Romance vs. Practicality in Marriage

[Nadq]

Hello CAF members,

I am a Catholic, living in the Balkan area, here we are quite a minority. I have tried to look for a Catholic guy on a dating site, and actually ended up with establishing a relationship with an Eastern Orthodox guy from Australia.

Now, I have a few concerns here: I have a pretty well established life in my country - a career (currently a team leader), I am teaching catechism to the kids in my church, additionally I work as a project manager in an NPO, I do sports, go to business clubs, in about 2 years I would have saved enough to buy an apartment without any credits, etc. This guy led a pretty turbulent life in his 20ies, I don’t hold it against him, because he has transformed since his conversion, but it has its consequences and namely that he has started studying quite late, did not have any permanent jobs so far and he is now doing a master degree for 3 years and is only working part time. The only way this can work out is if I move to Australia, on top of the significant sacrifice that I will have to leave everything and start from scratch, I am so concerned that we would not have the means for a sheer survival there. Also I am almost 34 now and I am not ready to postpone having kids for later, even in the best case scenario I would have to wait until the end of the year, then move with him - be engaged for several months and only after that marry him. I imagine I might have to undergo a C-section and then I would need full time care + care for the baby, and he does not have neither the money, nor the time availability. He says his parent would be supportive, because they are wealthy, although not extremely rich, but I do not feel secure, and also it feels so lame for me on my age to be depending on his parents (usually I help mine), a bit of pride issue, I guess.

So, he says, that I am struggling between romanticism and skepticism, because I am not ready to go for it before my practical concerns are covered, this sounds a bit as a manipulation, because after all I am ready to give up everything I have here, I only need to know that the most basic needs of a future family would be covered.

Otherwise everything is good, he is very kind and gentle to me, he said he would agree to remain chaste before marriage (although he only had not religious girlfriends so far, so he did not practice that yet), he appreciates me mostly for my faith, he declared himself being in love pretty early in our correspondence (afterwards he met me for a few days in my country, on the way of his pilgrimage to Israel), he is flexible (agreed to come and spend all the summer holiday with me, in my country). He has great respect especially for the more traditional part of the Catholic Church - he was going for some time to Latin mass, he was volunteer with the Jesuits and still has Jesuit friends; he is very intelligent and informed about faith - having studied a BA in theology. And he treats me so well, as if he is ready to do almost anything I ask of him, and it would be such a pity if mere practicalities would ruin that!

Looking for your advice here, my family is very biased, because they don’t want to lose me to go so far (btw. they also don’t have religious background, only my father converted to Catholicism, but years after me and still has a way to go for maturity in faith). And I feel very uneasy - torn between feelings of guilt and fear.

 

[Xantippe]

Hello CAF members,

I am a Catholic, living in the Balkan area, here we are quite a minority. I have tried to look for a Catholic guy on a dating site, and actually ended up with establishing a relationship with an Eastern Orthodox guy from Australia.

Now, I have a few concerns here: I have a pretty well established life in my country - a career (currently a team leader), I am teaching catechism to the kids in my church, additionally I work as a project manager in an NPO, I do sports, go to business clubs, in about 2 years I would have saved enough to buy an apartment without any credits, etc. This guy led a pretty turbulent life in his 20ies, I don’t hold it against him, because he has transformed since his conversion, but it has its consequences and namely that he has started studying quite late, did not have any permanent jobs so far and he is now doing a master degree for 3 years and is only working part time. The only way this can work out is if I move to Australia, on top of the significant sacrifice that I will have to leave everything and start from scratch, I am so concerned that we would not have the means for a sheer survival there. Also I am almost 34 now and I am not ready to postpone having kids for later, even in the best case scenario I would have to wait until the end of the year, then move with him - be engaged for several months and only after that marry him. I imagine I might have to undergo a C-section and then I would need full time care + care for the baby, and he does not have neither the money, nor the time availability. He says his parent would be supportive, because they are wealthy, although not extremely rich, but I do not feel secure, and also it feels so lame for me on my age to be depending on his parents (usually I help mine), a bit of pride issue, I guess.

So, he says, that I am struggling between romanticism and skepticism, because I am not ready to go for it before my practical concerns are covered, this sounds a bit as a manipulation, because after all I am ready to give up everything I have here, I only need to know that the most basic needs of a future family would be covered.

Otherwise everything is good, he is very kind and gentle to me, he said he would agree to remain chaste before marriage (although he only had not religious girlfriends so far, so he did not practice that yet), he appreciates me mostly for my faith, he declared himself being in love pretty early in our correspondence (afterwards he met me for a few days in my country, on the way of his pilgrimage to Israel), he is flexible (agreed to come and spend all the summer holiday with me, in my country). He has great respect especially for the more traditional part of the Catholic Church - he was going for some time to Latin mass, he was volunteer with the Jesuits and still has Jesuit friends; he is very intelligent and informed about faith - having studied a BA in theology. And he treats me so well, as if he is ready to do almost anything I ask of him, and it would be such a pity if mere practicalities would ruin that!

Looking for your advice here, my family is very biased, because they don’t want to lose me to go so far (btw. they also don’t have religious background, only my father converted to Catholicism, but years after me and still has a way to go for maturity in faith). And I feel very uneasy - torn between feelings of guilt and fear.

How much time have you guys spent in the same country?

 

[Nadq]

So far only 4 days, but we plan on 1-2 months during the summer.

 

[Lorelei12]

He told you he was in love with you before you even met each other? And you have only seen each other in person for 4 days?

You mentioned that you are “34 and don’t want to postpone kids”, so are you considering picking up your entire life just for that or do you really want to marry him? In my opinion, ticking biological clocks are not good reasons to marry someone. How well do you really know him? You talk a lot about the “practicalities”- and those are very important too. How you will pay your bills, where you will live, how you want to raise children, etc…all of those are important. Also, it is not “romantic” for someone to declare his love for you before he’s even met you.

I think you’d be wise to slow things down a little, spend some more time getting to know him in person and discussing finances and future plans before you uproot your life.

 

[Xantippe]

Hello CAF members,

I am a Catholic, living in the Balkan area, here we are quite a minority. I have tried to look for a Catholic guy on a dating site, and actually ended up with establishing a relationship with an Eastern Orthodox guy from Australia.

Now, I have a few concerns here: I have a pretty well established life in my country - a career (currently a team leader), I am teaching catechism to the kids in my church, additionally I work as a project manager in an NPO, I do sports, go to business clubs, in about 2 years I would have saved enough to buy an apartment without any credits, etc. This guy led a pretty turbulent life in his 20ies, I don’t hold it against him, because he has transformed since his conversion, but it has its consequences and namely that he has started studying quite late, did not have any permanent jobs so far and he is now doing a master degree for 3 years and is only working part time. The only way this can work out is if I move to Australia, on top of the significant sacrifice that I will have to leave everything and start from scratch, I am so concerned that we would not have the means for a sheer survival there. Also I am almost 34 now and I am not ready to postpone having kids for later, even in the best case scenario I would have to wait until the end of the year, then move with him - be engaged for several months and only after that marry him. I imagine I might have to undergo a C-section and then I would need full time care + care for the baby, and he does not have neither the money, nor the time availability. He says his parent would be supportive, because they are wealthy, although not extremely rich, but I do not feel secure, and also it feels so lame for me on my age to be depending on his parents (usually I help mine), a bit of pride issue, I guess.

So, he says, that I am struggling between romanticism and skepticism, because I am not ready to go for it before my practical concerns are covered, this sounds a bit as a manipulation, because after all I am ready to give up everything I have here, I only need to know that the most basic needs of a future family would be covered.

Otherwise everything is good, he is very kind and gentle to me, he said he would agree to remain chaste before marriage (although he only had not religious girlfriends so far, so he did not practice that yet), he appreciates me mostly for my faith, he declared himself being in love pretty early in our correspondence (afterwards he met me for a few days in my country, on the way of his pilgrimage to Israel), he is flexible (agreed to come and spend all the summer holiday with me, in my country). He has great respect especially for the more traditional part of the Catholic Church - he was going for some time to Latin mass, he was volunteer with the Jesuits and still has Jesuit friends; he is very intelligent and informed about faith - having studied a BA in theology. And he treats me so well, as if he is ready to do almost anything I ask of him, and it would be such a pity if mere practicalities would ruin that!

Looking for your advice here, my family is very biased, because they don’t want to lose me to go so far (btw. they also don’t have religious background, only my father converted to Catholicism, but years after me and still has a way to go for maturity in faith). And I feel very uneasy - torn between feelings of guilt and fear.

