Romans 3:23

[christmary4ever]

Although I believe inthe Immaculate Conception,
I have some trouble refuting Rom 3:23 which states
that evrybody sinned. My colleagues want Bible
text to convince them of this doctrine.

Does anyone know of any?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Check out Psalm 14 which says first that “all are depraved, all have left the path, not a good man is left, not even one” to immediately follow with, “will the evildoers not understand, they eat up my people as though they were eating bread?”

OBVIOUSLY, ‘all’ does not mean ‘all’. . .else who are God’s people whom the evil and depraved are persecuting?

And of course you can always say that Mary wasn’t a man but a woman (nothing about all WOMEN sinning, right?)

And also, since when does everything have to be found in the Bible? We know that everything Jesus said and did was NOT in the Bible. . .we have Oral Tradition.

And for good measure, ask them if they are such sticklers for insisting that “all” means “all” without exception, what about Jesus (who is fully man as well as fully God). . .and why they don’t accept that Jesus said to “Eat My Body” even though if “all” means “all”, shouldn’t “Eat” mean “Eat” as well?

 

[Della]

Although I believe inthe Immaculate Conception,
I have some trouble refuting Rom 3:23 which states
that evrybody sinned. My colleagues want Bible
text to convince them of this doctrine.

Does anyone know of any?

Who are your colleagues? Protestants, I assume.

First of all, they are misinterpreting Rom 3:23. There are many instances in Scripture where the word “all” is used but clearly wasn’t meant to be inclusive of everyone. It is up to them to prove Paul meant what they want that verse to say since the context isn’t dealing with personal sin, but with the fact that both Jews and Gentiles are sinners before God–which is Paul’s intention here. If Paul had truly meant “all” to mean “every person ever born” he would also have had to have meant Jesus for Jesus was born of a woman as the rest of us were.

Generally Luke 1:28: And he [the Archangel Gabriel] came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” is cited as a scriptural witness to Mary’s Immaculate Conception. A better translation of the phrase “favored one” is “one already filled with grace”. And how could Mary already be filled with grace before Jesus’ death on the cross?

Also Luke 1:31: And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. Mary wasn’t implanted with Jesus, she conceived him in her womb. Since God will not dwell where there is sin, he created her free from sin so she could conceive Jesus in her womb. Jesus was flesh of Mary’s flesh and no other’s. Jesus’ flesh was pure of sin because Mary’s flesh was pure of sin.

 

[promethius]

Although I believe inthe Immaculate Conception,
I have some trouble refuting Rom 3:23 which states
that evrybody sinned. My colleagues want Bible
text to convince them of this doctrine.

Does anyone know of any?

If you read the chapter in its entirety, the objection to your colleagues’ assertion becomes very clear.

Romans 3 is not addressing individual members, and it is not addressing the individual righteousness of persons. Here, then, is why it is important that catholics have the “whole picture context” that protestants so often ignore.

Romans 3 is actually addressing the faith integration of various traditions such as the Jews, Gentiles, and other converts. During Paul’s time, there was much debate as to stratifying the Christians by what tradition they came from in the first place… that Jews should hold a “special place.” Paul rejected that notion.

So when Paul says “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” what he is referring to is that ALL the traditions have failed to measure up to the expectations set by the Father. There IS no statement that every human being in the world sinned and didn’t measure up… after all, we know for a fact that Elijah was so good in God’s eyes that he was assumed bodily into heaven.

Tell your colleagues that they should get a good bible and read in context rather than twisting the scriptures to suit their own wills instead of God’s.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Although I believe inthe Immaculate Conception,
I have some trouble refuting Rom 3:23 which states
that evrybody sinned. My colleagues want Bible
text to convince them of this doctrine.

Does anyone know of any?

If they are so black and white about Rom. 3:23 then that would mean that goes for Jesus as well. But most Protestants agree with us that Jesus never sinned.
So if Jesus is an exception, then why not Mary?

 

[mo3]

Although I believe inthe Immaculate Conception,
I have some trouble refuting Rom 3:23 which states
that evrybody sinned. My colleagues want Bible
text to convince them of this doctrine.

Does anyone know of any?

Rom 3:10: "as it is written: “There is no one just, not one, 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God.”

Does this mean there is “no one” who seeks God? Ask them if they seek God.

All have sinned? How about a baby who dies 3 days old? How about retarded children who die? How about the 45 million aborted babies?

