proven to me in order to believe it. Some things you just can’t know, that’s why it’s called a mystery. Am I making any sense here?
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Oh yeah, one more thing … regarding bumping your head against the wall … Didn’t Jesus stop Saul/Paul from persecuting His church?
**Acts 9
**4Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.1] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” ?

At least Paul decided to trust Jesus.
 
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