Roman Deacons vs. Eastern Deacons

  • Thread starter Thread starter Little_Boy_Lost
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Little_Boy_Lost

Guest
Just throwing this out there to start conversation. But I HATE HATE HAAAAATE the term “Permanent Deacon”. I feel it’s a subtle denigration of the ministry of diaconate.
In my observations I feel many Roman Catholics are not sure what to think of the Diaconate, some even considering it an innovation of the second Vatican council. Has anyone else encountered similar things? I also don’t think the Deacon’s role is much at all in the novus ordo mass. At least I haven’t noticed anything significant aside from the gospel reading. The ministry seems almost akin to what the Anglicans have, this quiet elder figure in the back who is somehow connected to Holy Orders but sorta is a half *** priest.
THIS IS NOT A DEACON!

The defense and beauty of the Diaconate needs to be defended. Every byzantine liturgy I’ve gone to with a deacon has made me really appreciate their role in the church. I love the oft quoted phrase “A deacon shall never be parted from his censor.” How can we show the Roman Catholic Church the rightful role of the deacon and foster a love for the diaconate?

End Rant.
 
Good question! I think we, as Roman Catholics, just need more time to really understand the diaconate. He does have more proper tasks and lines in the Mass than only reading the Gospel. He invites us to share a sign of peace, and he dismisses us. I believe he has one or two more in the Liturgy of the Word, but I can’t remember offhand.

An interesting distinction, the deacon in the Roman Rite does not often have the censor. This task has devolved onto an altar server.

I know that some people denigrate the “armies of deacons” (an actual quote from these fora), but personally I can’t wait until there is a deacon at every Mass.
 
Perhaps one of the reasons that so many people consider “permanent” deacons to be akin to a less form of humanity is precisely that they have little in the way of a true liturgical role in the Novus Ordo. (OK, in the EF the deacon’s role is limited to Solemn Mass, but compare the activity and visibility of the deacon with the Novus Ordo.) Another reason, of course, is that most (not all) so-called “permanent” deacons are married, and are often scoffed at as priest wannabes.

In any case, I’m not about to offer suggestions here: Byzantine deacons (EO and EC) are prominent and highly visible. I believe the same is true among the Oriental Orthodox and the ACoE. The Chaldeans as well, but beyond what I’ll say below about the Maronites, and my suspicion that the Syro-Malabars are similar, I don’t know the practice among the Oriental CC.

The Maronites have become a mirror of the Latins in regard to deacons (as is the case with so many other things in the past 40-some years but I digress). There was a time (not all that long ago) when “permanent” deacons were common. For various reasons, that began to change in the mid-19th century, and when it was revived in the post-conciliar era, it was well received. However, despite the fact that the books still contain (well, the neo-Maronite books far less so, but again I digress) an active and visible liturgical role for deacons, the deacon’s parts are almost always taken by a lay cantor (or cantoress), even when an ordained deacon is present. In sum, the practice is that the deacon’s role is pretty much the same as it is in the Novus Ordo: perhaps reading the Gospel, perhaps preaching, distributing communion, maybe the diptychs, and maybe the ablutions. That’s about all that’s left. No diaconal admonitions or exhortations. No diaconal litanies. Normally not even the diptychs. Not even the censor. It makes me wonder what all the hub-bub about “reviving” the “permanent” diaconate was for. Sad really. 😦
 
I don’t know where all of you are from, but in my diocese, the Deacons do a lot more than read the Gospel.

The witness wedding, serve at funerals, take care of the censor during Masses where it is appropriate, etc.

They also do a lot of counseling, work with families, and do many other things.

You can denigrate them by calling them “Priest Wanna-be’s” if you choose, but it sounds like your Bishops have more of a problem defining the role of your Deacons than anything else. The Bishop of each Diocese determines just what Deacons can, and can not, do in his diocese.

Until 3 years ago, we had NO deacon training program in out Diocese. Our Bishop was against the idea, he wanted laity to fulfill all possible roles. But, over the past 10 years, we had a number of ordained deacons move into the area. They petitioned for faculties (which were granted), and the Priests began clamoring for more of them. Finally, our old Bishop began a training program for men between 35 & 60. We have about 18 candidates in our diocese now. Many of us are pushing to have that upper age limit extended to 70.
 
malphono said:
Normally not even the diptychs. Not even the censor. It makes me wonder what all the hub-bub about “reviving” the “permanent” diaconate was for. Sad really. 😦
Click to expand...
Man I’m sorry to hear that. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I’d like to hear more from the Oriental Catholics on this subject. And thanks for the encouragement in the discussion spirit hound. What are some thoughts of yours on how we can increase the sanctity and visibility of the diaconate in the west?

I think you’ve both hit the biggest issues with deacons in the west (and some of the east). Less visibility and celebration in the Liturgy of the Church, and this perception they are not really clerics in the fullest sense. That Priests are better and can do everything a deacon can and more. And the marriage thing is also a hurdle.

I think there are also a lot of bad deacons that don’t help either. I’ve had an ongoing spat with a Roman Rite Deacon, and God willing, I can continue to pray for him and his ministry and forgive him.
 
Little_Boy_Lost said:
oft quoted phrase “A deacon shall never be parted from his censor.”

End Rant.
Click to expand...
Never heard this. I have, however, heard that I am a pyromaniac. And also, no altar server at my church worth his dalmatic would part with his censor either. 😃
 
I think part of the problem in the Latin Rite, the Novus Ordo, is that it’s so pared down, so minimal. Sunday Mass is the same as a weekday Mass, but with more music; in the case of my Church, bad music. But there no real ceremony anymore, so there’s not much that happens that can’t be done by the priest himself. Maybe it’s my American egalitarian-ness showing, but having the deacon perform the “menial” tasks of preparing the gifts just seems unnecessary.

I assume that there are things outside of the Mass that deacons do. I just don’t know what.
 
In case you missed “Acts of the Apostles” in this book called “Holy Bible”, the deaconate was instituted to free up the Priests or actual Apostles in this era for Evangelizing. Its really not the original purpose of the deacon to be heavily involved with the Liturgy. His original purpose was administrative and social workings (taking care of the widows and what not). Its just a blessing that the deacon is so involved with Chrysostom’s Liturgy. I wouldnt want to be a deacon in the Latin Church. Im much more concerned about prayer, the Liturgy, and other theological aspects than sentimental feel good work.
 
Sir_Thomas_More said:
In case you missed “Acts of the Apostles” in this book called “Holy Bible”, the deaconate was instituted to free up the Priests or actual Apostles in this era for Evangelizing. Its really not the original purpose of the deacon to be heavily involved with the Liturgy. His original purpose was administrative and social workings (taking care of the widows and what not). Its just a blessing that the deacon is so involved with Chrysostom’s Liturgy. I wouldnt want to be a deacon in the Latin Church. Im much more concerned about prayer, the Liturgy, and other theological aspects than sentimental feel good work.
Click to expand...
I did not. St. Stephen and company did a great service by allowing the presbyters to focus on their ministry by helping the bishop and his presbyters by taking some of the ministries.
 
Sir_Thomas_More said:
In case you missed “Acts of the Apostles” in this book called “Holy Bible”, the deaconate was instituted to free up the Priests or actual Apostles in this era for Evangelizing. Its really not the original purpose of the deacon to be heavily involved with the Liturgy. His original purpose was administrative and social workings (taking care of the widows and what not). Its just a blessing that the deacon is so involved with Chrysostom’s Liturgy. I wouldnt want to be a deacon in the Latin Church. Im much more concerned about prayer, the Liturgy, and other theological aspects than sentimental feel good work.
Click to expand...
Thats all well and good, but in case you haven’t noticed we no longer live in the time of the Apostles. We live here and now, and we are part of the church that has developed quite a bit since then…including the deaconate. So no matter what the original “purpose” of the deacon may have been it is quite different today, East & West. 🙂
 
The term “permanent” actually is meant to reinforce priestly celibacy. By saying married men are permanently deacons, they can never hope to become priests because of their married state. Since such a discipline doesn’t exist in the Byzantine Rite, it doesn’t really mean anything to us.
 