In more detail:

1. How much time have you spent together in real life? Do not assume that a man is kind unless you have spent substantial amounts of time together in real life.
2. It sounds like you are quite capable of having a family in your current area at your current income level–it’s moving to Australia that makes your situation iffy.
3. I don’t know Australia, but in the US basic survival with a family is quite possible. It’s not fun at all, but simple bare survival is possible–millions of people do it. If your English is as good orally as in print, you’ll do fine in Australia.
4. What kind of religious conversion has he had that chastity is something nice that your boyfriend is willing to do for you rather than something he wants for both of you?
5. How are you going to handle NFP down the road if he isn’t completely on board?
6. I don’t think it’s bad to be a married graduate student (my husband and I married in graduate school in our early/mid 20s), but it is a red flag that your intended is older and has literally never worked a full-time job. I think it would be most reasonable to assume that what you see is what you get–he’s marginally employed now, and he’s probably going to be marginally employed in the future. Do not assume that his work or financial situation are going to improve.
7. If you had a week or two of family help after a c-section, you’d probably be covered. A lot of women have them without even that. It might be a good investment to plan to fly out a helpful relative when the time comes. Or spend $200 on a babysitter–that would get you through the worst of it.
8. “So, he says, that I am struggling between romanticism and skepticism, because I am not ready to go for it before my practical concerns are covered, this sounds a bit as a manipulation, because after all I am ready to give up everything I have here, I only need to know that the most basic needs of a future family would be covered.” Yeah.
9. Declaring himself to be instantly in love with you is not actually a plus.

I know that you must feel a lot of pressure to marry and have a family at your age, but I would encourage you to take your time in getting to know your boyfriend in his home environment. You just don’t know him well enough yet in real life.

Best wishes!

 

[Xantippe]

So far only 4 days, but we plan on 1-2 months during the summer.

Almost anybody can be nice for four days.

I don’t know how much information 1-2 months in your country is going to give you, as you’re talking about moving to a different country, and it doesn’t give you the opportunity to see him in his natural environment. It is something, but I don’t think it’s enough.

Also, I don’t know how things are in Australia, but in the US, we usually need to inform a parish that we are getting married 6 months in advance.

 

[Xantippe]

By the way, it’s not unusual for some people to be 100% romantic would-climb-the-highest-mountain-would-swim-the-deepest-sea for their beloved, but once they’re married, they stop making any sort of effort. In the case of narcissists, it’s normal for them to rush their intended into marriage.

esteemology.com/the-three-phases-of-a-narcissistic-relationship-cycle-over-evaluation-devaluation-discard/

thefrisky.com/2014-06-09/4-ways-to-spot-a-narcissist-before-he-becomes-your-boyfriend/

I’m not saying that your boyfriend is necessarily a narcissist or similar, but that you need to figure out who he is, and you can’t do that without a lot of time in the location where you would be spending your married life.

 

[1ke]

He doesn’t sound like marriage material to me.

 

[smichhertz]

You need to take it slow. No matter who you end up with, you have to take it slow and get to know them.

I understand that at your age the desire to have children is strong and the urgent need is there, but I urge caution. Don’t let that blind you.

My advice - take it slow, communicate via Skype, phone, etc. After a few months, if you’re still okay with it, then plan a trip to visit him. Australia does have a really good economy with lots of jobs, so that’s a good thing for you. You can even job hunt while you’re there if you want.

Bottomline - you should accept that the decision to move to Australia is someone independent of him. It has to be more of a “Hey even if it doesn’t work out, I’d be very happy in Australia” situation.

It is entirely up to you, but remember to take it slow. I’d advise at least a year before engagement and two years before marriage.

Best of luck! God bless you!

 

[Nadq]

He told you he was in love with you before you even met each other? And you have only seen each other in person for 4 days?

You mentioned that you are “34 and don’t want to postpone kids”, so are you considering picking up your entire life just for that or do you really want to marry him? In my opinion, ticking biological clocks are not good reasons to marry someone. How well do you really know him? You talk a lot about the “practicalities”- and those are very important too. How you will pay your bills, where you will live, how you want to raise children, etc…all of those are important. Also, it is not “romantic” for someone to declare his love for you before he’s even met you.

I think you’d be wise to slow things down a little, spend some more time getting to know him in person and discussing finances and future plans before you uproot your life.

Thank you very much for the honest response and for the expressed concern.

Yes, that unfortunately happens more often than you would imagine in cases of long-distance relationships, things seem so real and people begin to feel very involved. I am more careful with that, because I have been through the “easy come, easy go” experience.

Of course, I am not going to make a compromise for my whole life. I did not explain well in my post - I consider getting to know him in my country, then moving there for about an year and only afterwards marrying (i.e. if everything has gone well that far). I am only not prepared to wait for 3 years until he graduates, so that might happen in almost 2 year’s time. My concern is that even for moving there and getting to know him in his own environment I am already leaving everything behind, and facing a big insecurity, I might not find a job immediately and even my status would not be arranged so fast, he promises to take care, but at the moment he does not have literally anything and even shares an apartment with roommates. And what concerns me more is that he is spending immediately everything he gets, because he relies on his parents and therefore he believes he does not have to save money. We have very different attitudes towards that, probably because I was not pampered by my parents that much.

