Romans 3:10 & Mary (Edited Title)

[Mberg3]

I have a lot of Protestant members telling me that this verse makes it impossible for Mary to have lived a sinless life because the “not even one” makes it clear that there is no exception. How can I defend the Catholic position in an intelligent way. ( I’ld research it but I do not have the time right now)
Thanks

 

[Tietjen]

I have a lot of Protestant members telling me that this verse makes it impossible for Mary to have lived a sinless life because the “not even one” makes it clear that there is no exception. How can I defend the Catholic position in an intelligent way. ( I’ld research it but I do not have the time right now)
Thanks

Luke writes that Mary is full of grace, highly favored. Lk 1:37: “For with God nothing shall be impossible.” She is the “woman” of Gen 3:15 whose enmity with Satan and sin is absolute. She is the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 25:11-21) made to hold the living Word of God: a holy tabernacle made not of the purest gold, but of the purest flesh. St. Paul is emphasizing the universal aspect of sin extending to Jews and Gentiles alike. Babies have not sinned; those born with severe mental handicaps have not sinned; Adam and Eve before the fall had not sinned; Jesus never sinned. These are some exceptions that fall outside St. Paul’s condemnation. Mary is another.

 

[Mberg3]

Luke writes that Mary is full of grace, highly favored. Lk 1:37: “For with God nothing shall be impossible.” She is the “woman” of Gen 3:15 whose enmity with Satan and sin is absolute. She is the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 25:11-21) made to hold the living Word of God: a holy tabernacle made not of the purest gold, but of the purest flesh. St. Paul is emphasizing the universal aspect of sin extending to Jews and Gentiles alike. Babies have not sinned; those born with severe mental handicaps have not sinned; Adam and Eve before the fall had not sinned; Jesus never sinned. These are some exceptions that fall outside St. Paul’s condemnation. Mary is another.

For one, I think that it wasn’t specifically Paul’s condemnation because he was quoting the Psalms (i may be wrong here). But that is a minor point.

They would state that although babies do not sin, that the ARE born with original sin and thus would fall under Paul’s statement. The exception of Christ is allowed because his divine nature allows him to be above humanity in a special way. The person who I talked to would state that everyone besides Jesus was born with original sin even babies and handicapped members of society.

I have tried to stated that Paul is simply emphasizing that universal nature of sin (both Jew and Greek), but the person I have talked to said that it is nonsensical to state that “not even one” allows for an exception of any kind. As they are bible-believers the claim that Luke and Exodus are claims of sinlessness are too far out of reach to their sensibilities. Is there a more clear defense of this that you can think of that would make the verse more clear in context (because it was a quoted passage).
Thanks

 

[Roman63]

Well, I don’t know how intelligent this is, but here are my thoughts. Paul is using hyperbole when he says, “None is righteous, no, not one.” He is doing so for dramatic effect and every logically thinking Christian (Catholic or Protestant) should understand this. Paul continues on to say that “no one does good” and “their throat is an open grave” and “the venom of asps is under their lips” and “their mouth is full of curses and bitterness . . .” Really?! even children, sweet old grandmothers, and those gentle people (whom live in every age) who can’t hurt a fly?! Paul must either be using hyperbole or is delusional. No! He is purposefully using a broad brush to get his point across. And because he says in verse 12 that “. . . together they have gone wrong,” I believe Paul is saying both Jews and Greeks in general and as a whole (not every single person) have gone astray from God. In verses 13 and 14 he says “Their throat” (collective) and “Their mouth” (again, collective), as though they are speaking with a collective mouth and throat and not individual mouths and throats. Paul, I truly believe, is not speaking about individual persons, but people in general. Our Mother is safe.

Roman63

 

[Mberg3]

Well, I don’t know how intelligent this is, but here are my thoughts. Paul is using hyperbole when he says, “None is righteous, no, not one.” He is doing so for dramatic effect and every logically thinking Christian (Catholic or Protestant) should understand this. Paul continues on to say that “no one does good” and “their throat is an open grave” and “the venom of asps is under their lips” and “their mouth is full of curses and bitterness . . .” Really?! even children, sweet old grandmothers, and those gentle people (whom live in every age) who can’t hurt a fly?! Paul must either be using hyperbole or is delusional. No! He is purposefully using a broad brush to get his point across. And because he says in verse 12 that “. . . together they have gone wrong,” I believe Paul is saying both Jews and Greeks in general and as a whole (not every single person) have gone astray from God. In verses 13 and 14 he says “Their throat” (collective) and “Their mouth” (again, collective), as though they are speaking with a collective mouth and throat and not individual mouths and throats. Paul, I truly believe, is not speaking about individual persons, but people in general. Our Mother is safe.

Roman63

Like I have said before, Paul is quoting from Psalms 14:3
"They have all (A)turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is (B)no one who does good, not even one. "
I assume that Paul is quoting this passage to get a point across. The people he was writing to obviously would have known what he was quoting and would understand the implied meaning. I was wondering if anyone had more knowledge of what particular meaning this verse had because I feel as though the context is important to reach the meaning.
I think that the other verses (Ie. that noone does good, etc) is a good place to start and it makes sense. I just don’t think I will get them off of the “not even one” quote without a compelling argument.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I have a lot of Protestant members telling me that this verse makes it impossible for Mary to have lived a sinless life because the “not even one” makes it clear that there is no exception. How can I defend the Catholic position in an intelligent way. ( I’ld research it but I do not have the time right now)
Thanks

Taken literally, and out of context of the whole Bible, that would also mean that Jesus Christ could not have been righteous either, since he was a man, he falls within the ambit of what is written in Romans 3:10.

The Bible never says that The Blessed Virgin Mary was sinless. Protestants are not wrong to point that out. They win on that point, if that is the point being argued.

But, of course, the issue for Catholics is: Does the Bible rule out the possibility that Mary was sinless.

The sinlessness of Mary was first announced in Catholic Tradition. Whether the writers of the New Testament gave any thought to the issue of Mary’s sinlessness is something we can’t know.

I would tell a Protestant that Romans 3:10 taken literally and read out of context of the rest of Scripture would mean that Jesus was a sinner too. Then I would tell a Protestant that a Catholic, for good and logical reasons, insists that every verse of Sacred Scripture must be read no only in the context of the rest of Sacred Scripture, but also in the contest of Sacred Tradition.

If there were no Sacred Tradition to take into consideration, if all we had was the Bible, then I think we’d all have to become Protestants and deny that Mary could be sinless.

But, we do have Sacred Tradition. All Christians had it until Martin Luther began his movement of rejection of Sacred Tradition.

So, then, I’d say the “argument” with your Protestant friend shifts to whether a Christian is justified in giving the “assent of faith” to Sacred Tradition as defined by the Catholic Church (and by the Easter Orthodox churches too).

But I guess you already knew that.

Protestants are right about one thing. There is no hint in the New Testament that early Christians like the Apostle Paul or St. Peter had any thing like a prayer devotion the Blessed Virgin Mary. I’ve heard that the reason for this was that she was not yet deceased or assumed from this world. But, I’m not sure that is an adequate answer.

It is hard to imagine St. Paul ever kneeling before a statue of any person and praying to that person. Jews just could not stand such acts! Protestants are right about that. The disciple Stephen is martyred in the Book of Acts in the New Testament, and there is no record of anyone in those times praying to him for him to intercede for people on earth.

So, I side with those who say that the practice of devotion to saints began later in Church history, perhaps in the A.D. 200s or thereabout. But, even so, I hold that the development of this devotional practice, though not taught and practiced by the 12 apostles, is nevertheless in accordance with the Will and plan of Almighty God.

Even so, I don’t think Protestants should be condemned or rejected for having no such devotional practices, and as I understand the teachings of Vatican II, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, God does not withhold any graces or Heaven from Protestants for their lack of devotions to Mary or other saints, provided that they are sincere in their view, and I think all agree that they generally are totally sincere.

But what about when Protestants condemn and reject us for our devotional practices to saints? We should thank God, since though our Protestants are wrong about that, they are right that we are sinners in need of the mercy of God. We are all sinners, as Romans 3:10 teaches. We are always wise to welcome insults and criticism, since these are wonderful opportunities to develop the Humility that will make God love us and bless us all the more.