 

[Della]

Rom 3:10: "as it is written: “There is no one just, not one, 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God.”

Does this mean there is “no one” who seeks God? Ask them if they seek God.

They actually love these verses since they interpret them as reinforcing their view of 3:23. They believe it means that everyone is unregenerate/already damned before “accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior”. And since they’ve accepted Christ into their hearts it no longer applies to them. Romans makes no sense to them outside of that theological construct. Besides which, anything that goes against their interpretation is automatically rejected since it would, in their minds, mean rejecting all they believe about salvation, and they cannot do that for fear they too be damned.

All have sinned? How about a baby who dies 3 days old? How about retarded children who die? How about the 45 million aborted babies?

To the more extreme interpreters of Romans, yes, it means just that. It’s what drives them to try to convert people. Those who don’t take such an extreme view simply ignore any consequences of their thinking.

It has to be remembered that most Protestant congregations that hold to the depravity of man theory are small and insulated from the world (and they want to keep it that way). When people challenge their beliefs they doggedly repeat what they’ve been told by their pastors, who they believe implicitly. They fear they will lose their only means of salvation, poor souls.

 

[Pwrlftr]

It has to be remembered that most Protestant congregations that hold to the depravity of man theory are small and insulated from the world (and they want to keep it that way). When people challenge their beliefs they doggedly repeat what they’ve been told by their pastors, who they believe implicitly. They fear they will lose their only means of salvation, poor souls.

Your church holds to the “depravity” of man or maybe a better term would be the “total inability of man”. In short, man can do nothing supernaturally good without God’s grace. I believe this is rather well laid out in the Council’s of Orange and Trent.

 

[Della]

Your church holds to the “depravity” of man or maybe a better term would be the “total inability of man”. In short, man can do nothing supernaturally good without God’s grace. I believe this is rather well laid out in the Council’s of Orange and Trent.

Definitions are important. There is a big difference between the idea that man is “depraved” (totally without God’s grace) and having a “total inability” to do supernatural good without God’s grace.

Depravity means that man is devoid of any good whatsoever. That is not the teaching of the Church, as I understand it. Man’s nature has been mortally wounded by the fall, but not rendered devoid of any good.

Of course, we need God’s grace in order to do supernatural good. But since God’s grace is poured out into the world by the redemptive work of Christ, we are not devoid of God’s grace. That grace is freely given by God so that we can repent. Likewise, are we are not devoid of the ability to respond to that grace, otherwise we would not be moved to seek baptism nor repentance.

If I am wrong in my understanding of Church teaching here, I welcome correction from those better informed than I.

In any case, Rom. 3:23 isn’t referring to personal sin but to the fact that no one group of people can claim exemption from sin by birth or heritage. That is Paul’s point, not that man is depraved nor that God did not grace Mary with the Immaculate Conception–a topic he never touches upon.

We have to remember that Mary was chosen by God to be the Mother of Christ. This means that with her birth he was ushering in a new era for mankind–the dawn of the age of grace. Her calling was from all eternity, not just from the moment Gabriel was sent to announce Christ’s coming to her with his conception in her womb. How can this be? To answer that we have to look at how OT persons were saved.

The faithful of the OT were not saved by the blood of goats, sheep, and oxen, but by looking forward to the Sacrifice of Christ those offerings foreshadowed. Paul tells us this himself. Mary was the last of the OT persons and the first of the NT persons to be redeemed by looking forward to the redemption Christ would gain for the world.

In Mary’s case, God applied the grace of the redemption to come to her so that she was conceived without the stain of original sin and without concupiscence (the desire to sin). He did this to ensure that the flesh of Jesus would be pure, not just to exalt Mary.

This accomplished two things that assured our salvation: 1) Satan could lay no claim on Jesus because of the sin of his mother and 2) it made Jesus (in his humanity) the pure, perfect sacrifice required to satisfy God’s justice. That is why the Immaculate Conception was declared a dogma of the Church reinforcing what had already been believed and taught by the Church.

Once again, if I have misstated Church teaching, please correct me, fellow Catholics.

 

[promethius]

Depravity means that man is devoid of any good whatsoever. That is not the teaching of the Church, as I understand it. Man’s nature has been mortally wounded by the fall, but not rendered devoid of any good.

You are correct. One of the major differences between MOST protestant sects and the Catholic church is the concepts about the condition of man. Protestants believe in total depravity, catholics believe in fundamental nature being preserved…

that is to say, just as you have said, that we still have the original nature that God imbued us with, that the moral law and the desire to join the church and worship God is written into the souls of each person. That nature may be critically wounded, but it is still there. Protestants by and large teach that that nature was totally murdered, and that ONLY depravity can come out of action without God… namely, no such thing as invincible ignorance… Ghandi wasn’t a good person because he didn’t have Jesus as his “personal” (blegh, i hate this heresy) Lord and Savior, and because of that, nothing he did was intrinsically good.

 

[ryanoneil]

The word “all” in Rom 3:23 in Greek is pantes. It is the same word used in 1 Cor 15:22 where Paul says “all” have died. But we know that Enoch and Elijah did not die; they were assumed into heaven. This means that when Paul says “all” (pantes), he does not mean every single one. In fact, Paul says in Rom 5:19 that “many” were made sinners. This means that when Paul says “all” in regard to sinners, he really means “many.”

scripturecatholic.com/mary_qa.html#allhavesinned

 

[PJM]

Although I believe inthe Immaculate Conception,
I have some trouble refuting Rom 3:23 which states
that evrybody sinned. My colleagues want Bible
text to convince them of this doctrine.

Does anyone know of any?

Reply:

The failure here seems to lie in the fact that some are unwilling to understand who and what God is. Without understanding these most basic questions, how is one to understand what God is saying:thumbsup?

So who and what are God?:

God is the Creator (to “create” is to make out of nothing.) of everyone and everything. This is commonly understood. What is not commonly understood is that it is God who keeps everybody and everything alive, and it is God who determines (or at least desires too) choose the time of death for every living thing from you and me, to a blade of grass and everything in between.

Now that my friend is an Awesome God! And a God who can accomplish anything that He God Wills. Amen?

So we can now see that God is “All Everything Good,” and nothing that is bad or evil. Amen? That means that God is not only All Loving, but God is, must be, has to be All JUST." To be otherwise would mean that He could not, would not be God Amen?

The ATTRIBUTES or characteristics of God that apply to the current discussion are God’s Love for us, and God’s Justice.

If we understand even fractionally how much God loves us, it is easier to understand why His Justice is vital to the current discussion.

Please understand that God’s Justice is manifested as an attribute that God must apply, again to not do so would result in Him not being the “All everything Good” necessary of God.

We need also to understand that God made us “in His image and likeness” in order that He could communicate with us, and so with our gift of intellect, we could comprehend (too lesser or greater degrees) what it is God has Willed to “gift us” with.

Can we agree that God is (again must be, has to be) Perfect? If you respond yes, then you now have the reason Mary “HAD TO BE PERFECT and Sin less. Because God Himself is perfect, He could only have His Son Jesus, born from one who too was MADE PERFECT (through the very merits of her Son Jesus). It could be no other way.

Certainly one can understand that if Mary had not been made Perfect, that Jesus would have been born with a Perfect Godly Nature and an imperfect Human Nature, simply not possible for God! Amen?

**Whether we accept the words of the Arch Angel Gabriel as “Oh highly favored One,” or the more accurate “Hail Full of grace,” one can see the extraordinary Hand of God in what is about to take place.

How shall this be, I’m a virgin? The Holy Spirit shall come upon YOU and YOU will conceive a Son. and you shall call Him Jesus. Amen?

How could she NOT be made Perfect?**

God bless,
PJM m.c.

 

[Xenos8]

Some things to consider:

If Mary was sinless she wouldn’t have said “And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” Luk 1:47
Only a sinner needs a savior, right?

Della said: “Since God will not dwell where there is sin, he created her free from sin so she could conceive Jesus in her womb. Jesus was flesh of Mary’s flesh and no other’s. Jesus’ flesh was pure of sin because Mary’s flesh was pure of sin.”

What about in Luk 1:15 where it talks of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb; Elizabeth in verse 41, and Zacharias in verse 67?

 

[ryanoneil]

If God saved Mary from ever sinning He would still be her savior. Right?

 

[Della]

Some things to consider:

If Mary was sinless she wouldn’t have said “And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” Luk 1:47
Only a sinner needs a savior, right?

