Romans 3:23 vs Immaculate Conception

[alvin77]

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Remember that not everything was written in the Bible, that why Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be sent to continually guide and teach the Church throughout the journey in this world.
That is why the Cjurch was given the power to bind and loss and whatever She declared we must believe and have faith that it is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

God bless.
alvin

 

[Seraphim25]

Another thing, Mary was praised by Gabriel as being found in favor with God…if she had any sin and could not be reconciled to Him without His Son’s sacrifice, how could she have favor with Him?

She couldn’t be “full of grace” and have sin simultaneously. It’s impossible. Two objects and/or definitions cannot occupy the same space.

Sin and God’s grace cannot occupy Mary. She was either a born sinner or she was (as was the Ark of the originial covenant) free of all blemish.

Unless you’re implying that God would allow His Son to pass through a sinful womb.

Besides, Jesus put it best when He said that nothing good can come out of anything that is bad. If He is good, where He came from had to be good as well.

Remember, Jesus told us to judge a tree by it’s fruit, right? A good tree produces a good fruit, a rotten tree produces a rotten fruit and cannot produce a good fruit.

Which is Jesus to you?
A good fruit or a rotten fruit?

Luke 1:42
“…Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”

Many of the prophets were named “found favor with God” Enoch, Noah,.Also, one of the apostles in acts was found full of grace… Finding favor doesn’t imply sinlessness it implies that this person at the heart is devoted to the living God.
Thier are two types of sin First original sin because of Adam and Eve. Origniall sin is what caused the speration from Man to God. Thus ALL have sinned and ALL fall short to the glory of God.Secondly, their is personal sin which according to Jewish theology; at and after the age of thirteen you were responsible from personal sin.
Mary had original sin but found no personal sin in Mary. Therefore Jesus himself took on sinful nature but no sin was found in him. Romans chapter 8 1 "Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law weekend by flesh was powerless to do, this God has done: By sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, He condemned sin in the flesh so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us. Who live not according to the flesh by of the spirit.
This supports the whole theme of the entirety of the bible not just a few passages here and there.

Even the ark itself was created by the hands of sinful man.  Therefore the word of God manifested in the hands of sinful man so that by the power of the holy spirit he would bring about sinlessness by his sacrifice on the cross.

 Also in the OT God looks about the face of the earth and says LO, their is not one who can do my work...NO not ONE who can fulfill it. Thus says the Lord God of Israel. I myself will do it. After those days I the Lord will remember your sins no more.

To imagine Mary has "perfect" and sin cast out from her would indeed imply that Mary would not need Jesus. For Jesus came for the sick not for the healthy. Just as you don't go to the doctors unless their is something wrong with you.

Mary is indeed blessed amongst all women and holy is the fruit of thy womb. However, God chose Mary to conceive not by what she had done but because she was the perfect vessel for Gods will. I believe that Mary had no personal sin but by the power of the Holy spirit and her YES to God at that moment could have freed her from original sin as well. Though I am more inclined to choose freed from personal sin and then after Jesus sacrifice freed ALL of us in whom believe in his name from sin to death. Thanks be to God in the highest.

 

[morelia92]

Simply put, the Blessed Mother “accepted” Christ when she said YES!

Our Omnipotent God knew this ahead of time and although she was conceived in a natural way…she was set apart at conception.

This is how I have had it explained to me. In addition, the preevangelism of James (I think) which is NOT a book in the Bible, but was written by Christians, talks more about Mary.

I believe that it was said in the Sacred Scriptures that there were things NOT written down.

Anywho, that is my thoughts.
I am interested in reading more of yours!

 

[loscampos]

Genesis 3:14-15 enmity between Mary and Satan. Enmity means hostility between enemies (hatred). If you sin than aren’t you taking Satan’s side. If god put enmity between mary and satan then how can you say that she ever sinned. You will here in response to this Romans 3:9-12; Paul is quoting the old testament, as it is written. (No one does good not even one). Romans 3:23, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore Mary had to have sinned, really? Paul is quoting from the old testament in Rom 3:23; Psalms 14:1-5 “ there is none that does good, no not one” There are evil doers who do not good, and then there are the righteous. Only talking about those evil doers, if it was talking about all people then how could it talk about the generation of the righteous a verse later? If all have gone wrong then there are no righteous. Talking about the burden of original sin and not all men sinning, exceptions are made for infants and young children because we know that they have not actually committed a sin. Luke 1:6, john’s parents were walking with all righteousness and were blameless, how would this fit with all men have sinned? Luke 1:15 John the Baptist was filled with the holy spirit even from his mothers womb, Can one who is filled with the holy spirit their entire life, even before he is born commit sin? Luke 1:28 “Hail full of Grace,” Mary is full of grace even before she was pregnant. Luke 1:37 for with god nothing is impossible. Are there others in the bible who were without sin?

Revelation 14:3-5; “In their mouth no lie was found for they are spotless.”

Romans 6; if the wage of sin is death; then Enoch and Elijah must not have ever sinned because they never died. Enoch , Hebrew 11:5, never died, relates to Genesis 5:24. Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11. Paul could not have been talking about all men without exception.

 

[Static]

I need some help reconciling Romans 3:23 “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” and the Immaculate Conception.

Mary was conceived without original sin - how does that jive with “all have sinned”?

This is a standard Fundamentalist Bible verse - I need some help defending the faith.

God Bless you during the Christmas Octave!

…

Hey DM,
This might be somewhat repetitious because I did not have the time to read everyones posts due to the late start on catching this thread, sorry.

Rom 3:23 is talking about personal ( actual ) sin not original sin. We don’t get into original sin until chapter 5.

St. Paul just told these Judaisers that they were no different than the gentiles ( considered sinners ) This would have been a shock to them. They thought that just by circumcision, once they entered into to the covenant, that there was no way that they could ever fall from grace. Sounds kinda familiar to modern day OSAS, doesn’t it. ( All one has to do is believe & heaven is yours no matter what )

      One would have to ask does all mean everybody ? Nope ! Did Jesus sin ? How about a 6 month old baby that dies ? How about someone severely mentally retarded ? Is it possible for any of them to sin ?

Just like the way that people interpret Rom 3:10ff. If you read the whole Psalm (14) you see that these people that don't seek God & don't do good are persecuting God's people ( vss. 3 & 4 )

If we look at Acts 17:27 we would have scripture contradicting scripture. Could this be so ? We do indeed seek God.

If we look at 1 Tim 2:4, God wills all to be saved. Are all going to be saved ? ( Mt 7:21 )

If we look at 1 Pet 3:9, God wills that none should perish but that all come to repentance. Will all come to repentance ?

Jesus would of sinned & probably would of been stoned by disrespecting His mother in public by calling her woman. In context He called her woman for a reason ( Gen 3:15 ) Eve did not get her name until the fall of man, before that she was known as the woman. What state of grace was the woman created in ?

Hopefully these little tidbits can be of some help to you. If not, just keep asking questions. My experience out here is that there are many knowledgeable folks of the faith that will be more than happy to help.

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )