Romans 4: 3--give thoughts, PLEASE

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Please consider and critique the thought

One translation of Rom. 4. 3 (Oxford) is: For what does Scripture say?
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

I truly believe that this is saying: Abraham’s faith was measured by God’s righteousness and declared righteous.

In other words, Abraham’s faith had matured and now declared good, acceptable or the way humans beings should be.

PLEASE give your thoughs
 
One translation of Rom. 4. 3 (Oxford) is: For what does Scripture say?
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

In other words: when a persons faith matures, then it is measured and said to be righteous.
 
What did Abraham do?

***He considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. *(Hebrews 11:19)

Abraham was told by God that his descendents would be more numerous than the sand in the sea. Then God told Abraham to kill his only son. There is a paradox there - if God told Abraham to kill his only son then how could he also have descendants? Did God lie?

Abraham correctly reasoned that God would raise Isaac from the dead and so he did not hesitate to offer his son when told to do so, knowing that God would raise him from the dead.

For what does Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

Abraham believed God. Abraham had faith in God. Abraham trusted God. Faith is trust.

-Tim-
 
Actually, the Scripture that Rom. 4:3 refers to is Gen. 15:6, which predates the birth of Isaac by a number of years, and the sacrifice of Isaac by a larger number of years.
 
Jim_Baur said:
Please consider and critique the thought

One translation of Rom. 4. 3 (Oxford) is: For what does Scripture say?
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

I truly believe that this is saying: Abraham’s faith was measured by God’s righteousness and declared righteous.

In other words, Abraham’s faith had matured and now declared good, acceptable or the way humans beings should be.

PLEASE give your thoughs
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This is Haydock’s commentary on Romans 4:3. Today, reputed = reckoned; imputation = attribution; I also modernized the 1859 teacheth, repudeth, and proceedeth.
*
The Scripture, therefore, teaches us that he (Abraham) became just by his faith. And as he had this faith by the grace of God, grace was the cause of his justification, and not any works without grace.
And when it is said, “it was reputed [reckoned] to him”, we must not understand an imputation [attribution ] of being just without a true and interior justice:
for to be reputed [reckoned] just in the sight of God, who sees the heart and sanctifies the soul by his interior grace, is the only true justice that can make a man acceptable to God. As not to have our sins imputed [reckoned] in the sight of God is to have them forgiven, and to be free from our sins. (Witham)
–Reputed [Reckoned] by God, who reputes [reckons] nothing otherwise than it is. However, we may gather from this word that when we are justified, our justification proceeds from God’s free grace and bounty; and not from any efficacy which any act of ours could have of its own nature, abstracting from God’s grace. (Challoner)*

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id148.html
 
by his deeds, he showed that he believed God, and God declared him righteous. we will also be judged this way.
 
DaveBj said:
Actually, the Scripture that Rom. 4:3 refers to is Gen. 15:6, which predates the birth of Isaac by a number of years, and the sacrifice of Isaac by a larger number of years.
Click to expand...
Abraham’s belief that God would make his descendants more numerous than the sand in the sea in spite of the command to kill his only son was expressed most fully when he was ready to sacrifice his son on the mountain.

Semitic writers did not write in linear timelines like modern writers. Paul was a teacher who used rabbinic teaching techniques such as remez which means hint.

The reference to Genesis 15:6 is a hint which would bring the entire story of Abraham to the reader’s mind. It was not just a reference to a single verse - that is not the way Jewish teachers and scholars of the Scriptures taught or wrote. That one verse would have brought all Abraham was and did to the mind of Paul’s audience.

The entire section of Romans is about faith, about trust. It even says so in the next two verses…

Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. (Romans 4:5-6)

This is the Jewish way of teaching.

-Tim-
 
detoutcoeur

Thanks!

Haydock’s commentary is saying the same thing, correct?

THANKS!
 
I want to thank all of the people that have helped me here!

THANKS!
 
We need to understand that man’s main problem begins, in Eden, with lack of faith in God. Adam’s sin was the sin of disbelief; he literally disbelieved God and in so doing rejected His godhood- Adam effectively no longer recognized a god, over and above himself. Man’s experience thereafter, in this present world, would be one where he runs the show, and we must struggle with all the ramifications involved in that state or condition-is life really better without God? And this question really takes on increasing intensity and import as 1) we suffer the consequences of sin/evil in ourselves and others in this brave new world, in this experiment with man’s total freedom or autonomy from God, and 2) He reveals Himself and His goodness to us.

