romans 4:5

[bene7]

bones_IV:

Jesus said that even demons themeselves have faith.

I don’t know where Jesus said demons believe in Him. Although James states that demons are monotheistic in their belief, i.e., they believe God is one - and shutter. Knowing and fearing that by the one true God they will be judged and eternally cast off. But no demon has ever believed in the Person and work of Jesus Christ for their redemption, for their salvation, for their justification. There is no salvation plan, whatsoever, for demons. No demon can ever be justified by God simply because he’s monotheistic. The Son became a Man - not an angel. He died for the sins of all mankind, not angels.

Romans 4:5 And to onewho does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith reckoned as righteousness.

The Council of Trent says “this act of faith moves the person to recognize and repent of his sins; to put his trust in God’s mercy and to love him above all things; and to desire the sacraments and resolve to live a holy life”, (De iustificatione). “His faith is righteous ness” is another way of saying that justification renders works good and meritorious of eternal life. God reckons faith as righteousness and this is something to be rewarded. For faith is the first step towards obtaining justification (=salvation).

Sorry, but the Council of Trent is stating the exact opposite of what Paul clearly teaches in Romans 4:5: “But to the one who does NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES in Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned (by God)* as righteousness.*”

Then in verse six he states it again: “…just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteous APART from works.”

Justification as a GIFT OF GOD by HIS GRACE (i.e., Divine favor; Rom. 3:24) does not render works meritorious of eternal life but, in fact, clearly communicates the opposite - it renders works totally worthless. Paul argues in Rom. 4:4-5 that wages due, based on works, has nothing to do with unmerited favor based solely on faith.

"Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, BUT as what is due. BUT to the one who does not work, BUT believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness…"

Rom. 5:5 is the Pauline doctrine of Divine justification by faith alone in a nutshell. Trusting in what God says Christ did FOR us is the first and sole requirement of the man who is then declared (as a favor) righteous by God. The true believer in Christ has committed himself to all that God is, all that God has done, and all that God will do through the Person and work of Jesus Christ on his behalf. There’s content to saving faith - the faith by which God Himself justifies the UNGODLY.

If God justifies a man based on works, whatsoever (either works of the Law or works of grace), then He does not justify the ungodly as Paul here plainly defends - but the Godly. Paul goes into great detail to demonstrate that it is the ungodly that are justified by God on the basis of faith alone. The content of that faith, this side of the cross, being the Person and work of His Son Jesus Christ (John 3:14-18).

Glory to God,
Bene

Just thinking:

"I am the Immaculate Conception," Our Lady of Lourdes, France."

Why would Mary glorify herself by identifying herself with the title “The Immaculate Conception.” It’s one thing to say that she was immaculately conceived, but quite another to say “I am the Immaculate Conception.” I feel there’s something strangely wrong here - to the point where I wonder who this entity truly was.

 

[bene7]

Catholic Dude:

You missed what Ch3 was talking about then, its all about jew vs gentile.

Actually, chapter three is not about Jew vs. Gentile, but the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in that:

“…all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (all) being justified AS A GIFT by His GRACE through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:23-24).

"…for the demonstration I say, of His righteousness at the present time, the He might be just and the justifier of the one (either Jew or Gentile) who has faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:26).

Paul goes on to state that this faith principle (or, "the law of faith) excludes all boasting (see Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:8-9). Boasting is suitable only when works are involved, but Divine justification is based solely on faith in what God did FOR us - hence no room for boasting. If a Godly Jew cannot boast in his obedience to the righteous Law of Moses, on what obedient works could the Gentile possibly boast having not ever being under the Covenant of Law? Paul answered this back in verses 21-22 of chapter three:

"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who BELIEVE; for there is no distinction;

What is this “righteousness of God” that was manifested apart from the Law but witnessed by the Law and Prophets? Jesus Christ Himself and Him crucified. Hence, Paul elaborates in chapters three and four on the principle that righteousness is reckoned by God based solely on one’s faith in Christ who took upon Himself the sin of the whole world, being displayed publicly as a propitiation for all our sins.

(also dont forget he wasnt even known as “Abraham” yet when “his faith was reckoned”, his name was still Abram)

Why did you stop with “his faith was reckoned,” Do you have a hard time saying “was reckoned as righteousness?” The changing of his name did not change his righteous standing before God. His righteousness was based on his faith, not his name.

and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

This simply means He (God) justifies Jews on the basis of their faith, as well as the Gentiles through their faith. VERY simple, don’t complicate it. After all, He is the God (Creator) of the Gentiles (who did not have the Law), just as He is the God of the Jews who had the Law.

