Romans 10:9

[HistoryTeacher]

Can someone please help me defend the Catholic position of faith and works against this seemingly *sola fide *verse that is used by many protestants? I think our defense may lie in the entire context or something but just the verse itself makes it hard to argue with Protestants so I’m looking for some help. Karl’s chapter on salvation in Catholicism vs Fundamentalism doesn’t speak much about this verse. I’ll put the verse here: “if you confess 5 with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Thanks!

 

[Fidelis]

I wish I could copy and paste this short apologetics explanation of this verse from St Charles Borromeo’s “Glad You Asked!” page, but it is in pdf format. Here is the link instead:

scborromeo.org/papers/justrom.PDF

 

[Hans_A]

Fidelis:

I wish I could copy and paste this short apologetics explanation of this verse from St Charles Borromeo’s “Glad You Asked!” page, but it is in pdf format. Here is the link instead:

scborromeo.org/papers/justrom.PDF

Just click on the “T” button on the Adobe Acrobat toolbar. Then you can highlight text to copy and paste.

Hans

 

[cestusdei]

You can just point out to them all the other verses they are ignoring. Like James say faith without works is dead. Make them do the explaining.

 

[Steve_M]

That’s what I’ve done in the past. I’m the only Catholic in my family. Everyone else is Southern Baptist. When I point out that they are ignoring the passages they don’t like, the typical response is something like, “If you really believe and have faith, you’ll do … If you don’t do it, you don’t really have faith.” The other reaction I get is they just get mad.

 

[RBushlow]

Steve M:

The other reaction I get is they just get mad.

If they won’t listen to Scripture, there’s nothing you can do but pray for the Holy Spirit to open their eyes and bring them to the Fulness of Faith.

 

[Dan-Man916]

there are several passages that explain that Once Saved Always Saved theology is not taught when one looks at the entire NT of SCripture. Protestants usually hold that Romans 10:9 means that once we believe in our heart and confess with our lips that we are eternally secure in our salvation.

here are several verses that you can look up. I don’t want to go into explaining them now, but read them, and see if you can see how salvation is dependent upon us keeping our part of the bargian by holding on to the grace that we have been freely given.

Galatians 5:4 talks about being severed from Christ and falling away from grace if we follow the Mosaic law as a means to be saved.

Romans 11:21 talks about Christians being cut off from the vine. Those who are already on the vine are cut off. OSAS denies that this is possible.

JOhn 15:1-6 Jesus talks about the vine and branches. If we are believers but do not remain in faith, then we will be cut off.

1Tim 5:8 says that if we do not care for our family, they have DENIED the faith and are worse off than a beleiver. SOmeone cannot deny the faith unless they have already confessed the faith. SO they are beleivers. But if they are now worse off then unbeleivers; we know that unbelievers are not saved; therefore, they who are worse off, have most certianly lost their salvation.

these verses easily debunk Once Saved Always Saved.

 

[Strider]

Apologist John Martignoni has an excellent tape on this, and many other topics.
His web site is www.biblechristiansociety.com, and he is the host of the “Open Lines” call-in show in EWTN on Thursdays.
I would recommend that you get the sola fide tape from him. I guanantee your problem will be solved.

God bless

 

[SteveT]

Point out that “will be saved” is in the future tense, not past. Your being saved is contingent upon believing and confessing, not once, but continuously in the future. If you cease believing, or refuse at some point in time to confess, can you still expect to be saved based on Romans 10:9? The answer is obviously no. The verse only teaches “once saved always saved” if “once a believer, always a believer” is true.

Since this is talking about a process that ends in the future, it is a good launching point to highlight the relationship between faith and works according to the bible. James 2:22 says of Abraham

“You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.”

Faith is completed by works. The relationship between faith and works, in the mind of most Protestants, is linear: faith comes first, then works flow from it. The biblical picture is circular: faith inspires works, works strengthen faith. If you have faith, but don’t put it into works, your faith will die (you will cease to believe) and a dead faith will save no one.

Hope that helps.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Steve,

that’s a good answer!

 

[ayrshirelassi]

what is meant in James about works and faith is that a person can say that they are a Christian but a Christian is supposed to be a new creation. This means that their previous moral and spiritual condition has passed away. See 2nd Corinthians 5:17. Let’s look at Romans 6:6 &7. It says, “And we know that our old being has been put to death with Christ on his cross in order that power of the sinful self might be destroyed,so that we no longer should be the slaves of sin. For when a person dies he is set free from the power of sin.” Before a person becomes a Christian sin has a choke hold on their lives. They do nothing else but serve sin as obedient slaves. Romans 6:2 says"Certainly not! How can we who have died to sin live in it any longer?" Verse 11 of this chapter says," In the same way you are to think of yourselves as dead, so far as sin is concerned, but living in fellowship with God thorough Christ Jesus." The old saying is actions speak louder than words. See 1st John 2:4.The Bible says in James 2:14 says,“My brothers, what good is it for someone to say he has faith (salvation) if his action do not prove it?” Verse 18 of this chapter says in part C," I will show you my faith by my actions." You can’t pray a prayer asking God for salvation and then walk away and the next day live a life serving sin and say that you have salvation. Does this mean that Christians never sin? No. They do commit sin, but that do not life in sin as a lifestyle if they are truly a Christian. You can’t ask God to save your soul and the next day go work as a prostitute and take dope and say I’m a Christian now because I prayed a prayer asking God for salvation. If a person is serious about it God will grant them salvation and their actions will be evidence of their salvation.Romans 5:1a says,“Now that we have been put right with God through faith…” Verse 2 of this chapter says,“He has brought us by faith into this experience, in which we now live.” See James 2:23. This speaks of imputed righteousness."… Abraham believed, adhered to, trusted in, and relied on God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness, he was called God’s friend." You can’t earn salvation.Salvation is a free gift. See Romans 5: 8-10. See Romans 4:1-5 See verse 10 of this chapter. Note that circumcision is a work. Romans 10:9 &10 1st John 1:9

 

[UnityofTrinity]

what is meant in James about works and faith is that a person can say that they are a Christian but a Christian is supposed to be a new creation. This means that their previous moral and spiritual condition has passed away. See 2nd Corinthians 5:17. Let’s look at Romans 6:6 &7. It says, “And we know that our old being has been put to death with Christ on his cross in order that power of the sinful self might be destroyed,so that we no longer should be the slaves of sin. For when a person dies he is set free from the power of sin.” Before a person becomes a Christian sin has a choke hold on their lives. They do nothing else but serve sin as obedient slaves. Romans 6:2 says"Certainly not! How can we who have died to sin live in it any longer?" Verse 11 of this chapter says," In the same way you are to think of yourselves as dead, so far as sin is concerned, but living in fellowship with God thorough Christ Jesus." The old saying is actions speak louder than words. See 1st John 2:4.The Bible says in James 2:14 says,“My brothers, what good is it for someone to say he has faith (salvation) if his action do not prove it?” Verse 18 of this chapter says in part C," I will show you my faith by my actions." You can’t pray a prayer asking God for salvation and then walk away and the next day live a life serving sin and say that you have salvation. Does this mean that Christians never sin? No. They do commit sin, but that do not life in sin as a lifestyle if they are truly a Christian. You can’t ask God to save your soul and the next day go work as a prostitute and take dope and say I’m a Christian now because I prayed a prayer asking God for salvation. If a person is serious about it God will grant them salvation and their actions will be evidence of their salvation.Romans 5:1a says,“Now that we have been put right with God through faith…” Verse 2 of this chapter says,“He has brought us by faith into this experience, in which we now live.” See James 2:23. This speaks of imputed righteousness."… Abraham believed, adhered to, trusted in, and relied on God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness, he was called God’s friend." You can’t earn salvation.Salvation is a free gift. See Romans 5: 8-10. See Romans 4:1-5 See verse 10 of this chapter. Note that circumcision is a work. Romans 10:9 &10 1st John 1:9

Note that at the end, James said clearly and forcefully that “It is not faith alone hat saves, but work also”, which seemingly often ignored by Protestants since they’re so focused in the dead faith verse. Also in Roman Paul is not stating a straight statement: “You’re now will never lose your faith” but simply asked a rhetorical question: “Now that you’re a Christian,how can anyof you lapse back into sin?” It’s not a statement support OSAS but a rhetorical question indicating that a Christian can still sin and lose his salvation. Salvation is a free gift, but it seem that Christian things God will forcefully make us keep this gift or forcefully make us keep this gift. Like the Prodigal Son, we can fall away from that gift as often as we can, but that gift is always open for us.

 

[ayrshirelassi]

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New Living Translation)

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

 

[ayrshirelassi]

Hebrews 9:25,26, 28

25Nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself regularly again and again, as the high priest enters the [Holy of] Holies every year with blood not his own.

26For then would He often have had to suffer [over and over again] since the foundation of the world. But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice [of Himself].

28Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and [d]once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Hebrews 9:25,26, 28

25Nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself regularly again and again, as the high priest enters the [Holy of] Holies every year with blood not his own.

26For then would He often have had to suffer [over and over again] since the foundation of the world. But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice [of Himself].

28Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and [d]once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.

Relevant?

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New Living Translation)

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Salvation is only possible because of God, thus Catholics agree that we’re saved not by faith alone, nor works alone, but by grace alone.But to receives grace,one must have faith, and to strethen that faith, one must act(works) ona daily basis.Like a tree that needed to be watered.

 

[StTommyMore]

Salvation is only possible because of God, thus Catholics agree that we’re saved not by faith alone, nor works alone, but by grace alone.But to receives grace,one must have faith, and to strethen that faith, one must act(works) ona daily basis.Like a tree that needed to be watered.

I think an even better explanation is that we as Catholics believe that we are saved by our response to grace given us by God. Faith itself is possible only because we are given the grace to have faith, as faith is not possible by ourselves. We then respond to that grace, because when grace is properly received, it is acted on by faith which results in works, which in turn, provides more grace–resulting in a snowball effect.

 

[TimothyH]

When I point out that they are ignoring the passages they don’t like, the typical response is something like, “If you really believe and have faith, you’ll do … If you don’t do it, you don’t really have faith.”

Point out what it meant to an ancient Jew to “Have faith” in Jesus. Reference back to the orginal verse quoted by the History Teacher.

“if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Roman subjects would have been required to take an oath of allegiance to the Roman Emperor. That oath would have been broken only under the penalty of death. Remember that Jesus was the messiah but many, even his disciples, thought he was the Davidic king, coming to restore the nation of Israel. To “Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord” back then meant that you were making a public renunciation of your oath of allegiance to the Roman Emperor - it was considered treason.

You were also publically renouncing your Judaic religion. Confessing “Faith in Jesus” meant a public renunciation of Rabbinical authority under which you submitted to the Mosaic law.

“Having faith” in Jesus was more than a feeling you had in your heart. Where I live in the deep south, if you “Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord”, you are likely to get a high-five and an invitation to Friday night fellowship. For the ancients however, having faith in Jesus was a concrete act, it was something you did and carried with it the possibility of the severest consequences. It was likely that, at a miniumum, merchants would no longer do business with you and that your family would ostracise you.

The martyrs testify what it meant to “Have faith” in Jesus back then.

-Tim-

 

[promethius]

what is meant in James about works and faith is that a person can say that they are a Christian but a Christian is supposed to be a new creation. This means that their previous moral and spiritual condition has passed away. See 2nd Corinthians 5:17. Let’s look at Romans 6:6 &7. It says, “And we know that our old being has been put to death with Christ on his cross in order that power of the sinful self might be destroyed,so that we no longer should be the slaves of sin. For when a person dies he is set free from the power of sin.” Before a person becomes a Christian sin has a choke hold on their lives. They do nothing else but serve sin as obedient slaves.

Wrong. So so wrong.

A person can do no RIGHTEOUSNESS without God, but that does not mean that they are beholden to do ONLY sin. Elijah had never heard the name of Christ, but He was so beholden to God that he was glorified in being raised bodily into heaven. Moses never heard the name of Christ, but he was present in heaven on the Mount of Transfiguration. These people did no great sin in their lives.

Further, even atheists can be servants of love and charity, and these things are both graces of God. Even though the atheist does not confess the name of Christ, they still have some intrinsic good in them.

Why? Because we are created in the image of God, and each has the word of God written in their hearts.

Romans 6:2 says"Certainly not! How can we who have died to sin live in it any longer?" Verse 11 of this chapter says," In the same way you are to think of yourselves as dead, so far as sin is concerned, but living in fellowship with God thorough Christ Jesus." The old saying is actions speak louder than words. See 1st John 2:4.The Bible says in James 2:14 says,“My brothers, what good is it for someone to say he has faith (salvation) if his action do not prove it?” Verse 18 of this chapter says in part C," I will show you my faith by my actions." You can’t pray a prayer asking God for salvation and then walk away and the next day live a life serving sin and say that you have salvation.

yes, but that is not the point of faith alone. Faith alone says “works mean nothing”. This is clearly not scriptural. Furthermore, there’s likewise no evidence for the faith leads to works bit that is sometimes used to circumvent the idea that works are required as part of justification. James makes perfectly clear that works and faith go hand in hand TOGETHER.

You can’t earn salvation.Salvation is a free gift. See Romans 5: 8-10. See Romans 4:1-5 See verse 10 of this chapter. Note that circumcision is a work. Romans 10:9 &10 1st John 1:9

I always hate that quote… “salvation is a free gift.” It totally denies the fact that salvation is a bloody sacrifice of Christ, who was tortured and died for us. It’s a costly and painful gift that tears at the heart of anyone who respects what Christ went through for us. Any one who thinks it is free doesn’t realize what their sin cost to be forgiven.

Furthermore, the new covenant completes and fulfills the old. It does not abolish it, it makes it perfect. Christs sacrifice was the PASSOVER sacrifice. In the passover sacrifice, one was REQUIRED to eat the body and blood of the lamb or you were considered to have NO PART in the sacrifice itself. In other words, not partaking of true Communion (aka, a sacrament or a work by which grace is imparted), means one has NOT participated in Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[pablope]

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New Living Translation)

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

why do you forget verse 10:

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Read it all together from vers 8 to 10 and now see and understand what it all says.