Romans 8:26-27 - Speaking in tongues?

[japhy]

Well, I speak in tongues at my own free will. Sometimes I even sing in tongues. I feel great when i do that. Speaking in tounges DOES NOT SAVE anyone! Baptism also DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE!

Really? Baptism is a sacrament, speaking in tongues is not, and last I checked, baptism does save us (cf. 1 Pet. 3:21). That is not to say that everyone who is baptized is saved, but baptism does cleanse us from original sin and our past sins, putting us in a pristine state of grace.

Please explain what you mean about baptism not saving.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

After being with Charismatics for many years in the UM Church I take a more practical approach, one with which I believe St. Paul would agree. While I have spoken in tongues on ocassion it is not a regular part of my devotion. Here’s how I have made peace with this phenomonon.

An old holiness preacher I knew used to say: “I don’t care how high they jump or even whether they jump. What I wish to know is how straight they walk when they land.”

Speaking in tongues doesn’t bother me unless the speaker shows by his unfruitful walk that it is all a show. I have seen people who speak in tongues and are very fruitful. I praise God for the fruitfulness and rejoice if their blessing brings a blessing. I’ve seen people who did not speak in tongues but are powerfully devoted to God in every way and lead a very fruitful life. I praise God for all the blessings that their lives bring to the world.

I have seen people who speak in tongues and who don’t speak in tongues do that which is evil. This approach may or may not show that I have the gift of discerning of spirits. I do not know. What I do know is that it brought a sense of peace to me and to the congregations I serve and one fewer thing I have to judge on this earth.

CDL

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, I speak in tongues at my own free will.
Sometimes I even sing in tongues.
I feel great when i do that.
Speaking in tounges DOES NOT SAVE anyone!
Baptism also DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE!

So, my friend, you have control over the Holy Spirit? You can just “whip Him out” at will? If so, I’m impressed, because I wasn’t aware that’s how this works. Also, do you have an interpreter when you speak in tongues.

Even Peter was told that the Holy Spirit would come when He was needed. He wasn’t told that the Holy Spirit would guide his speech every time he preached.

 

[NotWorthy]

Please explain what you mean about baptism not saving.

Fransisco said Baptism ALONE does not save someone. If you think you’ve reached Eternal Life simply because you were baptized, and now can live the live you desire, then your theory is in error, not Fransisco’s. I think that’s what he meant.

 

[japhy]

Fransisco said Baptism ALONE does not save someone. If you think you’ve reached Eternal Life simply because you were baptized, and now can live the live you desire, then your theory is in error, not Fransisco’s. I think that’s what he meant.

He didn’t say “baptism alone”. And I certainly don’t think that baptism is a free ride. But it’s only a small step from “baptism doesn’t save” to “baptism is a work” to “baptism isn’t necessary”.

I don’t even know why he brought up baptism. Perhaps because it’s in your signature?

 

[NotWorthy]

After being with Charismatics for many years in the UM Church I take a more practical approach, one with which I believe St. Paul would agree. While I have spoken in tongues on ocassion it is not a regular part of my devotion. Here’s how I have made peace with this phenomonon.

An old holiness preacher I knew used to say: “I don’t care how high they jump or even whether they jump. What I wish to know is how straight they walk when they land.”

Speaking in tongues doesn’t bother me unless the speaker shows by his unfruitful walk that it is all a show. I have seen people who speak in tongues and are very fruitful. I praise God for the fruitfulness and rejoice if their blessing brings a blessing. I’ve seen people who did not speak in tongues but are powerfully devoted to God in every way and lead a very fruitful life. I praise God for all the blessings that their lives bring to the world.

I have seen people who speak in tongues and who don’t speak in tongues do that which is evil. This approach may or may not show that I have the gift of discerning of spirits. I do not know. What I do know is that it brought a sense of peace to me and to the congregations I serve and one fewer thing I have to judge on this earth.

CDL

Speaking in tongues is a charism. It imparts no grace upon the speaker, but is meant for the audience, to get them to believe. Hence, a speaker could be living in sin and still truly speak in tongues.

To help me explain, think of a priest. A priest could be shacked up with a woman and living a life of debauchery. But when he consecrates the host at Mass, it is just as valid as if Pope Benedict were there, and no less holy.