In Romans chapter four Paul goes on to elaborate on this same theme of justification by faith alone.

Dont forget that this “faith” Abraham displayed was not some one time act, he was faithful long before and long after through deed after deed, ieGen12-17.

But at only one point in Abraham’s life does it say that God reckoned him righteous because he believed (Gen. 15:6). Abraham wavered in his faith subsequent to this, but never is it stated that he had to be re-justified before God. It was a one time declaration. Just as the one who now believes in Christ and His one time, once-for-all, sacrifice for our sins is forever justified, as a gift, by the God of Abraham who calls him (Abraham) the father of all who BELIEVE (Rom. 4:16).

“After these things” is talking about Abraham doing everything God commanded, including leaving his home and going to a foreign land. God says clearly Abraham “your reward” indicating merits on Abraham’s part.

What??? “After these things” means after the previous recorded events in Gen. 14. After these things (the previous recorded events) the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision saying…"

God Bless,
Bene

 

[Pax]

bene7:

…
…
In Romans chapter four Paul goes on to elaborate on this same theme of justification by faith alone.But at only one point in Abraham’s life does it say that God reckoned him righteous because he believed (Gen. 15:6). Abraham wavered in his faith subsequent to this, but never is it stated that he had to be re-justified before God. It was a one time declaration. Just as the one who now believes in Christ and His one time, once-for-all, sacrifice for our sins is forever justified, as a gift, by the God of Abraham who calls him (Abraham) the father of all who BELIEVE (Rom. 4:16).What??? “After these things” means after the previous recorded events in Gen. 14. After these things (the previous recorded events) the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision saying…"

God Bless,
Bene

Sorry, but scripture tells us that Abraham was justified on three separate occassions.

In Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 makes reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-4, and says, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.” We know this is a reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, " Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval." Divine approval is given for a person’s faith only when it is a saving faith.

James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as rightousness; and he was called the friend of God.”

 

[Pax]

bene7,

If we are saved by faith alone then please explain why Paul tells us that we are saved by hope in Romans 8:24.

 

[bones_IV]

Pax:

bene7,

If we are saved by faith alone then please explain why Paul tells us that we are saved by hope in Romans 8:24.

Good one Pax.

 

[bones_IV]

bene7:

I don’t know where Jesus said demons believe in Him. Although James states that demons are monotheistic in their belief, i.e., they believe God is one - and shutter. Knowing and fearing that by the one true God they will be judged and eternally cast off. But no demon has ever believed in the Person and work of Jesus Christ for their redemption, for their salvation, for their justification. There is no salvation plan, whatsoever, for demons. No demon can ever be justified by God simply because he’s monotheistic. The Son became a Man - not an angel. He died for the sins of all mankind, not angels.Sorry, but the Council of Trent is stating the exact opposite of what Paul clearly teaches in Romans 4:5: “But to the one who does NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES in Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned (by God)* as righteousness.*”

Then in verse six he states it again: “…just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteous APART from works.”

Justification as a GIFT OF GOD by HIS GRACE (i.e., Divine favor; Rom. 3:24) does not render works meritorious of eternal life but, in fact, clearly communicates the opposite - it renders works totally worthless. Paul argues in Rom. 4:4-5 that wages due, based on works, has nothing to do with unmerited favor based solely on faith.

"Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, BUT as what is due. BUT to the one who does not work, BUT believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness…"

Rom. 5:5 is the Pauline doctrine of Divine justification by faith alone in a nutshell. Trusting in what God says Christ did FOR us is the first and sole requirement of the man who is then declared (as a favor) righteous by God. The true believer in Christ has committed himself to all that God is, all that God has done, and all that God will do through the Person and work of Jesus Christ on his behalf. There’s content to saving faith - the faith by which God Himself justifies the UNGODLY.

If God justifies a man based on works, whatsoever (either works of the Law or works of grace), then He does not justify the ungodly as Paul here plainly defends - but the Godly. Paul goes into great detail to demonstrate that it is the ungodly that are justified by God on the basis of faith alone. The content of that faith, this side of the cross, being the Person and work of His Son Jesus Christ (John 3:14-18).

Glory to God,
Bene

Just thinking:
Why would Mary glorify herself by identifying herself with the title “The Immaculate Conception.” It’s one thing to say that she was immaculately conceived, but quite another to say “I am the Immaculate Conception.” I feel there’s something strangely wrong here - to the point where I wonder who this entity truly was.