Not quite. Mary needed Jesus to save her just as much as any other human being. The difference being this: God applied the saving grace of Jesus’ redemption to her before she could have sinned. It’s the difference between saving someone before they fall into a pit and pulling him out afterwards. Also, ask yourself how the faithful of the OT were saved if the blood of sheep, goats, and oxen weren’t sufficient, as Paul told us? They were saved by looking forward to the Sacrifice to come–the shedding of the Blood of the Lamb. That’s why Jesus went to them in Sheol and brought them with him into heaven. Mary was saved in a similar way only more immediate–to make her flesh pure so that the flesh of Jesus would also be pure.

Della said: “Since God will not dwell where there is sin, he created her free from sin so she could conceive Jesus in her womb. Jesus was flesh of Mary’s flesh and no other’s. Jesus’ flesh was pure of sin because Mary’s flesh was pure of sin.”

What about in Luk 1:15 where it talks of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb; Elizabeth in verse 41, and Zacharias in verse 67?

John the Baptist was indeed cleansed of original sin in the womb, but not from the instant of his conception. It’s why the Church celebrates his birthday–because he was born (not conceived) without sin, just as Jesus and Mary were, whose birthdays are also the only other ones celebrated in the Church. He had a very special mission to accomplish but his flesh was not going to be the flesh of the Son of God as Mary’s was–the highest calling to which any human being could ever be called, apart from saving humankind, as was Jesus’ calling.

You’ll also note that it happened JtB when Elizabeth heard Mary’s voice. And, she also declared: “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?” Mary wasn’t a mere receptacle that carried Jesus, he was flesh of her flesh and bone of her bone because he was conceived in her womb not merely placed there.

Zacharia wasn’t filled with the Holy Spirit at the instant of his conception because he too was not to be the one from whom God would take flesh to be born among us. Naturally not, but I made this statement, as odd as it might sound, to emphasis the fact that being immaculately conceived as Mary was and being filled with the Holy Spirit as Zacharia (and others, such as Stephen [full of grace, but also AFTER being born] is a very different thing.

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Church not to exalt Mary, per se, but to tell us that Jesus’ sacrifice was indeed a pure one that could not be questioned by Satan or anyone else. Remember, how all the OT sacrifices had to be spotless and clean? How much purer the Sacrifice of Jesus, pure in flesh and pure in spirit born of a pure Mother?

 

[PJM]

Some things to consider:

If Mary was sinless she wouldn’t have said “And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” Luk 1:47
Only a sinner needs a savior, right?

Excellent question. The difficulty you seem to have is applying your own understanding of the verse in question. One must always exercise GREAT caution when “pulling” only one or two verses. Quite often the answer lies in the fullness of the text.

To respond to your question, which is a VERY GOOD ONE

Where and how do you suppose that Mary was “made perfect” and “sinless” and why? By the very Merits of the future actions of Her Son Jesus on the Cross! Keep in mind, that with God, time does not exist. Everything happens For God “in the present time.”

Keep in mind also that it was God’s Perfect and Able to do any good Will, that caused the miracle to happen. Why? Because God is and has to be perfect, and could not allow His Son (who is Also God and Perfect) to be borm from a human who was not Perfect. In God ALL things are possible Amen? So, we see that indeed Mary too was saved by God, only in a manner fitting of her unique role as of “Mother of GOD!!!” Amen?

What about in Luk 1:15 where it talks of John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb; Elizabeth in verse 41, and Zacharias in verse 67?

Reply: again it is an issue of proper unserstanding of what is being said. “Filled with the Spirit” neither speaks or even implies a sinless nature. Christians “are filled with the Spirit” at Baptism
and again at Confirmation. Catholics are also “filled with The Spirit” everytime we receive the Body, Blood, Sould and Divinity. of Jesus Himself in Holy Communion.

“Being Filled With the Spirit” is a very good thing! But of itself (except for Baptism where both sin and the effects of sin are errased) the 'In-Filling of the Spirit, is more henderence, a shield to help US deflect sin.

God bless, PJM m.c.

 

[PJM]

Rom 3:10: "as it is written: “There is no one just, not one, 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God.”

Does this mean there is “no one” who seeks God? Ask them if they seek God.

All have sinned? How about a baby who dies 3 days old? How about retarded children who die? How about the 45 million aborted babies?

Reply:

My dear friends in Christ,

God does not allow you to choose which Commandments your going to accept, right?

John 21:"24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. **25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. **

Nor does God allow you to select which bible instructions you personally can choose or reject. Remember our God is a JUST God!