So, I thik judging a person’s ability to speak in tongues by “how straight he walks when he lands” (I do love that quote, though) I think is in error. God has often used the sinful to further his Will.

 

[guanophore]

I thought it did refer to speaking in tongues (incomprehensibly) but you had better have someone there with the gift of interpretation (of tongues) or else you’re treading on thin ice.

1st Corinthians, chapter 12, verse 10 says, “…to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.”

My problem is that people think they can call up this gift at will. The Holy Spirit is not a puppet that we can call up whenever we wish to. The Holy Spirit works this Gift as He sees fit. So if someone thinks they can do it any time they wish, it’s time for me to get out of there.

The Spirit gives to everyone. Once a person has received the gift, it is up to the individual to choose to operate it. Otherwise, it would be “puppetlike”. What Paul is admonishing in Cor. is for the believers to choose to operate the gift decently and in order.

There is variety of tongues that is used as a private prayer language. It’s purpose is to build up the individual believer, much like the devotion of praying the Rosary. It does not require an interpreter

Many people are afraid of this gift because it requires complete trust in the HS, a practice with is not customary to many. It is also non-liturgical, in the sense that it it spontaneous.

1 Cor 14:1-2
2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

This is often called “praying in tongues” to distinguish it from the “speaking” that is used in a public venue, and which is required to have an interpretation.

 

[guanophore]

Shalom!

I speak in tongues and I am happy that someone cares to post a thread on speaking in tongues!

The Bible says that we should not forbid the speaking in tongues;

1 Cor 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and FORBID NOT to speak with tongues.

The speaking in tongues is the first gift of the Holy Spirit, notice that on Pentecost the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles and they began to speak in tongues. Some may say that they were speaking in other languages but there are only 12 of them how could they be speaking 15 other languages?

The speaking in tongues should be practiced during Holy Mass so that the whole congregation can edify themselves and excercise their spirit and improve their worship.

I have seen this practiced in Divine Liturgy, but it is very easy to abuse, as Paul demonstrates in Corinthians. In any case, the purpose of the Mass is to edify the Lord, not ourselves. We become edified as we join with Him mystically at the foot of the cross. Exercise of the spirit and improvement of worship can better be done outside of Mass, in my opinion. There is no better worship than to offering of the sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[guanophore]

But fransisco, what does it say about speaking in tongues when no one is around to translate?

Also, do you feel you are able to speak in tongues at will, or does the Holy Spirit choose the right time to fill you with this gift?

These are very good questions. I would say that the answer to the first one is that a private prayer language does not require translation, as it’s purpose is to edify the individual:

1 Cor 14:3-4
“He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself…”

To the second I think the best answer is that once the gift is given, it is constantly available. However, it would not be approproate to begin praying aloud in a heavenly language in a board meeting, so yes, it is under the discretion of the individual. It is as if one is connected to a well, and one can choose to use the pump, or not.

I agree that it should be taken with a grain of salt in most cases. But I know some very wonderful people that have been blessed with this gift, although they claim they can’t control it (which is a “warning sign” in my book - you shouldn’t claim to be able to control the Holy Spirit by using this gift at any time! ). Like I said, a friend of mine has had this experience and I know the guy well enough to know he’s not faking it.

So yeah, I agree it is a little-used gift - one that is easily abused, but it is a gift nonetheless.

I am curious to know more about the “lack of control”. I will agree that the Spirit moves where He will:

1 Cor 14:31-33
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

When he says that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophet, it means that the use of the gift is subject to the will of the individual in whom it operates. A person doesn’t just “burst out” with a prophesy against their will, or else it is not of God. We do see this happening in the NT, but it is always demonic in source.

Speaking in tongues is a charism. It imparts no grace upon the speaker, but is meant for the audience, to get them to believe. Hence, a speaker could be living in sin and still truly speak in tongues.

I disagree about the edification of the believer. I agree that all the varieties of tongues are charisms of the Spirit, and that the public use of speaking in tongues is to edify the Body. I also agree that people can be living in sin and still have the gift of tongues. In fact,

Rom 11:29
“For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

A person who has fallen from grace is still sealed by the HS in baptism, but has lost the protection of that seal, which is rooted in grace. When one chooses to repent and be reconciled with God, the gift then operates as it was intended to do.