Matthew 5:10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

Anyway, I’m sure you are tired of my blah-blah-blah by now. Me too. Bye bye.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

I have a lot of Protestant members telling me that this verse makes it impossible for Mary to have lived a sinless life because the “not even one” makes it clear that there is no exception. How can I defend the Catholic position in an intelligent way. ( I’ld research it but I do not have the time right now)
Thanks

I thought a good response to this was “no one, even Christ?” Once you established exceptions to the rule, the argument just becomes a joke.

 

[Tietjen]

If there were no Sacred Tradition to take into consideration, if all we had was the Bible, then I think we’d all have to become Protestants and deny that Mary could be sinless.

But, we do have Sacred Tradition. All Christians had it until Martin Luther began his movement of rejection of Sacred Tradition.

The sad thing here is that even Luther believed believed in the sinlessness of Mary.

“Mary also freely ascribes all to God’s grace, not to her merit. For though she was without sin, yet that grace was far too great for her to deserve it in any way. How should a creature deserve to become the Mother of God? Though certain scribblers make much ado about her worthiness for such motherhood, I prefer to believe her rather than them. She says her low estate was regarded by God, not thereby rewarding her for anything she had done, but, “He has done great things for me,” He has done this of His own accord without any doing of mine. For never in all her life did she think to become the Mother of God, still less did she prepare or make herself meet for it. The tidings took her all unaware, as Luke reports (Luke 1:29). Merit, however, is not unprepared for its reward, but deliberately seeks and awaits it.”

Alas, as time moves forward and things continue to evolve, so too does Protestantism.

 

[WesleyF]

I have a lot of Protestant members telling me that this verse makes it impossible for Mary to have lived a sinless life because the “not even one” makes it clear that there is no exception. How can I defend the Catholic position in an intelligent way. ( I’ld research it but I do not have the time right now)
Thanks

As others have pointed out, this done not mean every person without exception. Otherwise what about all those people who in the Bible who are called righteous? For eg. Simeon (Luke 2:25), John the baptist (Mark 6:20), Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:6), etc.

 

[pablope]

I have a lot of Protestant members telling me that this verse makes it impossible for Mary to have lived a sinless life because the “not even one” makes it clear that there is no exception. How can I defend the Catholic position in an intelligent way. ( I’ld research it but I do not have the time right now)
Thanks

First ask the, if they believe everything in the Bible is true…and nothing in the Bible contradicts itself…they will most likely agree with you…then show them this passage from Luke 1…

5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.

So if Rom 3 says all have sinned…how come here, the Bible say Zechariah and Elizabeth are righteous in the sight of God…and followed Him blamelessly…so is the Bible contradicting itself?

 

[Farsight001]

Context. Tell them to go back to the beginning of the book of Romans and start from there.

Paul was writing a letter to the Romans specifically and he was telling them, specifically, that they were being rotten and awful and twisting Christ’s message and not following “the way” as it was called, properly. “There is no one righteous, not even one” among the people Paul was writing to, not every man, woman, and child who ever lived.

Supplement this explanation with verses that blatantly call people righteous in the bible. Genesis 6:9, referring to Noah, Deuteronomy 33:19 referring to a whole group of people. Acts 24:15, referring to the deceased righteous. There are literally hundreds of verses talking about righteous men, and actually using the very word “righteous” to refer to them.

 

[King_Lazy]

Whenever presented with a single line from Scripture, 95% of the time, you’ll find the answer if you read on…

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

So is there no-one who is righteous? “No-one who does good, not even one”? Is there no one at all who seeks God? Are our mouths all full of cursing and bitterness?

No. Of course not. As someone mentioned before, there are many times people are called righteous in the Bible. What Paul was describing there is the state of man without grace. We really are nothing without grace. All of us would be very much like what Paul describes without God’s grace working within us. It is not our own doing that elevates us above that level, but it’s God’s work in us, insofar as we do not impede it.

So grace is the answer.

And you know who was “full of grace”?

I’ll let you answer that one.

 

[Tietjen]

For one, I think that it wasn’t specifically Paul’s condemnation because he was quoting the Psalms (i may be wrong here). But that is a minor point.

No, it’s not really a minor point. He was using Psalms 14, which does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God. So, if your friend is attempting to use St. Paul’s reference to this verse, there exists a problem. If your friend believes that Psalms 53 is the source of St. Paul’s words, “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.” So either way, this cannot be seen as proof that Mary sinned.

They would state that although babies do not sin, that the ARE born with original sin and thus would fall under Paul’s statement. The exception of Christ is allowed because his divine nature allows him to be above humanity in a special way. The person who I talked to would state that everyone besides Jesus was born with original sin even babies and handicapped members of society.

I have tried to stated that Paul is simply emphasizing that universal nature of sin (both Jew and Greek), but the person I have talked to said that it is nonsensical to state that “not even one” allows for an exception of any kind. As they are bible-believers the claim that Luke and Exodus are claims of sinlessness are too far out of reach to their sensibilities. Is there a more clear defense of this that you can think of that would make the verse more clear in context (because it was a quoted passage).
Thanks

Well, all I can do is point out a logical pro argument that gives me comfort in this situation. In Luke 18:19 we can see that Jesus says that, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt 12:35 Jesus also says, “The good man out of his good treasure…” This is an example that should indicate to Bible believing Christians that each individual verse should not be taken as the absolute literal “end all and be all” of a given subject. With that in mind, I can very easily accept that God would want His Son born of an uncontaminated vessel. Jesus, who is good, did not come from a tainted pool. Therefore, I accept that Mary was protected by God from original sin at her conception.

 

[Mberg3]

Thanks for all the help.
I know that who I am talking to is a very staunch protestant, and so I can only hope that by showing how ridiculous taking the rest of the quotations as literally as the first one is. I am not sure that will convince them, but I guess it is not my job to convert those who do not want to listen. I’m still open to any other insight on the passage that someone might offer.

 

[Mberg3]

I would also like some insight into Romans 5:12

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Bible never says that The Blessed Virgin Mary was sinless. Protestants are not wrong to point that out. They win on that point, if that is the point being argued.

Genesis 3:15 states that the enmity between Jesus and the devil (meaning the total absence of sin in Christ) applies to His Mother as well. So the Bible is quite clear that Mary is without sin.

Paul does not mean to contradict the Old Testament when he says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God in Rom 3:23. Otherwise there would be no explanation to why Enoch and Elijah escaped the wages of sin (death) and were raptured into the glory of God without dying. See
Genesis 5:24 and 2 Kings 2:11.

Not incidentally to Her sinlessness, Mary was also raptured (assumed) into Heaven as alluded to in Revelation 12.

 

[Farsight001]

I would also like some insight into Romans 5:12

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-

Mary’s not a man.

 

[Tietjen]

I would also like some insight into Romans 5:12

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-

Did death come to every single man, women, and child? Were any simply “taken up” body and soul to be with God? Don’t Protestants believe that when Christ returns that all the Christians alive at that time will be called up to meet Him (body & soul)? Will those that experience this have lived sinless lives?

 

[trout]

As others have pointed out, this done not mean every person without exception. Otherwise what about all those people who in the Bible who are called righteous? For eg. Simeon (Luke 2:25), John the baptist (Mark 6:20), Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:6), etc.

The Angel Gabriel greeted Mary Thus “Hail full of Grace, the Lord is With thee” If Mary had any sin at all she would not have been greeted as such. At this point of her life there was no Baptism. Yes she went on to a much longer life after our Blessed Lord rose from the dead. If one only considers all the trials and torments our Blessed mother sustained and in addition being assumed bodily into Heaven, then it is pretty obvious she was without sin. I suggest we all offer our daily prayers, Mass. Benediction and penance for all non believers of the true faith in union with our existing intentions. Jesus said “Peter your the rock upon which i will build my church” etc. Church, not Church’s. Council to God and in due time you will get the perfect lasting advice. All my love from this Aussie tyke, to all.

 

[WesleyF]

I would also like some insight into Romans 5:12

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-

Actually, the literal rendering of this verse is -

“Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.”

So this verse is not a reference to personal sin, but rather it is a reference to original sin. We have all mysteriously sinned in the sin of Adam.

If the verse is translated as “because all sinned”, then it makes no sense, because there are those who die in the womb or those who die just after birth without committing any sins.

Please see article 3 over here - newadvent.org/summa/2081.htm