 

[Nadq]

In more detail:

1. How much time have you spent together in real life? Do not assume that a man is kind unless you have spent substantial amounts of time together in real life.

Yes, the problem is exactly taking this decision to move, I am evaluating the risks for that and how will will earn our living immediately after that.

1. It sounds like you are quite capable of having a family in your current area at your current income level–it’s moving to Australia that makes your situation iffy.
2. I don’t know Australia, but in the US basic survival with a family is quite possible. It’s not fun at all, but simple bare survival is possible–millions of people do it. If your English is as good orally as in print, you’ll do fine in Australia.

Thanks for the compliment, I work only in English for the last 8 years and I have graduated an MBA degree at an American University in my country, the language is not a concern for me.

1. What kind of religious conversion has he had that chastity is something nice that your boyfriend is willing to do for you rather than something he wants for both of you?

Well, I was the one, who introduced the topic, because it has been the stumbling block for so many of my previous attempts for relationships. He says, it would be hard for him, but it is worth doing.

1. How are you going to handle NFP down the road if he isn’t completely on board?
   Yes, he understands the NFP concept and agrees with that completely. He proposed to use the method until he graduates, but I want to have children earlier and also don’t feel like starting a marriage with abstinence.
2. I don’t think it’s bad to be a married graduate student (my husband and I married in graduate school in our early/mid 20s), but it is a red flag that your intended is older and has literally never worked a full-time job. I think it would be most reasonable to assume that what you see is what you get–he’s marginally employed now, and he’s probably going to be marginally employed in the future. Do not assume that his work or financial situation are going to improve.

Yes, I admit I have some hopes that it would improve, you are right, I have to accept that it might not happen and that is a likely scenario.

1. If you had a week or two of family help after a c-section, you’d probably be covered. A lot of women have them without even that. It might be a good investment to plan to fly out a helpful relative when the time comes. Or spend $200 on a babysitter–that would get you through the worst of it.
2. “So, he says, that I am struggling between romanticism and skepticism, because I am not ready to go for it before my practical concerns are covered, this sounds a bit as a manipulation, because after all I am ready to give up everything I have here, I only need to know that the most basic needs of a future family would be covered.” Yeah.
3. Declaring himself to be instantly in love with you is not actually a plus.

Yes, I agree with that…

I know that you must feel a lot of pressure to marry and have a family at your age, but I would encourage you to take your time in getting to know your boyfriend in his home environment. You just don’t know him well enough yet in real life.

Best wishes!

 

[Nadq]

Almost anybody can be nice for four days.

I don’t know how much information 1-2 months in your country is going to give you, as you’re talking about moving to a different country, and it doesn’t give you the opportunity to see him in his natural environment. It is something, but I don’t think it’s enough.

Also, I don’t know how things are in Australia, but in the US, we usually need to inform a parish that we are getting married 6 months in advance.

Yes, that is true, I need to move there go get to know him, that is the dilemma: to evaluate what this move might give me and what it takes from me.

As per previous post, I am not going to have a shotgun wedding for sure, I think of spending about an year with him in Australia before that. Marriage is once and for life.

 

[pianistclare]

If he does not have an work experience, he can’t possibly be the right choice. this is not an option on your poll.
Grad school and not working, relying on parents.
Next step: Post grad school and relying on you.

Find someone that you can unequivocally trust. Sounds like he’s not that person.
IMHO

 

[Nadq]

By the way, it’s not unusual for some people to be 100% romantic would-climb-the-highest-mountain-would-swim-the-deepest-sea for their beloved, but once they’re married, they stop making any sort of effort. In the case of narcissists, it’s normal for them to rush their intended into marriage.

esteemology.com/the-three-phases-of-a-narcissistic-relationship-cycle-over-evaluation-devaluation-discard/

thefrisky.com/2014-06-09/4-ways-to-spot-a-narcissist-before-he-becomes-your-boyfriend/

I’m not saying that your boyfriend is necessarily a narcissist or similar, but that you need to figure out who he is, and you can’t do that without a lot of time in the location where you would be spending your married life.

Really interesting read, I think I have met one of those before (in a previous relationship), I agree one should be careful with the signs.

 

[Lorelei12]

My concern is that even for moving there and getting to know him in his own environment I am already leaving everything behind, and facing a big insecurity, I might not find a job immediately and even my status would not be arranged so fast, he promises to take care, but at the moment he does not have literally anything and even shares an apartment with roommates. And what concerns me more is that he is spending immediately everything he gets, because he relies on his parents and therefore he believes he does not have to save money. We have very different attitudes towards that, probably because I was not pampered by my parents that much.

You are smart to be concerned about these things. If I were you, I would make him prove to me that he is ready to be a husband. That means being more responsible with money, and beginning to save for a family. It sounds like he wants to move forward with you without any effort. And have you considered asking him to move to be with you instead? Why do you have to be the one to move? It sounds like you are much more stable than he is right now, so it would probably be easier for him to make the move instead of you. He could transfer to a Master’s program somewhere else. If he is unwilling to at least entertain the idea, you’d know just how much effort he’s willing to go to for you. And I agree with Xantippe that the fact that he has never had a full time job is worrying.

 

[Nadq]

Bottomline - you should accept that the decision to move to Australia is someone independent of him. It has to be more of a “Hey even if it doesn’t work out, I’d be very happy in Australia” situation.

Thank you, I plan to take it slow. I don’t think I would be legally allowed to remain in Australia due to immigration laws… I will have to relocate back, but anyway I would have only a marginal gain of remaining there, because I have a very well paid job and opportunities in my own country.

 

[Nadq]

If he does not have an work experience, he can’t possibly be the right choice. this is not an option on your poll.
Grad school and not working, relying on parents.
Next step: Post grad school and relying on you.

Find someone that you can unequivocally trust. Sounds like he’s not that person.
IMHO

Funny, he did mention PHD and academic career in fact. When I think of it now, may be it is a good idea to find out if he is fully supporting himself with these part-time jobs or relying on his parents financially so far.

 

[Xantippe]

Of course, I am not going to make a compromise for my whole life. I did not explain well in my post - I consider getting to know him in my country, then moving there for about an year and only afterwards marrying (i.e. if everything has gone well that far).

**That’s a reasonable time table. I would only be concerned that it may not be feasible given immigration and financial issues. **

I am only not prepared to wait for 3 years until he graduates, so that might happen in almost 2 year’s time. My concern is that even for moving there and getting to know him in his own environment I am already leaving everything behind, and facing a big insecurity, I might not find a job immediately and even my status would not be arranged so fast, he promises to take care, but at the moment he does not have literally anything and even shares an apartment with roommates.

**In US (and probably Australian culture, too) an unmarried adult living with roommates is not strange. Economically speaking, it’s very practical. So, that by itself is not a red flag. **

And what concerns me more is that he is spending immediately everything he gets, because he relies on his parents and therefore he believes he does not have to save money. We have very different attitudes towards that, probably because I was not pampered by my parents that much.

Now, that is a HUGE issue.

If he is used to spending all of his money (plus a bunch of his parents’ money) on himself, it’s going to be a major adjustment to support a wife and kids. Definitely don’t get married until you see eye-to-eye on money.

A personal finance class might be a very good thing for both of you, and there are online ones that you both could take on different continents. In the US, we have Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University. The details of financial life are undoubtedly different in Australia, but the general principles (budget with your spouse, spend less than you make, save) will work in any country.

Good luck!

 

[Xantippe]

Funny, he did mention PHD and academic career in fact. When I think of it now, may be it is a good idea to find out if he is fully supporting himself with these part-time jobs or relying on his parents financially so far.

You ought to know this stuff about him.

At least in the US, it is quite possible (especially in less expensive cities) for a graduate student to be self-supporting and even to have a spouse and children. My husband is a professor, and over the years, I have known many graduate families. In the US, doctoral students almost always have teaching assistantships or research assistantships or some kind of fellowship.

That said, it takes a very focused person to get through a doctoral program with a doctorate in a reasonable amount of time. A lot of people do not make it through or only make it out in 8+ years. Your boyfriend’s past history does not make him a very good candidate for succeeding in graduate school. Also, at least in the US, there is enormous competition for academic jobs. It is not uncommon for a single academic job to attract 300+ applications. The academic job market is for the brave, the lucky, and the really, really smart and hard working–you need to be all of those things at once to get a good job.

So, has your boyfriend looked into the academic job market for his field? You should be able to do a little research on your own and be able to assess if his plans are realistic. It is REALLY sad to find yourself a 40-something with a doctorate and discover that there are no jobs for you. At that age, it’s progressively harder to start a new life.

So, something to think about.

 

[Irishmom2]

I am just wondering why you would be the one giving up your job and family and home to be with this guy…

Why is he not moving to you?

I would be concerned about you going forward with this on so many levels if I were your mother. Your biological clock may be pushing you into thinking this is a good thing when really, you know hardly anything about this guy, and as 1ke said: he does not seem like husband material.