Romans 8:26-27 - Speaking in tongues?

[japhy]

In another thread in a separate forum of this site, it was mentioned that some members in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal use Romans 8:26-27 in support of speaking in tongues despite no one understand the words. I disagree with this interpretation, based on the context of the passage (Romans 8:19-27).

In my opinion, Romans 8:26 is not a proof-text for speaking in incomprehensible tongues, since speaking in tongues is a form of speech, and Paul is writing here than the Spirit intercedes for us when we do not know how to pray “with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech”. In the context of Romans 8:19-27, Romans 8:26-27 seems to explain how we “groan inwardly” along with the rest of creation in ways imperceptible to the ears. It doesn’t seem to me to mention speaking in tongues.

Anyone care to comment?

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought it did refer to speaking in tongues (incomprehensibly) but you had better have someone there with the gift of interpretation (of tongues) or else you’re treading on thin ice.

1st Corinthians, chapter 12, verse 10 says, “…to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.”

My problem is that people think they can call up this gift at will. The Holy Spirit is not a puppet that we can call up whenever we wish to. The Holy Spirit works this Gift as He sees fit. So if someone thinks they can do it any time they wish, it’s time for me to get out of there.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I am glad that this is brought up because I have needed to try to understand the “speaking in tongues” from a Catholic perspective. I have read some on it since I have been a Catholic, but I have yet to get the whole purpose of it, or to even understand the substance of it.

 

[DaveBj]

Some pentecostals that I used to listen to in a previous life parsed the Greek of that verse as “groanings that cannot be uttered in intelligible speech,” meaning that they could be uttered in untelligible speech. Go figure.

Actually, this has become my favorite passage on tongue (and I was raised Pentecostal):

1 Cor 14:13-19 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all, yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (NKJV)

Come to think of it, we could have used an interpreter during the Intercessions at the Pope’s Nationals Park Mass. Don’t know about the Yankee Stadium Mass; didn’t see it.

DaveBj

 

[joseph_virgen]

this bit of information is a bit hazy, but i seem to recall a priest going to africa to aid a poor tribe. it is said that following his arrival, and upon waking up the following morniing, he knew the language of the tribe as if he had been born there.

that’s all i remember. no spacifics. wish i had more. sorry.

 

[FranciscoIsrael]

Shalom!

I speak in tongues and I am happy that someone cares to post a thread on speaking in tongues!

The Bible says that we should not forbid the speaking in tongues;

1 Cor 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and FORBID NOT to speak with tongues.

The speaking in tongues is the first gift of the Holy Spirit, notice that on Pentecost the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles and they began to speak in tongues. Some may say that they were speaking in other languages but there are only 12 of them how could they be speaking 15 other languages?

The speaking in tongues should be practiced during Holy Mass so that the whole congregation can edify themselves and excercise their spirit and improve their worship.

 

[japhy]

The speaking in tongues is the first gift of the Holy Spirit, notice that on Pentecost the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles and they began to speak in tongues. Some may say that they were speaking in other languages but there are only 12 of them how could they be speaking 15 other languages?

I’m not sure if it was only the Apostles present at Pentecost; Acts 1 can give the impression that Mary and many other disciples were present too.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Speaking in tongues is not a requirement of faith. God hands out gifts to help us and/or other people. I once heard some penticostle types tell me that if I didn’t speak in tongues, then I wasn’t saved. And THAT isn’t required by God.

 

[NotWorthy]

Shalom!

I speak in tongues and I am happy that someone cares to post a thread on speaking in tongues!

The Bible says that we should not forbid the speaking in tongues;

1 Cor 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and FORBID NOT to speak with tongues.

The speaking in tongues is the first gift of the Holy Spirit, notice that on Pentecost the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles and they began to speak in tongues. Some may say that they were speaking in other languages but there are only 12 of them how could they be speaking 15 other languages?

The speaking in tongues should be practiced during Holy Mass so that the whole congregation can edify themselves and excercise their spirit and improve their worship.

But fransisco, what does it say about speaking in tongues when no one is around to translate?

Also, do you feel you are able to speak in tongues at will, or does the Holy Spirit choose the right time to fill you with this gift?

 

[BRB]

I

1st Corinthians, chapter 12, verse 10 says, “…to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.”

.

The Pentecost event seems to of been a phenomenon unlike what Charasmatics claim they experience.

I think it was a one shot wonder … used by God to get the Church off to a sensational startup. Even 20-30 year later, we don’t see Paul making much of it … and actually discouraging the women from getting carried away with emotional utterances.

Also … look at how those with evil intensions hoped to make use of the gift for moneymaking magic acts.

I reread Roman passage thread is about. Its not about speaking in tongues … its about what every Christian experiences on weekly basis when in deep prayer/meditation.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Pentecost event seems to of been a phenomenon unlike what Charasmatics claim they experience.

I think it was a one shot wonder … used by God to get the Church off to a sensational startup. Even 20-30 year later, we don’t see Paul making much of it … and actually discouraging the women from getting carried away with emotional uterances.

Also … look at how those with evil intensions hoped to make use of the gift for moneymaking magic acts.

I agree that it should be taken with a grain of salt in most cases. But I know some very wonderful people that have been blessed with this gift, although they claim they can’t control it (which is a “warning sign” in my book - you shouldn’t claim to be able to control the Holy Spirit by using this gift at any time! ). Like I said, a friend of mine has had this experience and I know the guy well enough to know he’s not faking it.

So yeah, I agree it is a little-used gift - one that is easily abused, but it is a gift nonetheless.

Your example of those with evil intentions in hopes to make money could be used on any other gift of the Holy Spirit, or have you not turned on any of the Televangelists shows lately?

 

[BRB]

have you not turned on any of the Televangelists shows lately?

I’ve been in Pentecostal meetings and observed the events firsthand. It was mainly the women, talking gibberish. No one was able to interpret … would of been next to impossible, since 4-5 people at once were talking.

Did the people talking really believe they were empowered … or was it just emotional prattle ? I see why Paul was not one to recommend in letters to Churches.

 

[NotWorthy]

I’ve been in Pentecostal meetings and observed the events firsthand. It was mainly the women, talking gibberish. No one was able to interpret … would of been next to impossible, since 4-5 people at once were talking.

Did the people talking really believe they were empowered … or was it just emotional prattle ? I see why Paul was not one to recommend in letters to Churches.

Yes, the Pentecostals can really scare one away from that sort of thing. That stuff is whack! But that doesn’t place all “speaking in tongues” as gibberish.

The friend that I have, a Charismatic Catholic, truly believes that it happened to him. I’ve worked with this guy on a retreat team, and I really see the Lord working through him. He’s never done it around us, nor has he tried to force it down our throats. He knows it’s not for everyone, but he loves to attend the charismatic services in Lake Charles, LA.

On the other hand, at my son’s Confirmation retreat recently, the retreat leader said she prays in tongues from time to time and started chanting “La, la, la, la… la, la, la, la”. That was gibberish. I think she’s a good woman doing a wonderful thing for the Lord, but she’s misguided in her tongues schtick. I wish she’d never brought it up to 14 year olds, but otherwise, her group put on a wonderful retreat.

I place it under the same scenario as Peter in Matthew 16. Here he is, receiving blessings from Christ and an awesome commission. And then moments later, he pulls the stunt when he’s thinking from a worldly view, rather than a heavenly view, and gets roundly chastised by Jesus. But yet, he’d lead the New Covenant Church into the new age. This retreat group that worked my son’s Confirmation retreat, a group of mostly young adults, does a lot of wonderful things, but not everything they do is guided by God.

 

[BRB]

Yes, the Pentecostals can really scare one away from that sort of thing. .

I think many are scared of the idea of the H.S. … fearful they will be moved by it in ways they can’t control, and it might embarrass them in front of friends / family. Modern day folk are very fearful of idea of spirit possession … not sure if tongues might not be of satanic origins.

This is unfortunate … and keeps many away from the Churches or even inhibits them investigating religion.

Even some of faith believe H.S. is only manifested in speaking in tongues. Anytime they read of spiriual matters in Bible … they block out the true message on H.S.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think many are scared of the idea of the H.S. … fearful they will be moved by it in ways they can’t control, and it might embarrass them in front of friends / family. Modern day folk are very fearful of idea of spirit possession … not sure if tongues might not be of satanic origins.

This is unfortunate … and keeps many away from the Churches or even inhibits them investigating religion.

Even some of faith believe H.S. is only manifested in speaking in tongues. Anytime they read of spiriual matters in Bible … they block out the true message on H.S.

That is a sad thought, for everything Holy in us comes from the Holy Spirit!

I guess it comes from fear of the unknown. We feel we know a lot about Jesus (boy, that’s a crock) and very little of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BRB]

That is a sad thought, for everything Holy in us comes from the Holy Spirit!

I guess it comes from fear of the unknown. We feel we know a lot about Jesus (boy, that’s a crock) and very little of the Holy Spirit.

Fear of the 3rd person of Trinity causes some to be only Theoretical Believers. Many in Protestant churches won’t touch the H.S. for themselves. They walk around w/o emotions while at church … the Frozen Chosen !

They say/believe H.S. was only present at Pentecost … and not active in today’s modern world, except maybe it may be going on at the Pentecostal Church we don’t know for sure}.

They totally tune out Christ’s instruction on need for rebirth by water & H.S. Yes, they will get baptized with Trinitarian language … they hear that part just fine, but ask them about the H.S. and they are unclear as to how it is manifested outside of historical or pentecostal churches tongues.

 

[japhy]

The only tongue I ask for is my own when I am reading Scripture at Mass. I pray to the Holy Spirit and the prophet/evangelist who wrote the books I’m about to read from at the beginning of Mass, that I might proclaim Scripture eloquently and clearly, to the edification of the faithful and the glory of God.

 

[NotWorthy]

Fear of the 3rd person of Trinity causes some to be only Theoretical Believers. Many in Protestant churches won’t touch the H.S. for themselves. They walk around w/o emotions while at church … the Frozen Chosen !

They say/believe H.S. was only present at Pentecost … and not active in today’s modern world, except maybe it may be going on at the Pentecostal Church [we don’t know for sure}.

They totally tune out Christ’s instruction on need for rebirth by water & H.S. Yes, they will get baptized with Trinitarian language … they hear that part just fine, but ask them about the H.S. and they are unclear as to how it is manifested outside of historical or pentecostal churches tongues.

If they are doing this, they are totally ignoring Jesus’ Farewell Address in John chapter 13-15 (or so).
[/QUOTE]

 

[Christy_Beth]

This only goes to show us how often we often make mistakes/create misunderstandings. I think that some people want to be in the middle of things. Like, “Look at me, I’m so much better than you!” “You aren’t saved because you don’t speak in tongues.”

My ex was penticostal. We met when we were both stationed in Germany. He got transferred in Dec. 1983 and I got out of the army in March 1984. During that time in between, I attended a gathering of penticostals at the chapel. That’s where I first heard of this nonsense. One woman even spoke a little gibberish, claiming she was speaking in tongues and could control it. The whole business scared me.

I think one thing I was especially disturbed by was the judgmentalism. And was that awful!! My ex refused to read anything if it wasn’t XXX rated. Yet, at church he would take part in the condemnation of others. He even said that he always got what he prayed for when he spoke in tongues.

 

[FranciscoIsrael]

Well, I speak in tongues at my own free will.
Sometimes I even sing in tongues.
I feel great when i do that.
Speaking in tounges DOES NOT SAVE anyone!
Baptism also DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE!