Romans 4

[Link0126]

How do you reconcile this entire chapter and the surrounding ones with Faith + Works. Here Paul is sounding very “faith alone” although he never quite straight up says that. I have heard that is he talking about the Jewish Law. And I see where he uses that term “works of law”, however, in chapter 4 I believe and in some other places he doesn’t always use “works of law” and instead just says “works”. The implication seems to me to be that he is talking about faith alone.

Also, how do we reconcile the fact that Paul uses the phrase “free gift”. If works are required doesn’t that make negate the gift being truly free?

Thank you for your time and wisdom.

 

[beafedor]

Read chapter 3, it gives the context of chapter 4. Paul is rebuking those who want Pagan converts to Christianity to be circumcised and initiated to the Jewish faith, by fulfilling the works of the Law (such as sacrifices to atone for their sins) and therefore do not acknowledge the ultimate sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

 

[iwillendure]

i think it seems to be saying that one should have faith and trust in God even if something seems like it is impossible we must have faith that all things are possible by God an put our trust in him and in doing so we will be seen as righteous before the Lord.

it doesnt sound like to me he saying if you have faith you will have salvation. if thats what you meant.

 

[Link0126]

Yeah, I read 3 all the way through 6. What about the “free gift” language?

 

[beafedor]

Yeah, I read 3 all the way through 6. What about the “free gift” language?

In which chapter and verse?

 

[TimothyH]

How do we square what really does seem like salvation by faith alone in Romans 4 with what James 2 says, that faith without works is dead? The whole faith vs works or faith + works argument is often based on a faulty or incomplete understanding of what the word faith meant to the authors and their audience.

We hvae an intuitive understanding of what the word “Faithful” means. Faithful has to do with allegiance and loyalty. The word “Faithful” is made out of two words; faith + full. To be faithful is to be full of faith. If you are full of faith, you have no room for anything else. Mary was “Full of grace” and she had no sin. Satan is “Full of lies” and he has no truth in him. Likewise, one who is ful of faith (faithful) has no room for a wavering heart, there is no divided loyalty in him.

The word “Faithfulness” simply means the fullness of faith. Faithfulness is a description not of how you feel, but of what you do. One who is faithful to his wife does not run off into the arms of a lover as soon as his marriage gets a little difficult. An employee who exhibits faithfulness (the fullness of faith) shows up in a snow storm and does not quit when the economy tanks and commission checks slow down.

So faith, in and of itself, is an interior inclination of the heart, mind, and will toward loyalty, but the fullness of faith (faithfulness) is also an actual manifestation of that interior inclination (faith) in our daily lives - it is defending the thing we are loyal to when a threat arises, standing by in rough times. Faithfulness is both an interior inclination to loyalty and an exterior manifestation of that loyalty by actually being loyal.

*…the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, “I have made you father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist. He believed, hoping against hope, that he would become “the father of many nations,” according to what was said, “Thus shall your descendants be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body as (already) dead (for he was almost a hundred years old) and the dead womb of Sarah. He did not doubt God’s promise in unbelief; rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God and was fully convinced that what he had promised he was also able to do. That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:16-22)*Abraham was told that his son Isaac would be the father of many nations. Then God told Abraham to kill Isaac.Pretty wierd, huh? Well Abraham figured out that God could probably raise people from the dead and, 1) believed God’s promise that Isaac would be the father of many nations (the interior inclination of faith) and 2) was willing to kill Isaac when ordered to do so by God (the fullness of faith). This is why James could say that Abraham’s faith was “active” and “completed” by his works.

*For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Philippians 2:13)*Paul ties it together here when he speaks about the desire of faith and the work which arises from the fullness of faith where there is not divided loyalty, no wavering heart and no hesitation. Paul also tells us that they are both from God who works in us both to desire and to work.

*I entreat you with all my heart: have mercy on me in accord with your promise. I have examined my ways and turned my steps to your decrees. I am prompt, I do not hesitate in keeping your commands. Though the snares of the wicked surround me, your teaching I do not forget. (Psalm 119:58-61)*Even David understood the disire to work based on his faith in a promise and the fullness of faith which caused him to be prompt and not hesitate, just like Abraham.

***But it was not for him alone that it was written that “it was credited to him”; it was also for us, to whom it will be credited, who believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, **(Romans 4:23-24)*Note that the crediting of righteousness for us is given in the future tense - will be - indicating that justification through our faith is not a one time event. Paul speaks often about persevering, enduring and running the race to win the prize. Protestants and Catholics are not too far apart. Protestants believe that the active part of faith - the works - are are a gift from God as a result of the initial belief and are a manifestatiojn of faith through God’s grace. Catholics see both faith and works (the fullness of faith) as a grace from God - first the belief which results in faith and later, as we grow and struggle, we hope like Abraham, to come to the fullness of faith. We are really not that far apart but I think not so willing to admit that.

I hope this makes a little sense.

-Tim-

 

[Link0126]

Chapter 5:12-21

Says “free gift” many times. Also, he says that by one man’s obedience many will be made Righteous. This makes it sound as if it is not our obedience that counts towards our righteousness.

 

[TimothyH]

Yeah, I read 3 all the way through 6. What about the “free gift” language?

Look at Philippians 2:13

*For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Philippians 2:13)*Faith has both an interior component (desire) and as we approch a more full faith, an exterior component (work), but God is the one who gives it to us that faith freely.

The faith is a free gift but it is not the faith that it “credited to us as righteousness” as much as is the fullness of faith. Our faith needs to be like Abrahams faith, active faith and completed faith. That’s why Paul speaks continuously about persevering, enduring and running the race. That’s why Jesus said, “Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” That’s why Jesus warns us about the narrow gate and how hard it is to enter the kingdom of heaven.

-Tim-

 

[Link0126]

Look at Philippians 2:13

For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Philippians 2:13)Faith has both an interior component (desire) and as we approch a more full faith, an exterior component (work), but God is the one who gives it to us that faith freely.

The faith is a free gift but it is not the faith that it “credited to us as righteousness” as much as is the fullness of faith. Our faith needs to be like Abrahams faith, active faith and completed faith. That’s why Paul speaks continuously about persevering, enduring and running the race. That’s why Jesus said, “Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” That’s why Jesus warns us about the narrow gate and how hard it is to enter the kingdom of heaven.

-Tim-

Wow. Thank you for this well thought out answer which seems to take into account the entirety of scripture and not just one or two verses.

Just to clear up one thing, does God give us the faith AND the works or just the faith and we do the works on our own?

 

[James224]

How do you reconcile this entire chapter and the surrounding ones with Faith + Works. Here Paul is sounding very “faith alone” although he never quite straight up says that. I have heard that is he talking about the Jewish Law. And I see where he uses that term “works of law”, however, in chapter 4 I believe and in some other places he doesn’t always use “works of law” and instead just says “works”. The implication seems to me to be that he is talking about faith alone.

Also, how do we reconcile the fact that Paul uses the phrase “free gift”. If works are required doesn’t that make negate the gift being truly free?

Thank you for your time and wisdom.

In Rom 3:28-29, Paul is talking to the Judaizers. The Judaizers believed you had to keep the works of the law. Rom 2:6-10 says “Works” are necessary. This is the context for chapter 4.

Rom 1:5 Rom 1:5 says, “…Obedience to the Faith…”
Rom 16:26 Rom 16:26 says, “…for the Obedience of Faith…”
Rom 6:16 Rom 6:16 says, “…or of Obedience unto justice…”

Rom 1:5,16:26,& 6:16 show that Faith and Obedience are one, especially Rom 1:5. If faith is all you need to be saved, someone who commits adultery after accepting Christ could still be saved. This is untenable as proved in I Cor 6:9-10 which says, “…Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effiminate, nor liars…shall posses the kingdom of God.” (also see Eph 5:5,Apoc 21:8)

 

[fhansen]

How do you reconcile this entire chapter and the surrounding ones with Faith + Works. Here Paul is sounding very “faith alone” although he never quite straight up says that. I have heard that is he talking about the Jewish Law. And I see where he uses that term “works of law”, however, in chapter 4 I believe and in some other places he doesn’t always use “works of law” and instead just says “works”. The implication seems to me to be that he is talking about faith alone.

Also, how do we reconcile the fact that Paul uses the phrase “free gift”. If works are required doesn’t that make negate the gift being truly free?

Thank you for your time and wisdom.

Faith and works are absolutely inseparable. While the Law cannot justify a man, we’re nevertheless expected to be obedient to the Law. Read Matt 5, the Sermon on the Mount, especially verses 17-20 and also Luke 18:18-22 which shed light on what we must do to inherit eternal life.

The difference is that now, under the New Covenant, we’re to obey out of love, made possible for us by the changes wrought in us by grace, beginning first of all with our response of faith.

Just as God could’ve forgiven and restored (saved) us without the sacrificial act of Jesus on the cross- He could also save us without any cooperation or perseverance-without any acts- on our part but He elected not to do so in both cases. We’re to follow Jesus on our path to righteousness, working out our salvation, picking up our own crosses. Obedience to the Law and works of love that God gives us to perform “make real”, affirm, concretize those changes, that righteousness-it becomes an internal part of who we are rather than just talk or platitudes-or rather than merely an imputed righteousness. An example is how we’re challenged to profess our faith openly, rather than keep it private (Mark 8:38), as well as to perform other acts of righteousness such as feeding the poor and visiting the sick or imprisoned, etc.

This is explained further in the Parable of the Talents, where the servants are to not merely receive the talents (grace) but also to invest them and realize gain from them or be kicked out of the Master’s domain.

**Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom 2:13

God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:6

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 5:6
**

 

[catholic1seeks]

Just to clear up one thing, does God give us the faith AND the works or just the faith and we do the works on our own?

I’m about to go to be but saw this and thought I’d chip in the quick answer.
Both faith AND works are God’s gifts, his grace. Good works mean nothing to our salvation unless they are the works performed under the influence of God’s grace. For we humans cannot do a single thing on our own to merit salvation. Our good works that flow from charity, a supernatural virtue, are very different from natural works. It is only a supernatural act-- a good work caused by God’s grace and done through Charity-- that can have any meaning to salvation.

What does a supernaturally good work have to do with salvation? Well, the Catholic view of justification is, of course, that God actually makes us holy by his sanctifying grace. (Unlike the Protestant perspective, where our sins are only “covered,” like, to use Martin Luther’s analogy, snow on dung.) Rather, we become partakers of the divine nature, as St. Peter says. Because justification involves a real transformation of the soul, by good works we can grow in our relationship with God, and these supernaturally good works done by Charity are rewarded by God with an increase in sancifying grace–we grow in holiness. And, therefore, good works contribute to our justification.

 

[TimothyH]

Wow. Thank you for this well thought out answer which seems to take into account the entirety of scripture and not just one or two verses.

Just to clear up one thing, does God give us the faith AND the works or just the faith and we do the works on our own?

I appreciate your kind words.

Much like the other’s have said, I think it is all God’s doing. But there is a choice to make, a moment of decision when God calls us and we freely choose to respond with our yes instead of our walking away and ignoring his call.

*CCC 1730: God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.*You don’t just wake up one morning and say, “Oh, now I believe in God and I’m going to be a good person.” Man has free will and must freely choose God. We can also choose to walk away at any time. It may help to use the analogy of the debtor’s prison upon which the terms “Salvation” and “Redemption” are based in Scripture.

*In the ancent times, if one could not pay a debt they were thrown in prison. This was done as much as a deterrant to accruing debt as it was to humiliate the debtor. To further humilate the debtor, even if he came into enough money to pay his debt while in prison, he could not do so himself. A relative, friend or even a stranger had to come down to the prison and pay his debt for him. Paying the debt to get the debtor out of prison was what was known as redemption. This is how many slaves and servants were purchased.

But even then, the debtor was not let out of prison. The person who redeemed the debtor only purchased the right to take the debtor out of prison, not the debtor’s actual release. The redeemer had to walk back to the prison cell and the debtor had to follow the redeemer out to daylight. Now the debtor had the right, at any time during the process, if they did not recognize the redeemer or did not want to follow the redeemer, to walk back to the prison cell. So it wasn’t until the debtor reached daylight - crossed over the threshold of the door to the prison - that they were actually “Saved.”* This is what the ancient authors of Sacred Scripture were referring to when they used the terms redemption and salvation.

It’s like that with Jesus. He paid the price (redeemed us) but we can refuse to take his hand and follow him to the threshold of the prison door which Catholics believe comes at death. At any time while we are walking, we can let go of his hand and walk back to the cell. That is the choice we make - to take hold of his hand. But the road he leads us on is not easy and we can choose to let go of Jesus the redeemers hand at any time. Sometimes the road is so rough that we have to just close our eyes and hold on tight, praying, “Jesus, please don’t let go!!!” And we do our part, hold on to his hand tightly, by getting up early and going to Mass on weekdays to receive the Eucharist, by going to frequent confession, by going to Bible study and by prayer, prayer, prayer. This is why Paul could tell us that we were purchased for a price and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

So there is a choice to be made and work to be done on our part.

***His divine power has bestowed on us *everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you. (2 Peter 1:4-11) Peter learned about loyalty, faith and the work to be done the hard way, didn’t he? The terms “Make every effort” and “Supplement” sounds like a spiritual fitness plan with virtue, knowlege, self-control, etc as the supplements. Sound’s like Gold’s Gym when he says “Make your election firm.” But Peter acknowleges that it is all because of God’s divine power.

I’m rambling a bit but it is a beautiful subject to meditate on along with the faith of the martyrs. It is clear to me that to say that our persistence and endurance in the face of great temptation has no merit toward our salvation is to ignore huge sections of scripture.

-Tim-