Little_Boy_Lost said:
. I love the oft quoted phrase “A deacon shall never be parted from his censor.”.
Click to expand...
A deacon friend of mine once told me " When a man can knock a fly off an altarboy’s nose with his censer, he is ready to be a deacon. When he can knock a fly off a bishop’s nose, he is ready to be a Archdeacon" 🙂
 
Brendan said:
A deacon friend of mine once told me " When a man can knock a fly off an altarboy’s nose with his censer, he is ready to be a deacon. When he can knock a fly off a bishop’s nose, he is ready to be a Archdeacon" 🙂
Click to expand...
If that was a Latin speaking, he had to have been an Ambrosian! The way they manage a censer is amazing, particularly so since the traditional Ambrosian censer is uncapped. 😃 No question that they give the East & Orient a run for the money. 🙂

If not a Latin, was he a Copt or Chaldean? All the East and Orient are far more talented in that department than the Latins (with the exception noted), but the Copts seem to be the most adept, followed by the Chaldeans. (I’ve not seen the Armenians or Ethiopians in “action” so-to-speak.)
 
Brendan said:
A deacon friend of mine once told me " When a man can knock a fly off an altarboy’s nose with his censer, he is ready to be a deacon. When he can knock a fly off a bishop’s nose, he is ready to be a Archdeacon" 🙂
Click to expand...
😉
 
malphono said:
If that was a Latin speaking, he had to have been an Ambrosian! The way they manage a censer is amazing, particularly so since the traditional Ambrosian censer is uncapped. 😃 No question that they give the East & Orient a run for the money. 🙂

If not a Latin, was he a Copt or Chaldean? All the East and Orient are far more talented in that department than the Latins (with the exception noted), but the Copts seem to be the most adept, followed by the Chaldeans. (I’ve not seen the Armenians or Ethiopians in “action” so-to-speak.)
Click to expand...
Now, now, malphono, let’s not forget about the ever talented Maronite deacons (well, okay, ours is actually on lone from a local Latin parish)-----but he can swing the censer really good. 👍
 
Interesting discussion. In our parish, Deacons do a great deal outside of the Mass. We have a Deacon that works with the RCIA program, one that does a great deal of work with local charities, one that helps out at the local university Catholic Center when the Pastor is gone. Our Deacons run Bible study groups, lead the liturgy of the hours and other prayer sessions, etc. They are extremely active in the parish and we are blessed to have them in my view. We tend to see them a bit as “force multipliers” since they can take on certain duties within the parish which free the Priests up for those things that they can do that a Deacon cannot.
 
WOW. The Holy Hours! Damn. That’s solid. Your parish sounds pretty sweet.
 
My dad, a roman rite deacon, has the following routine schedule:

Monday: Lead Morning Prayer, Repose the Blessed Sacrament, perform communion service, Expose the Blessed Sacrament.
Tuesday, Thursday: Lead Morning Prayer, assist at mass.
Wednesday: Lead Morning Prayer, assist and preach at mass, facilitate a study group. In the fall, be present for inquiry class during RCIA.
Friday: private prayer; during fasts, lead stations of the cross in the eveneing, and if priest absent or busy, benediction.
Saturday: Lead Morning Prayer; Alternate weeks- Lead prison visitation, perform Communion Service at prison. Once a month, teach baptism prep.
Sunday: Assist at 9am and 11 am masses; preach every other week at these two.
Other: Marriage Prep by appointment.

He used to do tribunal case prep; that was 10-12 hours a week. He still does the occasional tribunal prep. Note: He’s NOT a canon lawyer… but much of the prep is able to be done by a cleric who isn’t a canon lawyer.

Only one day a week is he “replacing” a priest… Mondays… because there’s not relief priest available. (Tho when Rev. Fr. Ed is in town visiting his folks on HIS day off, mondays are a mass, not a communion service. Or the AB or the AB Emeritus show up on a whim. Or a visiting priest shows up.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top