romans 4:5

[Sherlock]

bene7:

Thank you for the clarification, Sherlock. Yes, I do adhere to the Biblical truth that Christ will come for His Church before the Tribulation period that comes upon this earth. As for Premillialism, it was the dominate belief for at least the first 300 years of Church history. Amillennialism, in all its forms, was a later development, not from the study of the prophetic Scriptures, but a lack of it.

God Bless,
Bene

Well, I don’t agree with your last statement in the least, but let’s leave that for now.

One of the major problems I have with pre-Tribulation dispensationalism (and this particular variant of pre-milleniallism IS a very recent theological theory, being less than 200 years old—have you read this? catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp) is that you have Jesus coming 2 more times, which goes against Scripture—there will be a Second Coming, at which time there will be the Final Judgement. There’s no “secret” coming earlier.

 

[bene7]

Sherlock:

Well, I don’t agree with your last statement in the least, but let’s leave that for now.

One of the major problems I have with pre-Tribulation dispensationalism (and this particular variant of pre-milleniallism IS a very recent theological theory, being less than 200 years old—have you read this? catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp) is that you have Jesus coming 2 more times, which goes against Scripture—there will be a Second Coming, at which time there will be the Final Judgement. There’s no “secret” coming earlier.

Well, we can’t discuss the subject on this thread. But I’ll end with the the fact that much of Dispensational eschatology is based on the Book of Daniel. And in the last chapter of that Book it is said to him:

"And he said, “Go your way Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end of time. Many will be purged, purified and refined; but the wicked will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand” (Dan. 12:9-10).

God Bless,
Bene

 

[Sherlock]

bene7:

Well, we can’t discuss the subject on this thread. But I’ll end with the the fact that much of Dispensational eschatology is based on the Book of Daniel. And in the last chapter of that Book it is said to him:

"And he said, “Go your way Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end of time. Many will be purged, purified and refined; but the wicked will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand” (Dan. 12:9-10).

God Bless,
Bene

Are you suggesting that I’m wicked, and thus do not understand?

 

[bene7]

Sherlock:

Are you suggesting that I’m wicked, and thus do not understand?

No, not at all. My emphasis was on the point that the words were to be concealed and sealed up until the last days when the prophetic events revealed in the Book of Daniel were about to accur. This against your point that my eschatological position is a “recent one” and was not held historically by the Church. But you need to understand that, contrary to Biblical revelation, the Church eventually adopted Replacement Theology (the idea that the Church replaced national Israel - it bacame the “new Israel”), and that erroneous act in itself prevented (blinded) men from understanding Biblical prophecy. And today it’s not that you can’t understand these things, but that you simply refuse to accept them because your Church has provided you with its own, official position, and you have been taught that the “Magesterium” is infallible in those areas. Also, Protestantism came out of Catholicism, bringing Catholic eschatology with it. But once the issue of justification by faith alone was finally settled, men again began to explore the Scriptures for all that they had to reveal, and Premillennialism was re-discovered. Understanding that the Church is not the Kingdom, and the Kingdom is not the Church. The Pre-trib. view was born out of Premillennialism, by consistently taking the prophetic Scripturs literally. My eschatology is “recent” only in that men have only recently gone back to the Scriptues and studied them, literally, for their prophetic content.

God Bless,
Bene

P.S. Believers are never called "the wicked" in Scripture. That designation is reserved only for unbelievers. And if unbelievers don’t accept soteriololgical truths concerning Christ and the cross, how could they possibly understand eschatological truths?

 

[bene7]

Pax:

I have already shown you from scripture that Paul never says that justification only occurs one time. His references to Abraham in Gen 15:5-6 are a proof to the Judaizers that they are not justified by the OT law. This does not translate into a “one time” only event of justification, and Paul does never says that we are justified only once.

Paul’s not just pointing out that Jews are not justified by the O.T. Law, but that no one, Jew or Gentile, can be justified by ANY works at all: “But to the one who DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the un-godly, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.” Pax, if you’re still around:

Paul’s whole point is that works are completely out of the equation when it comes to God justifying men. They are justified by/through faith or they are not justified at all. It is a Divine Gift based on faith in the work of Another - the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They [the Jews] were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

This is NOT addressed to individual believers during this Church age. It’s a warning to “Gentiledom” in general: If reconciliation came to the Gentiles because of national Israel’s rejection of their Messiah (vs. 13, cf. Acts 13:46); if riches (in Christ) came to the Gentile world because of their (Israel’s) transgression (unbelief, vs. 12); if Israel (not all individual Jews) was broken off from the blessings of Abraham because of their unbelief (vs. 20), then He will not spare the Gentile world either if they, during this Church age, reject the Gospel message - which we see rapidly happening in our day. Governmentally Europe has rejected its Christian roots. Conservative Canada has expressed the same. The U.S., the last stronghold for Christianity, is also quickly moving away from its Christian roots. “Gentiledom” is becoming faithless and is ripe for its reception of Antichrist and the Tribulation period described in Revelation chapters 6-18. And so because of Gentile unbelief, in His sovereignty, God will graft national Israel back into its own olive tree (vs. 24) and will bless them at the end of this age, fulfilling the prophetic and unconditional covenant promises He made to that nation (Matt. 24:3-29; Rom. 11: 26-29). At the return of Christ a remnant of Jewish believers in Jesus (Zech. 12:10) will make up national Israel which will be ushered (nationally) into Christ’s Millennial rule on earth (see Zech. 13:8-9; Rom. 11:26-27). And He will rule His earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem.

Romans 11 has nothing to do with individual believers losing their salvation by being “cut off” from the olive tree. You missed the context completely.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[volzcpa]

Maybe you are “Justified” by faith alone, but it takes faith and works to be saved. See Matt 25:31-46 and you can see that both the sheep and the goats have faith but only the sheep, who did works, are saved.

 

[bene7]

volzcpa:

Maybe you are “Justified” by faith alone, but it takes faith and works to be saved. See Matt 25:31-46 and you can see that both the sheep and the goats have faith but only the sheep, who did works, are saved.

Actually, they’re separated based on what they are (sheep), not what they did. Also, that judgment is not for the Church but those that are living on earth at the time of Christ’s return. As mortals the sheep are ushered into the Kingdom which He sets up on this earth at that time.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[Pax]

bene7:

Paul’s not just pointing out that Jews are not justified by the O.T. Law, but that no one, Jew or Gentile, can be justified by ANY works at all: “But to the one who DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the un-godly, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.” Pax, if you’re still around:

Paul’s whole point is that works are completely out of the equation when it comes to God justifying men. They are justified by/through faith or they are not justified at all. It is a Divine Gift based on faith in the work of Another - the Lord Jesus Christ.This is NOT addressed to individual believers during this Church age. It’s a warning to “Gentiledom” in general: If reconciliation came to the Gentiles because of national Israel’s rejection of their Messiah (vs. 13, cf. Acts 13:46); if riches (in Christ) came to the Gentile world because of their (Israel’s) transgression (unbelief, vs. 12); if Israel (not all individual Jews) was broken off from the blessings of Abraham because of their unbelief (vs. 20), then He will not spare the Gentile world either if they, during this Church age, reject the Gospel message - which we see rapidly happening in our day. Governmentally Europe has rejected its Christian roots. Conservative Canada has expressed the same. The U.S., the last stronghold for Christianity, is also quickly moving away from its Christian roots. “Gentiledom” is becoming faithless and is ripe for its reception of Antichrist and the Tribulation period described in Revelation chapters 6-18. And so because of Gentile unbelief, in His sovereignty, God will graft national Israel back into its own olive tree (vs. 24) and will bless them at the end of this age, fulfilling the prophetic and unconditional covenant promises He made to that nation (Matt. 24:3-29; Rom. 11: 26-29). At the return of Christ a remnant of Jewish believers in Jesus (Zech. 12:10) will make up national Israel which will be ushered (nationally) into Christ’s Millennial rule on earth (see Zech. 13:8-9; Rom. 11:26-27). And He will rule His earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem.

Romans 11 has nothing to do with individual believers losing their salvation by being “cut off” from the olive tree. You missed the context completely.

God Bless,
Bene

Bene,

I’ll put this as politely and charitably as I can. Your explanation and interpretation is utter nonsense. I stand by my posts and at this point there is nothing else that needs to be added. Should you come up with something that makes sense I’ll respond to it.

 

[stargazer257]

volzcpa:

Maybe you are “Justified” by faith alone, but it takes faith and works to be saved. See Matt 25:31-46 and you can see that both the sheep and the goats have faith but only the sheep, who did works, are saved.

This “works” for me…

Sorry, had to throw the pun out there…

Well, I pray that through my good works alongside my faith, that the Lord sees fit to offer me his grace at the time of my death here on earth.

SG257

 

[Sherlock]

bene7:

No, not at all.

