Romans 11:25 - "Full Number of Gentiles"

[Vouthon]

What exactly did St. Paul mean by this phrase?

Pope St. Gregory the Great seemed to infer that all gentile nations must be gathered into the Church, in his *Moralia in Iob *(Preface, X, 20):

“After the loss of Job’s possessions, after all his bereavements, after all the suffering of his wounds, after all his angry debates, it is good that he is consoled by twofold repayment. In just this way does the holy church, while it is still in this world, receive twofold reward for the trials it sustains, when all the gentile nations have been brought into its midst, at the end of time, and the church converts even the hearts of the Jews to its cause. Thus it is written, ‘Until the fulness of nations enters and so all Israel is saved.’”

In the Book of Tobit we read of a very similar prediction:

**Tobit 13:11 A bright light will shine forth into the farthest corners of the earth. Many nations will come to you from afar, and inhabitants from all the ends of the earth will come to your holy name. They will bear gifts in their hands for the king of heaven. Generation after generation will give joyful worship to you and honor your name forever and always.

11:5-7 After this they all will return from their exile and will rebuild Jerusalem in splendor; and in it the temple of God will be rebuilt, just as the prophets of Israel have said concerning it. 6 Then the nations in the whole world will all be converted and worship God in truth. They will all abandon their idols, which deceitfully have led them into their error; 7 and in righteousness they will praise the eternal God. All the Israelites who are saved in those days and are truly mindful of God will be gathered together; they will go to Jerusalem and live in safety forever in the land of Abraham, and it will be given over to them. Those who sincerely love God will rejoice, but those who commit sin and injustice will vanish from all the earth.
**

 

[Vouthon]

Typing error: the second paragraph is from chapter 14 of To bit, not 11.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Romans 11:25 refers to the end of the period at which all those destined to come to God from the Gentile nations shall cease. It may have a connection to Luke 21:24 in which Jesus talks about the end or fulfillment of the “times of the Gentiles.” Apparently the Gentiles will begin to lose interest in coming to worship the God of Abraham, even though the way has been made possible through Jesus Christ.

While it is not dogma or even formal doctrine, the last three popes, St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis, have theorized that the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24 may have ended with the events of the Six-Day War. After the Shoah (Holocaust), the Jews were allowed to return to their homeland from which they had been denied access since 135 C.E./A.D., but Jerusalem was not fully under their control until the events of June 1967. Jesus’ prophecy at Luke 21:24 was that the Gentiles would “trample” upon or have control over Jerusalem until this specific time in God’s plan was fulfilled. Since the end of the Six-Day War, the Jews have regained full control of Jerusalem from the Gentiles for the first time in almost 2000 years.

Again, while this has only been hypothesized by popes and theologians, both Catholic and Protestant, and events would have to unfold further before it could be validated, both the “times” for the Gentiles to “trample” Jerusalem in Luke and to come to worship God as mentioned in Romans may be speaking of the same era.

It has been noted especially by the popes that the Gentile nations have become more and more secular since the mid-1960s. Religion is being rejected by more and more, and especially is Christianity being attacked and turned from.

This is not to say that the time for Gentile people to turn to Christ is over and that we might as well close shop and stop preaching the Gospel. But that time will come someday as Romans 11:25 states.

It also has not been established that the hypothesis of connecting these two similar-sounding events can be declared a valid interpretation. Only time will tell.

 

[thistle]

What exactly did St. Paul mean by this phrase?

Pope St. Gregory the Great seemed to infer that all gentile nations must be gathered into the Church, in his *Moralia in Iob *(Preface, X, 20):

In the Book of Tobit we read of a very similar prediction:

Tobit 13:11 A bright light will shine forth into the farthest corners of the earth. Many nations will come to you from afar, and inhabitants from all the ends of the earth will come to your holy name. They will bear gifts in their hands for the king of heaven. Generation after generation will give joyful worship to you and honor your name forever and always.

11:5-7 After this they all will return from their exile and will rebuild Jerusalem in splendor; and in it the temple of God will be rebuilt, just as the prophets of Israel have said concerning it. 6 Then the nations in the whole world will all be converted and worship God in truth. They will all abandon their idols, which deceitfully have led them into their error; 7 and in righteousness they will praise the eternal God. All the Israelites who are saved in those days and are truly mindful of God will be gathered together; they will go to Jerusalem and live in safety forever in the land of Abraham, and it will be given over to them. Those who sincerely love God will rejoice, but those who commit sin and injustice will vanish from all the earth.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 11-15. Have they so stumbled, that they should fall? God forbid. That is, their fall is not irreparable, or so as never to rise again: but by their offending, salvation (through the liberal mercy of God) is come to the Gentiles, that they, the Jews, may be emulous of the Gentiles, and of their happiness, and so may be converted. (Witham) — The nation of the Jews is not absolutely and without remedy cast off for ever; but in part only (many thousands of them having been at first converted) and for a time: which fall of theirs God has been pleased to turn to the good of the Gentiles. (Challoner) — How much more the fulness of them? As if he should say, if the obstinacy of so many Jews seem to be an occasion upon which God, whose mercy calls whom he pleaseth, hath bestowed the riches of his grace on other nations; and while the glory of the Jews, the elect people of God, has been diminished, the Gentiles have been made happy: how much more glorious will be the fulness of them? that is, according to the common interpretation, will be the re-establishment and conversion of the Jews hereafter, before the end of the world? See St. Chrysostom, om. ith. p. 164; St. Hilary, in Ps. lviii; St. Jerome, in chap. iii. Osee. Habacuc iii.; St. Augustine, lib. xx. de Civ. Dei. chap. xxix. — Then (ver. 15.) the receiving of them into the Church, and their conversion to Christ, shall be like life from the dead, when the Jewish nation in general, shall rise from the death of sin, and their hardened infidelity, to the life of faith and grace. These things I speak to you, Gentiles, to honour and comply with my ministry of being your apostle: yet endeavouring at the same time, if by a pious emulation, or by any other way, I may be able to bring any of my flesh, or of my brethren, the Jews, to be saved by the faith of Christ. (Witham)

 

[Vouthon]

While it is not dogma or even formal doctrine, the last three popes, St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis, have theorized that the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24 may have ended with the events of the Six-Day War. After the Shoah (Holocaust), the Jews were allowed to return to their homeland from which they had been denied access since 135 C.E./A.D., but Jerusalem was not fully under their control until the events of June 1967. Jesus’ prophecy at Luke 21:24 was that the Gentiles would “trample” upon or have control over Jerusalem until this specific time in God’s plan was fulfilled. Since the end of the Six-Day War, the Jews have regained full control of Jerusalem from the Gentiles for the first time in almost 2000 years.

Hmm…based upon the Patristics, I have grown accustomed to understanding “Jerusalem” as a metaphor for the Church. Usually, the Fathers interpreted prophecies pertaining to the “Holy City” to signify the Church.

Jesus told us in the Gospel of John that under the New Covenant believers no longer worship God in the earthly city of Jerusalem but “in spirit and truth”.

I feel this may preclude any literalistic relating of this prophecy to the actual city of Jerusalem as a geographical location. This is no longer of signal importance.

It is the Church, the Body of Christ, the true temple of God that is of significance IMHO.

I personally would have a difficult time relating this prophecy to a secular event like the Israeli victory in the Six Day War. I think it is perhaps a little tenuous to draw a connection between a battle by a nation-state over a plot of land, however sacred, with something as eschatologically important to the divine plan as the full number of Gentiles being gathered in so that “all Israel” can finally be summoned into the bosom of the Church.

If we spiritually interpret Jerusalem to signify the Church, might not the “trampling” simply refer to Gentile dominance over the Church and a flood of converts from the Gentile world?

St. Paul predicts that the final conversion of the Jews en masse to Faith in Jesus as the Messiah will be like “new life” for the entire Church filled with unimaginable riches, i.e.

**Romans 11:12

Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! **

**Romans 11:15

For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead. **

So it seems that something momentous is in store for humanity as a whole from this influx of Jews, before the Parousia and the Great Apostasy, into the Church.

The Jews, it seems, will then somehow lead or become especially prominent in the life of the Church just as the Gentiles have done for 2,000 years. St. Paul prophesies that this will bring immense blessings for the whole Church and world, far more so than the era of Gentile predominance which itself has been inestimably “rich”.

It has been noted especially by the popes that the Gentile nations have become more and more secular since the mid-1960s. Religion is being rejected by more and more, and especially is Christianity being attacked and turned from.

I think you might, possibly, be conflating two chronologically distinct events: the “full number of Gentiles” which precedes the conversion of the Jews and the Great Apostasy from the faith which comes after it.

The apostasy does not precede the Jewish “influx” according to most outlines of eschatology but follows in its wake.

The Apostasy or Rebellion is the final trial that the Church must face before Christ comes in glory.

Loss of interest in the faith in Europe and the West is a chimera, a freak, a minor tribulation but not the Great “end-time” Apostasy or anything even close too it. Christianity is gaining ground in Asia and Africa.

To me, the full number of Gentiles seems to indicate that, at least, a majority of Gentiles will adhere to Christianity. Thus far, such has never happened. China, India, Japan and many other nations have never possessed Christian majorities. The entire Islamic world as well. The Age of the Gentile has barely begun and has for far too long been bound up with Europe. No longer.

I think this needs to happen before God, through a miracle of His own and not by human agency, will draw the Jewish People into the Church as a corporate whole.

So, in other words, I strongly feel that we are a long way off from any of this being fulfilled.

 

[Vouthon]

See:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/endtimes.htm

**The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
​

1. the “full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles” (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)

1. a final trial of the Church “in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.

1. Christ’s victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by “all Israel.”

Approved Catholic mystics (Venerables, Blessed and Saints, approved apparitions) throw considerable light on this order, by prophesying a minor apostasy and tribulation toward the end of the world, after which will occur the reunion of Christians. Only later will the entire world fall away from Christ (the great apostasy) and the personal Antichrist arise and the Tribulation of the End occur.

Although this is not Catholic doctrine, arising as it does from private revelation, it conforms to what is occurring in our time, especially in light of Our Lady of Fátima’s promise of an “Era of Peace.” This “Triumph of the Immaculate Heart” (other saints have spoken of a social reign of Jesus Christ when Jesus will reign in the hearts of men) would seem to occur prior to the rise of the Antichrist. The optimism of the Pope for the “New Evangelization” and a “Civilization of Love” in the Third Millennium of Christianity fits here, as well. This would place us, therefore, in the period just before the events spoken of in the Catechism, that is, on the verge of the evangelization of the entire world. Other interpretations are possible, but none seem to fit the facts as well, especially when approved mystics are studied, instead of merely alleged ones.**

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Hmm…based upon the Patristics, I have grown accustomed to understanding “Jerusalem” as a metaphor for the Church. Usually, the Fathers interpreted prophecies pertaining to the “Holy City” to signify the Church.

Jesus told us in the Gospel of John that under the New Covenant believers no longer worship God in the earthly city of Jerusalem but “in spirit and truth”.

I feel this may preclude any literalistic relating of this prophecy to the actual city of Jerusalem as a geographical location. This is no longer of signal importance.

It is the Church, the Body of Christ, the true temple of God that is of significance IMHO.

I personally would have a difficult time relating this prophecy to a secular event like the Israeli victory in the Six Day War. I think it is perhaps a little tenuous to draw a connection between a battle by a nation-state over a plot of land, however sacred, with something as eschatologically important to the divine plan as the full number of Gentiles being gathered in so that “all Israel” can finally be summoned into the bosom of the Church.

If we spiritually interpret Jerusalem to signify the Church, might not the “trampling” simply refer to Gentile dominance over the Church and a flood of converts from the Gentile world?

St. Paul predicts that the final conversion of the Jews en masse to Faith in Jesus as the Messiah will be like “new life” for the entire Church filled with unimaginable riches, i.e.

Romans 11:12

Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Romans 11:15

For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead.

So it seems that something momentous is in store for humanity as a whole from this influx of Jews, before the Parousia and the Great Apostasy, into the Church.

The Jews, it seems, will then somehow lead or become especially prominent in the life of the Church just as the Gentiles have done for 2,000 years. St. Paul prophesies that this will bring immense blessings for the whole Church and world, far more so than the era of Gentile predominance which itself has been inestimably “rich”.

I think you might, possibly, be conflating two chronologically distinct events: the “full number of Gentiles” which precedes the conversion of the Jews and the Great Apostasy from the faith which comes after it.

The apostasy does not precede the Jewish “influx” according to most outlines of eschatology but follows in its wake.

The Apostasy or Rebellion is the final trial that the Church must face before Christ comes in glory.

Loss of interest in the faith in Europe and the West is a chimera, a freak, a minor tribulation but not the Great “end-time” Apostasy or anything even close too it. Christianity is gaining ground in Asia and Africa.

To me, the full number of Gentiles seems to indicate that, at least, a majority of Gentiles will adhere to Christianity. Thus far, such has never happened. China, India, Japan and many other nations have never possessed Christian majorities. The entire Islamic world as well. The Age of the Gentile has barely begun and has for far too long been bound up with Europe. No longer.

I think this needs to happen before God, through a miracle of His own and not by human agency, will draw the Jewish People into the Church as a corporate whole.

So, in other words, I strongly feel that we are a long way off from any of this being fulfilled.

Do understand that I am discussing a HYPOTHETICAL theory of the connection between two verses as raised by current popes. Pope Benedict XVI wrote about this possible connection at length:

ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/documents-and-statements/roman-catholic/pope-benedict-xvi/927-b16-2011mar10gentiles

Also interpretation of some of the things you have mentioned has changed over the past half century and more since the days of the Shoah (Holocaust). The Holy See mentioned this in its study released early this century regarding the need for correcting previous views of the place Jews hold in the Scriptures and in relation to the Church:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html

In December of 2015 the Holy See published a document recognizing that physical Israel is not to be viewed as replaced by the Church, and therefore it is not always correct to view Scriptural references to Jerusalem and the Jews as exclusively applying to the Church. How the Jews will be saved in the end as a whole may never fit previous views of a mass conversion, and until then it cannot be said that God is not dealing with fleshly Israel as his people or that his covenant with the Jews has or can be or will ever be revoked:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html

None of these views come from me, nor is my disclosure of them on this forum to be mistaken as if what I’ve written is representative of my personal opinions or interpretations.

Unlike many who write on forums, I am rarely expressing my personal convictions unless they apply to the subject. More often than not I am not even offering my opinion nor am I concerned with revealing my own or adopting personal views of others. Though I am a Hebrew Catholic, I do not claim to be the interpreter of these views from the Holy See in the documents I cite, but I am puzzled by how many Catholics are unaware of this monumental change and have never even heard of these documents let alone read them.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Post script: This will be my last posting for some time due to complications caused by my early-onset Parkinson’s disease. These past few days have been great. Sorry that I will not be readily available for further discussion.

 

[Vouthon]

Post script: This will be my last posting for some time due to complications caused by my early-onset Parkinson’s disease. These past few days have been great. Sorry that I will not be readily available for further discussion.

I am so sorry to hear about your Parkinsons!

I find your posts to be very informed, thorough and enlightening. It is indeed a great shame but your well-being is paramount.

Rest assured you are in my prayers.

 

[Vouthon]

In December of 2015 the Holy See published a document recognizing that physical Israel is not to be viewed as replaced by the Church, and therefore it is not always correct to view Scriptural references to Jerusalem and the Jews as exclusively applying to the Church. How the Jews will be saved in the end as a whole may never fit previous views of a mass conversion, and until then it cannot be said that God is not dealing with fleshly Israel as his people or that his covenant with the Jews has or can be or will ever be revoked:
.

Indeed but when the Church refers to ‘Israel according to the flesh’ as still being a covenanted people, She is referring to Jews not to the secular state of Israel - is all I’m saying. I’m not preaching hard supersessionism here.

Of course His promises to “Israel” are not revocable even now but I would be very hesitant to equate “Israel” (the Jewish People) with the actions of a secular state, albeit a Jewish one.

I think we must differentiate between Israel as a modern state and Jews in general.

God has a covenant with the Jews that he has not revoked, not with the state of Israel founded in 1948.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Thank you for the prayers. I will try to catch up from time to time as my health warrants, so it is not necessarily a permanent goodbye, but one does have to “pick” the battles when one’s resources becoming strikingly limited.