Once again, putting words in my mouth that don’t even have a foundation. If you believe in faith alone then do you believe that God should be in the pledge of allegiance? Saying the pledge of allegiance is a good deed. You say you saved by faith alone, you contradict yourself when you say the pledge of allegiance.
Your arguements are simply long winded attempts at rationalization. Furthermore, your statements are emotionally based.

 

[bones_IV]

I will also say Bene7 that we do not rely on ourselves for salvation. If you say that we are saved by faith alone, then why does James say that a faith without works is a faith that’s dead. Faith alone holds no consistency.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

bene7-
(For the most part I dont disagree with the first part of post22).

The changing of his name did not change his righteous standing before God. His righteousness was based on his faith, not his name.

The name change is very significant:
Gen15: 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Then about 15 YEARS later, Gen17:
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, “I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, 4 "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
…10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
…15 And God said to Abraham, "As for Sar’ai your wife, you shall not call her name Sar’ai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 I will bless her, and moreover I will give you a son by her… 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said to himself, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? Shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “O that Ish’mael might live in thy sight!” 19 God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.This was a long in the unfolding, about 15 years, when God appeared here then Abram became Abraham. The covenant was now established.
Now back to Rom4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.”
Compare this with how things really unfolded above, Paul is speaking in short hand about something that unfolded over time. This “faith” Abraham displayed was more in depth than protestants think, it was not a one time done deal act of faith but a life long display of obedience and trusting in God.

But at only one point in Abraham’s life does it say that God reckoned him righteous because he believed (Gen.15:6). Abraham wavered in his faith subsequent to this, but never is it stated that he had to be re-justified before God. It was a one time declaration. Just as the one who now believes in Christ and His one time, once-for-all, sacrifice for our sins is forever justified, as a gift, by the God of Abraham who calls him (Abraham) the father of all who BELIEVE (Rom. 4:16).

Im not sure where you claim he “wavered” in his faith.
As for you claim of anyone who believes is “forever justified”, thats unBiblical, people can lose their salvation because salvation is a life long process, Romans13:
11 … For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; 12 the night is far gone, the day is at hand. Let us then cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light;13 let us conduct ourselves becomingly as in the day…

 

[mercygate]

Bene’s argument is absolutely airtight and unassailable – if the only book of the Bible you read is Paul’s letter to the Romans. The problem with this kind of apologetic is that you have to pretend the rest of the Scriptures, particularly the New Testament, including the words of Our Lord himself, do not exist. This works very well in dialogue with Catholics, who, of course, never read any Scriptures at all and therefore can be led around by the nose.

 

[Sherlock]

heisenburg:

Thank you for your replies…

While I agree wiht what each of you say, what is it that this particular verse is saying. He continues to return to this verse as his backbone.

Thanks guys

Here’s a question to ask: WHY is that particular verse his backbone? Why that one, and not another? I think questioning him along those lines might get him to think about his method of making the Bible fit his particular theology—which is really what’s going on here. Why would he choose one verse as his backbone, and not the whole (which is the Catholic understanding)?

 

[bene7]

Pax:

Sorry, but scripture tells us that Abraham was justified on three separate occassions.

Actually it doesn’t, Pax. Gen. 15:6 is the only place/occasion where it is recorded that, at that moment, God declared Abraham righteous in His sight. And it was because he believed the Word of the Lord and He (God) reckoned it (his act of believing) to him as righteousness. This is the whole point Paul is making in Romans chapters three and four. At the time Abraham took the three day journey with his son Isaac to Mt. Moriah to offer up a burnt offering, and in obedience to God laid his promised son on the alter, it is not recorded there in the text that God reckoned this act of obedience as righteousness. Certainly his faith was tested by that event (not for God’s sake, He’s omniscient), but nowhere is it recorded there in the text that by that act of obedience God reckoned it as righteousness.

In your desperation to discredit justification by faith alone you argue against the Apostle Paul himself. Paul clearly points out in Rom. 4:10 that Abraham was reckoned righteous BEFORE he was circumcised. A MAJOR point in that chapter to show that God reckons one righteous based on faith alone- not works of any kind, or ancestry or, religious association. The attempted offering up of Isaac was long after he was circumcised, long after he was already reckoned righteous when he believed the Word of the Lord in Gen. 15:6.

“How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith” (Rom. 4:10-13).

Those who “follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham” are those who, like Abraham, also believe the Word of the Lord.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hear My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and DOES NOT come into judgment, but HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE" (John 5:24).

James states that Abraham’s faith was perfected (matured) because of the test God gave him concerning his son Isaac. But in respect to Abraham’s justification James quotes Gen. 15:6 where it is stated that Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (James 2:23). At the time of the attempted offering up of Isaac Abraham’s faith was being tested, but he’d already been justified years before when he believed God’s Word. His true faith was demonstrated by his act of obedience, but it was his act of faith in God’s Word that was the cause of God declaring him righteous - many years before.