My emphasis was on the point that the words were to be concealed and sealed up until the last days when the prophetic events revealed in the Book of Daniel were about to accur. This against your point that my eschatological position is a “recent one” and was not held historically by the Church.

The pre-tribulation dispensationalism that you adhere to came about in the early 1800’s. Are you saying, then, that Mr. Darby (the early popularizer of the “Rapture” theory) knew that he was in the “last days”, and thus was granted special understanding of the book of Daniel, which was then passed on (with the aid of Mr. Scofield) to the present? So that’s why the previous 1800 years of Christianity had no such theory of the “last days”—because they weren’t living in the last days? Just how long-lasting are these "last days’, then----200 years is a long time. Maybe it should be “last centuries”? How do you know that these are the “last days”? People have thought so countless times throughout history, and were proven wrong. As a Catholic, I’m not worrying about the “last days”, as I need to act as if My Lord were coming at any time, any day.

bene7:

But you need to understand that, contrary to Biblical revelation, the Church eventually adopted Replacement Theology (the idea that the Church replaced national Israel - it bacame the “new Israel”), and that erroneous act in itself prevented (blinded) men from understanding Biblical prophecy. And today it’s not that you can’t understand these things, but that you simply refuse to accept them because your Church has provided you with its own, official position, and you have been taught that the “Magesterium” is infallible in those areas.

What makes your interpretation of Scripture more authoratative than the interpretation of those who studied with the apostles themselves, and who then passed on their teaching in an unbroken line to the present? Why is your interpretation of Biblical prophecy better than these? What is your authority? You are blinded by the teachings of the pre-trib dispensationalist crowd, and you have been taught to accept their teaching despite the teaching in Scripture that Jesus comes only one more time. The Second Coming is it, bene. Three comings is not to be found in Scripture, and claims of secret knowledge known only to a few is bordering on gnosticism.

bene7:

Also, Protestantism came out of Catholicism, bringing Catholic eschatology with it. But once the issue of justification by faith alone was finally settled, men again began to explore the Scriptures for all that they had to reveal, and Premillennialism was re-discovered. Understanding that the Church is not the Kingdom, and the Kingdom is not the Church. The Pre-trib. view was born out of Premillennialism, by consistently taking the prophetic Scripturs literally. My eschatology is “recent” only in that men have only recently gone back to the Scriptues and studied them, literally, for their prophetic content.

For something to be “re-discovered”, it had to have been discovered in the first place. There is no existence of pre-tribulation dispensationalism prior to the 1800s. You will not find the idea of not one but two more comings of Jesus in Scripture or anywhere in the Church. And you are a Protestant, whether you realize that or not—you an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of some branch of Protestantism. How is it that they were all blinded by the Catholic Church, but you weren’t? Also, the idea that it’s only “recently” that men have gone back to the Scriptures is insulting to the 2000-year history of devout Christians who have loved the Scriptures. It smacks of what C.S. Lewis called “chronological snobbery”—the idea that my generation (or, in your case, my sect) is just naturally doing something better than previous generations or other sects merely by virtue of being recent.

 

[Philthy]

Pax:

Bene,

I’ll put this as politely and charitably as I can. Your explanation and interpretation is utter nonsense. I stand by my posts and at this point there is nothing else that needs to be added. Should you come up with something that makes sense I’ll respond to it.

Oh c’mon Pax - we all know each other well enough by now. You don’t need to hold back - just tell us what you really think.

Phil

 

[bene7]

Sherlock:

The pre-tribulation dispensationalism that you adhere to came about in the early 1800’s. Are you saying, then, that Mr. Darby (the early popularizer of the “Rapture” theory) knew that he was in the “last days”, and thus was granted special understanding of the book of Daniel, which was then passed on (with the aid of Mr. Scofield) to the present?

No, not at all. Actually what Darby did was realize, according to his study of the Scripture, that national Israel and the Church remain consistently separate entities, separate Divine programs in Biblical revelation. That the Church was not revealed in the O.T., especially the prophetic Scriptures. When the Church officially adopted Augustinian Amillennialism for centuries the O.T. prophetic Scriptures were neglected. They erroneously spiritualized the O.T. prophetic Scriptures assuming they were all fulfilled, spiritually, by the Church, during this Church age. But nothing could have been further from the truth.

How do you know that these are the “last days”?

We know we’re in the “last days” because Israel is back as a nation once again in preparation for God to fulfill His prophetic and unconditional covenants with that nation:

“And I shall set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. And the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward. And the nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My
face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword.” Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Now I shall restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I shall be jealous for My holy name. And they shall forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord God" (Eze. 39:21-29).

We know that we’re near the end of this Church age (this specific time when Christ is building His Church, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles (Matt. 16:18), because based on a literal delineation of the prophetic Scriptures the true Church does not experience, is not destined for, the time of the Tribulation period, the “wrath to come,” also known as the time of “Jacob’s trouble” or “distress,” and “the Day of the Lord” (Jer. 30:7; cf. 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10).

What makes your interpretation of Scripture more authoratative than the interpretation of those who studied with the apostles themselves, and who then passed on their teaching in an unbroken line to the present?

This comment makes absolutely no sense. The Scriptures were written by Jews before and after Christ. But the Apostles did not hand down to the subsequent generation a written (or even verbal) complete commentary on the Scriptures. Even when the Scriptures were being written, those who wrote them didn’t always know themselves the full extent of their meaning (see 1 Pet. 1:10-12). They were serving the generation(s) that would experience them (Dan. 12:9-10).

Three comings is not to be found in Scripture, and claims of secret knowledge known only to a few is bordering on gnosticism.

I agree, and we don’t teach thee comings of Christ. You parrot a false understanding. There is only one second coming to this earth. But He does catch up His Church/Bride in the air, and she returns with Him when He does set foot on this earth again to rule. There’s no gnosticism involved here, nothing “secret” about this knowledge. If it was I wouldn’t be telling you, would I? But it’s kind of like what Isaiah prophesied concerning the first coming of Christ: “Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed” (Is. 53:1).

For something to be “re-discovered”, it had to have been discovered in the first place.

I said Premillennialism was “re-discovered” by going back and studying the prophetic writings. It was prominate during the first four centuries of Church history.

May the Lord open your mind to His prophetic Word. It’s quite exciting.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[volzcpa]

Bene–

I will pray for you.

 

[bene7]

volzcpa:

Bene–

I will pray for you.

For what specifically?

Blessings,
Bene

 

[volzcpa]

bene7:

For what specifically?

Blessings,
Bene

For the same thing that I pray for all my family and friends, for the salvation of your immortal soul.

 

[bene7]

volzcpa:

For the same thing that I pray for all my family and friends, for the salvation of your immortal soul.

Why pray for something that has already occurred? All Heaven has already rejoiced over me.

Rejoicing in Christ,
Bene

 

[volzcpa]

bene7:

Why pray for something that has already occurred? All Heaven has already rejoiced over me.

Rejoicing in Christ,
Bene

Philippians 1:19 “For I know that this shall fall out to me unto salvation, through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,”

The phrase translated as “unto salvation” is the Greek eis soteria. (Also used in Rom 1:16, Rom 10:1, Rom 10:10, 2 Cor 7:10 and in many other New Testament texts.) The preposition “eis” most often denotes continuous motion toward something, rather than indicating something already accomplished. The Hebrew has a similar meaning.

From Strong’s Lexicon word #1519
*Greek-1519 eis ice a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:–(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), …ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively).

Hebrew-1519 giyach ghee’-akh (Aramaic) or (shortened) guwach (Aramaic) {goo’- akh}; corresponding to 1518; to rush forth:–strive.*

So I will continue to pray for you just in case I am right.

 

[bene7]

volzcpa:

Philippians 1:19 "For I know that this shall fall out to me unto salvation, through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

The phrase translated as “unto salvation” is the Greek eis soteria. (Also used in Rom 1:16, Rom 10:1, Rom 10:10, 2 Cor 7:10 and in many other New Testament texts.) The preposition “eis” most often denotes continuous motion toward something, rather than indicating something already accomplished. The Hebrew has a similar meaning.

My friend, Paul’s letter to the Ephesians was one of his prison Epistles. Eph. 1:19 is not referring to his own hope to one day be “saved” from the eternal benalties of his sin, but his deliverance from his Roman imprisonment. It is better translated, based on the context, “For I know that this shall turn out for my deliverance through your prayers…”

Please, don’t waste your time (and the Lord’s) praying for my salvation. There’s men and women serving in Iraq who desperately need your daily prayers. People are still trying to go on from disasters in those southern states.

This boy IS already saved, redeemed, justified and waiting patiently to one day be glorified and see his Lord face to face.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[thistle]

bene7:

This boy IS already saved, redeemed, justified and waiting patiently to one day be glorified and see his Lord face to face.

Blessings,
Bene

Wrong! Salvation is not assured just because you believe in Christ.
Even Satan believes in God but he is not saved!

 

[volzcpa]

Since this is the word of God, let’s pray to him to tell us what he meant.