Knowing better and always wanting only the best for man while not being willing to force us into obedience, God worked with man, drawing him back to Himself, revealing Himself little by little, as the time was ripe in our history, in various ways through various people, ultimately culminating in the full revelation with the advent of Jesus Christ, Who’s very purpose was to restore faith in God, reconciling man with Him. Abraham simply serves as a great early model of that faith, that trust, which Trent calls the beginning, the root, of justification-something we’re all called to have for righteousness sake, but something which is also a gift-*and a gift which we can reject. *
 
I believe in all the early chapters of Romans Paul is trying to present an argument that circumcision and the laws of cleansing were not the basis of partaking in the Eucharist, but rather Baptism and Confirmation.

It is an argument expanded further than what he did in Galatians.
 
I should expand on the reason Paul used Abraham as an example within the framework that he was trying to defend.
  1. Abraham was a very important figure in Jewish history.
  2. Abraham lived before the law.
  3. Circumcision was introduced in Genesis 17.
  4. Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:5-6, Psalm 110:4) appears in Genesis 14.
  5. Melchizedek brought out bread and wine, which is a foreshadow.
Therefore it was neither circumcision or cleansing rituals of the law.

Those two are of the flesh. Baptism and Confirmation are of the soul.
 
An idea

Justification: the spiritual measuring of an individual’s love and faith. When God measures one to be morally mature or justified or righteous.
 
Jim_Baur said:
An idea

Justification: the spiritual measuring of an individual’s love and faith. When God measures one to be morally mature or justified or righteous.
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Interesting idea Jim. I currently view justification as being the state of new birth, the state of entry into the Family of God, rather than the eventual state of maturity.
 
DarrylB

Yes!

I did not want to give too many ideas at once.

There would being a relative justification an absolute justification.

I was using Abraham as an example: Once he was measured complete, then he received circumcision. Or more complete, once he was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

Jesus Christ is Absolute Justification.

Relative to my final second on earth absolute for me, God will measure based on Jesus Christ and declare me, because of His gifts of GRACE, fully matured or grown. I believe it is my love and faith that is measured or judged.
 
Perhaps I might be okay if I say it this way:

Justification is the measure of one’s love and faith. Love and faith grow. Justification is the measuring of them.
 
Jim_Baur said:
Perhaps I might be okay if I say it this way:

Justification is the measure of one’s love and faith. Love and faith grow. Justification is the measuring of them.
Click to expand...
Faith is meant to lead to love. The purpose of faith is communion with God, apart from Whom we can do nothing (John 15:5). That relationship is essential in order for humans to be able to love as God desires us to, in order to be the people He created us to be-and so this love is what constitutes our justice, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. And, as the Council of Trent tells us, faith is the beginning, the root, of our justification. Only with the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and love, is man whole- with love being the most important, the capstone of the three. This is why love is at the core of the gospel as well as Catholic teachings; God is love and man becomes divinized as he grows in love, in this likeness of God, transformed by His grace. And, interestingly, Trent also affirms that, even after our initial justification, we can grow in even more justice yet.
 
Jim_Baur said:
Please consider and critique the thought

One translation of Rom. 4. 3 (Oxford) is: For what does Scripture say?
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

I truly believe that this is saying: Abraham’s faith was measured by God’s righteousness and declared righteous.

In other words, Abraham’s faith had matured and now declared good, acceptable or the way humans beings should be.

PLEASE give your thoughts
Click to expand...
The Holy Bible is the Word of God and true only in the original language it was inspired and written in, not necessarily any translation. The policy of Bible translators is to translate 1 word of the original Greek or Hebrew into 1 word of English and although they do their best, that is not always possible. The word in the Greek that is translated as “believe”, is is “pistuo”, a belief so strong that a person will try as hard as they can to have all of their words and actions in agreement with their “pistuo”. Abraham’s belief (pistuo) includes his acting on that pistuo and leaving where he was staying and moving away even though he did not know at that time where God was going to send him.
 
Jim_Baur said:
Perhaps I might be okay if I say it this way:

Justification is the measure of one’s love and faith. Love and faith grow. Justification is the measuring of them.
Click to expand...
And here’s how St John of the Cross put it: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".
 
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