Careful, Pax, you’re arguing against the Word of God (see 2 Cor. 13:5).

God Bless,
Bene

 

[bene7]

If we are saved by faith alone then please explain why Paul tells us that we are saved by hope in Romans 8:24.

No man is ever “saved by hope.” And Paul more than anyone would not declare such an error. We’re saved BY GRACE through FAITH (Eph. 2:8) in the Person and work of Jesus Christ alone.

Paul actually says that we HAVE BEEN saved “in hope.” Not “by hope.” That’s a huge difference.

Paul uses that same phrase in Rom. 8:20-21 stating that creation itself was subjected to futility by God “in hope” that the day is yet to come when it also will be set free from slavery to corruption (death) - into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Salvation is at this point in history an inward reality. All that entails our salvation is not yet exposed, especially the physical aspects of it. Though the true believer is already justified by God, regenerated (made spiritually alive) by the Holy Spirit, and ALL sins forgiven through the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, we have yet to experience the redemption of our bodies (Rom. 3:23). Made into conformity to that of Christ’s glorified, risen body:

“For in hope we HAVE BEEN SAVED, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one hope (i.e., wait expectantly) *for what he sees? But if we hope *(wait expectantly) for what we do not see, with perseverance we WAIT eagerly for it” (Rom. 8:24-25).

The Apostle John concurs:

“Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. WE KNOW that, when He appears, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because we shall see Him just as He is. And every one who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure” (1 John 3:2-3).

It’s not a hope to be saved, Pax, but a living hope, eagerly waiting for what is already ours because we’re saved.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[Pax]

bene7,

You are wrong in your spin on James 2:21-23.

The passage reads:
" Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God."

James says that Abraham was justified on this occassion with Isaac as sacrifice by both his faith and his works. You could not be more wrong to suggest that James is “only” talking about Genesis 15:6.

You are engaging in esegesis and not exegesis. Your contention that James is speaking of Genesis 15:6 is made up from whole cloth. I also noticed that you failed to address the third instance of Abraham being justified that I referenced. For your edification I will give it to you once more:

Hebrews 11:8 makes reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-4, and says, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.” We know this is a reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, " Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval." Divine approval is given for a person’s faith only when it is a saving faith.

You can make any statement you want about faith alone, but your going to find that it won’t hold up under reasonable scrutiny. We have already given you plenty to absorb, but there is a lot more in scripture that contradicts your view.

I find your dismissal of Romans 8:24 to be another effort in eisegesis and not exegesis. The KJV Bible which is the most venerated among Protestants quotes the passage as follows:

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

The Living Bible says:
** We are saved by trusting**

The Webster’s Bible says:
** For we are saved by hope:**

It is true that other translations say something like “For in this hope we were saved,” but that does not change the meaning. You are grasping at a translational straw to support your view and it just won’t fly.

 

[Pax]

bene7,

Try asking yourself a few simple questions.

If we do not trust/hope in God to be saved, then who is it that we are trusting in?

If we trust/hope in someone or something other than God for our salvation can we be saved?

The answers to these questions are simple and straight forward. Once they are answered, then ask yourself if you are truly saved by faith alone, or if hope/trust in God is also necessary.

I personally do not believe that we can trust anyone but God for our salvation.

I personally place all of my hope and trust in God for my salvation.

Clearly, I am not saved by faith alone and I don’t think anyone else is either.

 

[Pax]

bene7:

…
…
It’s not a hope to be saved, Pax, but a living hope, eagerly waiting for what is already ours because we’re saved.

God Bless,
Bene

If we are already saved and there is no chance of losing our salvation, then hope is no longer necessary and it wouldn’t be spoken of in scripture along with faith and love.

I suppose love isn’t necessary either. I’ve actually had to prove from scripture to “faith alone” believers that loving God is necessary to be saved. Do I need to demonstrate this to you as well?

 

[bene7]

Pax:

bene7,

You are wrong in your spin on James 2:21-23. James says that Abraham was justified on this occassion with Isaac as sacrifice by both his faith and his works. You could not be more wrong to suggest that James is “only” talking about Genesis 15:6.

Pax, can you show me in Gen. 22 where God says he declares Abraham righteous for willing to offer up Isaac? If you can then Paul has grossly errored in Rom. 4, and Genitles cannot be saved except they be circumcised.

Hebrews 11:8 makes reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-4, and says, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.” We know this is a reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, " Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval." Divine approval is given for a person’s faith only when it is a saving faith.

Can you show me in this Hebrew passage where it says God declares Abraham righteous for leaving his birth place?

You can make any statement you want about faith alone, but your going to find that it won’t hold up under reasonable scrutiny.

That’s true, if I said it, it wouldn’t hold up. But God said it through the Apostle Paul, and I think that holds up quite well. The beauty of having the WRITTEN word of God is that men like you can’t change it.

I find your dismissal of Romans 8:24 to be another effort in eisegesis and not exegesis.

The context is Rom. 8:23 which talks about the future redemption of our bodies, not the salvation of our souls. It is this we eagerly wait for with perseverence (Rom. 8:25).

God Bless,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Pax:

bene7,Try asking yourself a few simple questions.

If we do not trust/hope in God to be saved, then who is it that we are trusting in?

If we trust/hope in someone or something other than God for our salvation can we be saved?

Good question!!! That’s why Paul goes into GREAT detail in Romans chapter three and four about being justified AS A GIFT through faith alone (Rom. 3:24). Through trusting in what Jesus did FOR US, perfectly and completely and once for all.

I personally do not believe that we can trust anyone but God for our salvation.

Actually, you’re “hoping” that God WILL save you. You have not trusted in Christ’s work on your behalf to HAVE saved you. You’re “hoping” that at the end of your life He’ll accept your “works of grace,” and your love for Him. Not his love for you by sending His Son and dying in your stead; and by believing in Him (what He did) you HAVE eternal life (John 3:14-18).

I personally place all of my hope and trust in God for my salvation.

You mean you place all you hope and trust in that God might save you. Your “hope” actually circumvents the cross.

Clearly, I am not saved by faith alone and I don’t think anyone else is either.

I know!!! How tragic! And so I leave you with your own question.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[jimmy]

heisenburg:

Help…

THis verse says soemthing to the effect of a man who does not work but beleives is justified…

How do I counter this with respect to Faith Aloners…

Thanks in advance

With James 2 where James says basically that works and faith are both necessary and faith without works is dead.

 

[Pax]

bene7:

Pax, can you show me in Gen. 22 where God says he declares Abraham righteous for willing to offer up Isaac? If you can then Paul has grossly errored in Rom. 4, and Genitles cannot be saved except they be circumcised.Can you show me in this Hebrew passage where it says God declares Abraham righteous for leaving his birth place?That’s true, if I said it, it wouldn’t hold up. But God said it through the Apostle Paul, and I think that holds up quite well. The beauty of having the WRITTEN word of God is that men like you can’t change it.The context is Rom. 8:23 which talks about the future redemption of our bodies, not the salvation of our souls. It is this we eagerly wait for with perseverence (Rom. 8:25).

God Bless,
Bene

bene7,

Why would I need to supply you with those exact terms in Genesis when we have apostles telling us that Abraham was justified on those occassions? The author of Hebrews and the apostle James stated that these were moments of justification for Abraham. Your argument is with them and not me. You simply don’t like the passages in James and Hebrews because they disagree with your preconceived ideas. I didn’t write the book of Hebrews or the book of James. They are the inspired word of God in every way and to the same degree that Romans is. Those books say what they say and any denial on your part concerning the justification of Abraham must refute the words in James and in Hebrews. This you have not done and you cannot do.

 

[Pax]

Please show me in scripture where Paul says, that we are saved “by faith alone.” There is only one place in scripture that uses the word “faith” and the word “alone” together. That verse is James 2:24 and in that verse the apostle says that we are **not ** saved by faith alone.

You simply misunderstand Paul and when confronted with verses from his own letters that deny your contention you are forced to go through some serious contortions to twist scripture to fit your understanding. A perfect example of this was in your responses to Romans 8:24 which says “For we are saved by hope,” Your first response was that it really didn’t say “saved by” and you played games with the translation in an effort to make the verse mean something other than what it does say. When this didn’t work, you then went after the context with this remark:

“*The context is Rom. 8:23 which talks about the future redemption of our bodies, not the salvation of our souls. It is this we eagerly wait for with perseverence (Rom. 8:25). *” You are once again trying to prove something by twisting the context to fit your belief. Romans 8:23 says, “but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.” Your attempts to confine this reference to hope as only pertaining to the redemption of our bodies is nonsense. First of all, the verse also mentions our adoption as sons. Everyone that is saved is an adopted son or daughter. Secondly, all of the saved are redeemed both body and soul. The hope Paul speaks of clearly pertains to both body and soul. You are creating a separation that does not exist and you are doing so at the expense of the truth.