Romans 10: 9 "If you confess with your mouth..."

[sharonshay]

Hi everyone. I really need help responding to someone who is using the quote from Romans as the basis for his argument that all you have to do is confess and you are saved, instantly. There are other verses and ideas I need help with as well. Here is our correspondence.

**Me to him: Or how about the Apostle Paul speaking of salvation in past, present, and future terms?
Past: Eph. 2: 8-9; “… for by grace you have been saved…”
Present: 2Phil. 2:12"… work out your salvation with fear and trembling…"
Future: 2Tim. 2: 12 “…if we persevere we shall also reign with him.”

Why persevere, or “work it out” if salvation is a one-time, past event? Working something out implies a process, not a one-time “event” that takes five minutes to complete. Even the Apostle Peter talks about it as an ongoing Process: 1Pet. 1:9 “… as you attain the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.”**

*His response to me: Salvation is instant. The moment you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you are saved (Romans 10:9,10). It is the sanctification of the saint that is a lifelong process, whereby the Spirit of God keeps removing things from us that are not pleasing to the Lord.

The thief on the Cross was Saved immediately…he didn’t have much time to stop his crucifixion, get baptized, do good deeds, etc…all of these are a RESULT of Salvation, not the CAUSE…*

I have a few ideas about how to respond about the thief on the cross. For ex., the thief was hindered by being on the cross (couldn’t get baptized, etc.) but God was not, and therefore could save him on the spot.

How should I respond to his assertion that salvation is instant and that it’s sanctification that’s a process? I know I could say that St. Paul says it’s our salvation that we should work out-- he doesn’t use the word sanctification. It takes me hours to put my thoughts together, and I’m not eloquent so I really need help. Thank you in advance.

 

[ejb21]

You are probably fighting an up-hill battle. Been there and done that. There will be “terminology” problems, such as the meanings of “salvation”, “justification”, “sanctification”, etc. My experience in these discussions is that catholics can’t use the catholic definition of these terms, “because catholics are wrong”. Then, if you agree to the other terminology you can’t really argue from your beliefs. Yeah, it’s up-hill all the way. Good luck.

 

[imkingdad]

your friend is a Once Saved Always Saved believer. Scripture does not support that Position. Peter & Paul both rebuke it. Jesus clearly states unless you are Baptized by Water & the Spirit you will not see heaven. Jesus also teaches unless you eat my body… (jn Chap 6: 40–) & again at the last supper establishes this.

Likewise Faith comes by hearing. Hearing the word of God. you must repent, then confess but prior to both you must accept the Grace of God & from God & believe that what you have heard is the word of God. Not quite as simple a process as he’d like to have you believe. He has a simpleton Faith, adequate to get him started but not likely to sustain him.

He is not likely to change his mind or even here what you say (at this point in his walk of Faith), since he is more concerned about destroying your Faith than he is about really investigating & growing his own.

Best advice would be to thank him & tell him you are quite comfortable with your Faith and that if he’d like you’ll Pray that he too may grow into the same level of Comfort & understanding of the Word of God that you have. ( that should really tweek him ).

Sometimes its just better to not argue with fools.

Yours in Christ

 

[NHInsider]

You might throw him off his game if you start by agreeing with him. After all, we do acknowledge that the thief on the cross was saved, that very day, by his profession of faith. And we do believe (for example) that a catechumen who dies before baptism is not deprived of salvation.

Really the “salvation” bit is semantic - we believe that our salvation is a process, of which sanctification is a part. They divide the “moment” of salvation from the “process” of sanctification. But as has been pointed out, some of them go on to insist that the “moment” is irrevocable (a really appealing notion, particular for those of us with adult children who have fallen away, but not one that is supportable from Scripture).

This then leads into a discussion of passages like Romans 11:13-21 and Hebrews 10 to 12 and Phillipians 3:12-16 and of course James 2: places where the Scripture writers are pointedly and clearly warning against the sin of presumption, and arguing that we must perservere in faith in order to be “overcomers” cf Rev. 3, where Jesus promises that those who cling to the faith will not be striken from the book of Life (v. 5), which seems to imply at minimum that being striken from the book of Life is possible.

It’s also really important to point out that our understanding does not mean that we lack confidence, or that we wander around in constant fear of “losing” our salvation, as if we could misplace it accidentally. Presumption is a sin, so is despair. We have hope, which means we rely on God’s grace, not on our own strength - but we still have free will, which means we could walk away if we chose to do so - but it would be deliberate (the definition of “mortal sin”).

I’ve been going to one of those Protestant Bible studies for 15 years, and I have repeatedly watched people who have been brought up with OSAS study themselves into the Catholic position by actually interacting with the texts - often with great distress (see my comment above about adult children). If you search CAF for OSAS discussions you’ll find lots more references on the topic.

At the same time of course, we cling to the promise that it is NOT God’s will that any one should perish, that the Good Shepherd will always go in search of the lost sheep. “While there is life, there is hope.”

 

[Robbinson]

I’ve been going to one of those Protestant Bible studies for 15 years, and I have repeatedly watched people who have been brought up with OSAS study themselves into the Catholic position by actually interacting with the texts - often with great distress (see my comment above about adult children). If you search CAF for OSAS discussions you’ll find lots more references on the topic.

At the same time of course, we cling to the promise that it is NOT God’s will that any one should perish, that the Good Shepherd will always go in search of the lost sheep. “While there is life, there is hope.”

I know what you mean

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Kolbe300]

I think I would compile all the scripture you can, a lot of which has been spoken of here, that points to ways in which we can fall from grace. Personally, I would ask him why the process of sanctification (as he understands it) of the Holy Spirit “removing things from us that are not pleasing to the Lord” would cause Paul to advise “fear and trembling.” I’m afraid of plenty of things, God removing things He doesn’t like from me will never be one of them. “Await your salvation with joy and dancing” would seem more appropriate.

I think Matthew 19:16-22 is always good because Jesus is asked the very direct question: “How do I gain eternal life?” Afterall, that is what you are debating. Jesus’ answer is straight forward and it isn’t OSAS. Like people have said, you’ve got yourself an uphill battle for sure. Thanks for fighting it though!

Peace,
Kolbe