I have explained why in specific detail what Mary HAD TO BE PERFECT AND SINLESS. She was to become the Mother of GOD!!! God is, has to be Perfect, so Mary too has to be PERFECT (impossible that she would not be Perfect) because if she were less than Perfect, God could not be God and Jesus could not be Perfect and God!

Luke Cahpter 1:"26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, * the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel of The Lord said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end." 34 And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” 35* ** And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God. "**

The KJV:“Jesus’ Birth Foretold
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.” 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. **34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."**My dear friends in Christ, your own bible tells you the same thing.

PJM m.c.
God bless you all!

 

[Xenos8]

I have explained why in specific detail what Mary HAD TO BE PERFECT AND SINLESS. She was to become the Mother of GOD!!! God is, has to be Perfect, so Mary too has to be PERFECT (impossible that she would not be Perfect) because if she were less than Perfect, God could not be God and Jesus could not be Perfect and God!

God does not have a mother. Mary was the mother of Jesus’ human body, in that she bore Him. She didn’t have to be perfect, and wasn’t, only Jesus was. If Mary being perfect were so foundational to Christianity surely it would be explained in the scriptures clearly. It isn’t.

Reply: again it is an issue of proper unserstanding of what is being said. “Filled with the Spirit” neither speaks or even implies a sinless nature.

Precisely! So how were John the Baptist’s parents both filled with the Holy Spirit? Remember, He’s also God and perfect, right? How could He be in them? See? Mary doesn’t have to be perfect and all the other things said of her. If you read the New Testament the focus is always on Jesus Christ, not Mary.

 

[PJM]

God does not have a mother. Mary was the mother of Jesus’ human body, in that she bore Him. She didn’t have to be perfect, and wasn’t, only Jesus was. If Mary being perfect were so foundational to Christianity surely it would be explained in the scriptures clearly. It isn’t.

Precisely! So how were John the Baptist’s parents both filled with the Holy Spirit? Remember, He’s also God and perfect, right? How could He be in them? See? Mary doesn’t have to be perfect and all the other things said of her. If you read the New Testament the focus is always on Jesus Christ, not Mary.

Interesting reply

So you don’t believe that Jesus is God or you don’t believe that Mary is the Mother of Jesus? You can’t have it both ways

My dear friend I fear that you are trying too hard to deny the obvious truth. Why is that?

And if you and I are “filled” with The Holy Spirit, we are sinless? From your lips to God’s ears my friend.

How come you can pick and choose what you choose to accept, even from your edited and "up-dated KJV bible what you will accept and believe? How very convient.

It must be easier to live ones faith, when one can choose what they will believe, what they will accept, what they will practice.

*Heb. 5: 8 "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"

2 tim. 3:“16 All scripture is inspired by God and * profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

John 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. "**

Luke Chapter 1"30* And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31* ** (Sure sounds like God is being described here!) ** 34* And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” 35* And the angel said to her, **"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God. **Reply: “Son of God means that Jesua is God” right? And Mary gave birth to Him right? So If Jesus Is God, and Mary gave birth to Jesus (who is God) how can Mary NOT be the Mother of God:shrug:

Fess up, do you in your heart really think it’s part of God’s plan for your Salvation **to allow you ** to determine what is right and acceptable and what is not?

God bless you my dear friend in Christ…

Seek THE truth and you Will Find Jesus! Amen.

PJM m.c.

 

[christmary4ever]

God does not have a mother. Mary was the mother of Jesus’ human body, in that she bore Him. She didn’t have to be perfect, and wasn’t, only Jesus was. If Mary being perfect were so foundational to Christianity surely it would be explained in the scriptures clearly. It isn’t.

Precisely! So how were John the Baptist’s parents both filled with the Holy Spirit? Remember, He’s also God and perfect, right? How could He be in them? See? Mary doesn’t have to be perfect and all the other things said of her. If you read the New Testament the focus is always on Jesus Christ, not Mary.

Mary Gave birth to Jesus who is God. Therefore Mary is the mother of God. To deny this is to Reject that Jesus is true God and True Man. Jesus Flesh is derived from Mary hence She is
his mother. The Bible in Matthew 2 and John 2 clearly says that
Mary is the mother of Jesus. The Bible never said Mary is only
the mother of Jesus body or humanity. Human Beings will always
have a mother. unless you no longer believe that Jesus is tue God and True man. after his resurrection