To help me explain, think of a priest. A priest could be shacked up with a woman and living a life of debauchery. But when he consecrates the host at Mass, it is just as valid as if Pope Benedict were there, and no less holy.

Yes, but his lack of a good witness will affect the way the gospel is preached, through his poor daily behaviors. It does malign and detract from the message, just as the misuse of all the gifts will do.

So, I thik judging a person’s ability to speak in tongues by “how straight he walks when he lands” (I do love that quote, though) I think is in error. God has often used the sinful to further his Will.

Jesus said we will know them by their fruits. If people enter into worship, and then come back walking a crooked walk, something is amiss. If I pray in tongues for an hour, then turn around and use that same tongue to curse someone, any edification I may have brought to myself is forfeited.

 

[FranciscoIsrael]

I would like to respond to Japhy and also to Not Worthy.

Japhy,
Baptism is a sacrament, where in the Bible does it say that Baptism is a sacrment? It is regarded by the church as a sacrament. Anyway, baptism does not save you because Jesus is the one who saves you. Jesus died so that you might live. Baptism is being bron again with water one of the expects in
John 3:5.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

It does not mention here at all the word baptism, it just says
being born of water. It does not mean baptism. Baptism however is dying and rising up again not reborn.

If baptism saves you then Jesus should not have come to Earth and die for us. John the baptist could have easily spread the news of baptism and everyone should be baptized to go to heaven. But God send His son, His very own son.

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Even here it does not mention baptism but only believe,which is faith. Jesus death would be useless if baptism could save us.
Baptism is annoucing to the physical world and spiritual world that you are now a member of the Universal Church. The Universal Church is the Body of Christ no matter what denomination or views it holds. I hope that answers your question.

To Not Worthy

Speaking in tongues is something which can be controlled.

1 Corinthians 14:6
6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

Paul could control the gift of tongues. It is a gift where you can control and speak anytime you want. I have prayed for the gift of interpretation and my charismatic leader says that I now have the gift of interpretaion because everytime when they speak in tongues I will feel like i know what they are saying and I will just say it out aloud for everyone to hear.

I have a question; Why is your name “NotWorthy”?

We are worthless I know, but you are in Christ, it is no longer youwho live but Christ who live s in You, so calling yourself not worthy is calling Jesus NOT WORTHY.

 

[NotWorthy]

To Not Worthy

Speaking in tongues is something which can be controlled.

1 Corinthians 14:6
6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

Paul could control the gift of tongues. It is a gift where you can control and speak anytime you want. I have prayed for the gift of interpretation and my charismatic leader says that I now have the gift of interpretaion because everytime when they speak in tongues I will feel like i know what they are saying and I will just say it out aloud for everyone to hear.

Fransisco, you and guanaphore have shown me that I am woefully ignorant on the gift of speaking in tongues. I’m going to study what you guys have shown me and re-evaluate my thoughts on it. I’m not sold yet, but it’s through no fault of yours and guanaphore’s (man, he needs an acceptable nickname!). It’s just going to take me taking the time to study. I thank you both for your patience with me.

I have a question; Why is your name “NotWorthy”?

We are worthless I know, but you are in Christ, it is no longer youwho live but Christ who live s in You, so calling yourself not worthy is calling Jesus NOT WORTHY.

I’m well aware that I, a child of God, live in Christ, but I am totally unworthy of the unconditional Love that I receive from Him.

I’m always struck and humbled by the words we say at Mass - "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the words and I shall be healed". Of course, it is kind of way-cool to be able to say my name aloud each and every day (well, almost every day) at Mass!!!

 

[japhy]

Baptism is a sacrament, where in the Bible does it say that Baptism is a sacrment? It is regarded by the church as a sacrament.

You’re approaching dangerous territory. The Church did not “make up” sacraments: they were instituted by Christ himself. (cf. CCC 1210)

Anyway, baptism does not save you because Jesus is the one who saves you. Jesus died so that you might live.

Of course the only reason baptism has any saving power is because of Jesus Christ! We’re baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (cf. Matt 28:19); the apostles were given this commission only after Jesus’s Passion, into which we are baptized (baptized into his death, rising with him).

Baptism is being bron again with water one of the expects in John 3:5. It does not mention here at all the word baptism, it just says being born of water. It does not mean baptism. Baptism however is dying and rising up again not reborn. If baptism saves you then Jesus should not have come to Earth and die for us. John the baptist could have easily spread the news of baptism and everyone should be baptized to go to heaven. But God send His son, His very own son.

The Church interprets John 3:5 to be about baptism; this is not something new, it’s the same thing the Church Fathers saw in John 3:5.

Here are a handful of quotes from the Catechism that link baptism to John 3:5…
(720) John’s baptism was for repentance; baptism in water and the Spirit will be a new birth.

(1215) This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

(1225) In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. … From then on, it is possible “to be born of water and the Spirit” in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

(1238) The baptismal water is consecrated by a prayer of epiclesis (either at this moment or at the Easter Vigil). The Church asks God that through his Son the power of the Holy Spirit may be sent upon the water, so that those who will be baptized in it may be “born of water and the Spirit.”

(1257) The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

(1262) The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

(2790) There is only one God, and he is recognized as Father by those who, through faith in his only Son, are reborn of him by water and the Spirit.

Even here it does not mention baptism but only believe,which is faith. Jesus death would be useless if baptism could save us. Baptism is annoucing to the physical world and spiritual world that you are now a member of the Universal Church. The Universal Church is the Body of Christ no matter what denomination or views it holds. I hope that answers your question.

Again, baptism is only meaningful because Jesus died and was raised. It’s not something apart from faith in Jesus, it is part of the faith.

Where does the Bible say that baptism is an announcement to the world?

What is this “Universal Church” you speak of? When we are baptized, we are baptized into the one Church of Christ, and that, as Vatican II reaffirmed, is the Catholic Church, with its Pope, Bishops, Priests, and lay faithful. The Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, is the Catholic Church, not some invisible “universal Church”. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.

 

[japhy]

I have a question; Why is your name “NotWorthy”? We are worthless I know, but you are in Christ, it is no longer youwho live but Christ who live s in You, so calling yourself not worthy is calling Jesus NOT WORTHY.

I’m really quite baffled. He’s not calling Jesus unworthy, any more than you’re calling Jesus “Francisco Israel”, or any more than I’m calling Jesus “Just Another Perl Hacker Young’n”. Heaven forbid, if I call myself a sinner…!

 

[Nan_S]

A comment from the interpreter’s viewpoint:

I have had a lot of training in languages and considerable experience in learning to communicate intelligently with people when I don’t necessarily understand their words. I observe gestures, vocal tone, emotion, word patterns, and other factors. Travel to another country and try to buy an inter-city bus pass when you don’t know their language, and you figure out real quickly how to interpret.

If someone is truly “speaking” and not just “babbling” it is possible for one with the gift of interpretation (which I believe is my gift) to make some sense of the message. I have heard “speech” and fragments of speech resembling intelligible languages from a few of those who believe they are tongue-speakers. It’s rare, but occasionally it happens. And when another interpreter is present who gives the translation of the speech, I find that the message I heard from the tongue-speaker was the same message the other interpreter heard. That validates the interpretation.

Now for me, genuinely speaking in “unknown tongues” is not something that easily slips from my lips. I do not babble. Tongues / languages that are genuine have intelligible words, with some sort of grammer, syntax, and structure. Yet even the disorganized speech of human infants that we call “babbling” normally has more genuine intelligent meaning behind it than the la-la-la-la ba-bo-ba-bo we-wa-we-wa noises we hear from most adult “tongue-speakers”.

I have been on retreats with both Catholic Charismatics and with Pentecostals. At both I was exhorted to “open yourself to the gift of speaking in tongues” and to start babbling like most of the rest of the poeple there.

When I explaned that the Holy Spirit gave unique gifts as He willed and that my gift was the Gift of Interpretation, I was pooh-poohed. They wanted to believe that babbling was speech, but they simply didn’t want to believe when I told them I could interpret.

So I started speaking in Latin around the Pentecostals. None of them could understand anything I said (“Agnus dei qui tollis peccatta mundi…”) and I fit right in.

 

[BRB]

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

It does not mention here at all the word baptism, it just says
being born of water. It does not mean baptism. Baptism however is dying and rising up again not reborn.

If baptism saves you then Jesus should not have come to Earth and die for us. John the baptist could have easily spread the news of baptism and everyone should be baptized to go to heaven. But God send His son, His very own son.

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Even here it does not mention baptism but only believe,which is faith. Jesus death would be useless if baptism could save us.
Baptism is annoucing to the physical world and spiritual world that you are now a member of the Universal Church. The Universal Church is the Body of Christ no matter what denomination or views it holds. I hope that answers your question.

.

Clearly Baptism is a necessary part of Christian rebirth … as instituted by John, and further emphasized by Christ. What’s the difference in the two ? Christ baptizes us with both water and H.S.

Our initial receipt of H.S. comes when in faith one is baptized in name of Trinity. Later, other powerful sacramental events can instill H.S. into a believer … confirmation, laying on of hands, eucharist, etc.

However, the Church does not teach that these later sacraments would be efficious, unless someone first undergoes water baptism.

Jesus taught us to these key things 1.) Have faith that He is the Christ and One with the Father 2.) to be baptised in water for remission of sin 3) to be baptized in H.S… to receive power from on high 4). to proclaim the gospel to all the world 5). to be obedient to Him to the end of our days.

W/O baptism in water … you’re stuck at step 1.
Listen to Mary … “DO WHAT HE TELLS You”

 

[NotWorthy]

I have a question; Why is your name “NotWorthy”?

We are worthless I know, but you are in Christ, it is no longer youwho live but Christ who live s in You, so calling yourself not worthy is calling Jesus NOT WORTHY.

I had one more bit of (name removed by moderator)ut to put into this question.

The biggest splinter in my eye tends to be my ego. I’ve always been cursed with self-confidence and it’s made it hard to be humble. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a special person, but everything seemed to come easy to me - school, music, sports, friends, etc… Sadly, I would have never won the “Blessed are the Poor in Spirit” Award in High School.

So, in reminding myself that I am not worthy of His immense Love, it also reminds me that nothing I have is mine; it’s all a gift from God. With constant thanks and praise to God for all the gifts he’s given me, I wish to always remember that even with all the gifts and blessings I’ve received, I am absolutely nothing, if I don’t have Him in my life!

I don’t know, maybe my logic also is not worthy.

 

[BRB]

The biggest splinter in my eye tends to be my ego. I’ve always been cursed with self-confidence and it’s made it hard to be humble. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a special person,.

Big egos … when channelled correctly by H.S. … transform one into a worthy Zealot. Be glad you are now confident in the Lord. Every Christian is a special person / child of God … just waiting to take flight on wings of faith & reason. You don’t back down from a challenge, and you don’t accept anything – w/o testing for truth

 

[NotWorthy]

Big egos … when channelled correctly by H.S. … transform one into a worthy Zealot. Be glad you are now confident in the Lord. Every Christian is a special person / child of God … just waiting to take flight on wings of faith & reason. You don’t back down from a challenge, and you don’t accept anything – w/o testing for truth

God Bless you, brother (I assume you are a brother?).

 

[puzzleannie]

In another thread in a separate forum of this site, it was mentioned that some members in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal use Romans 8:26-27 in support of speaking in tongues despite no one understand the words. I disagree with this interpretation, based on the context of the passage (Romans 8:19-27).
?

the whole point about the exercise of the gift of tongues among Charismatic Catholics is that yes, in order for the gift to be valid, there is someone who interprets tongues. Just because everyone present (or not present) would not understand what was said, does not necessarily mean that there is no one able to interpret and that from that, as Romans further advises, the gifts can be discerned properly.

when we are speaking of praying in tongues, a praise language uttered by those praying in the Spirit, whose meaning may not be readily understandable to those present, even the speaker, since that prayer comes from the Spirit (again, if properly discerned by the spiritual director or leader), then whether or not those present understand it is irrelevant. I don’t understand what is going on when I attend the Spanish, Polish or Hungarian Mass, but that has no effect whatever on the validity of the Mass or language used.