Romans 8: 28 - 30

[COPLAND_3]

This is the 2nd reading for Sunday’s Mass. Predestination is a hot topic! But the key is “foreknowledge.” God has knowledge of the past, present, and future, and He knows how we are gling to use our Free-will, so then in turn He has the ability to choose those whom He knows are going to follow Him! Here is a link to commentary to this passage litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/july+27

 

[NoelFitz]

FreeWill vs Predestination is a contentious ussue since the Reformation.

There is also the problem of Providence. God is Almighty. He knows we are going to sin. He could easily prevent it. Does he allow people, whom he loves, to sin and hence end up in hell.

Does he really love people all with unconditional love and yet allow them to take the broad road to damnation?

 

[bbentrup]

FreeWill vs Predestination is a contentious ussue since the Reformation.

There is also the problem of Providence. God is Almighty. He knows we are going to sin. He could easily prevent it. Does he allow people, whom he loves, to sin and hence end up in hell.

Does he really love people all with unconditional love and yet allow them to take the broad road to damnation?

God’s love is incorruptible. That is the unshakeable premise for the man of faith. Still, this is a topic that makes everyone’s head spin, especially mine own. Check out: newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm from the Catholic Encyclopedia for an expert review of the topic.
Peace!

 

[COPLAND_3]

God created us and gave us the gift of Free-Will. He gives us the choice to love Him or not, He does not force us to. If He forced us to love Him then that would not be true love. We all want people to love us because they want to, not because they have to.

 

[NoelFitz]

Bbentrup

You wrote:
God’s love is incorruptible

I do not understand this.

I did a course in Jerusalem some year’s ago and a Jewish lady in the class, whose family was wiped out in the Shoa, said she could not understand God’s providence.

If a parent sees a child walking towards a hole in the ground and lets the child fall into it, pointing out that the child had free will, is that parent not lacking in love.

Is it similar with God who allows us to sin, when we see evil as good (sub specie boni)?

Even the mafia can make us offers we cannot refuse. God if he wanted to could let us see that choosing evil is not in our best interest.

 

[COPLAND_3]

NoelFitz

Those are difficult questions. But we should give God more credit than that, He is a just God, and He judges with compassion. Those who go down the wrong road will be judged by God according to how they respond to God’s ways according to how clearly He has revealed Himself to them. Someone who takes the wrong road out of pure ignorance is going to be judged much differently than one who outright rejects all the signs from God and does things their way and not God’s way. There is a difference between being a sinner and being wicked. And God has done something for those “children walking towards a hole in the ground”, that is, He has spoken verbally to mankind, he has sent messengers (prophets and angels), and when that did not work He came down to earth and became like one of us and He died for our sins. We have the opportunity to accept that freely. We can receive the gift of baptism and have all of our sins washed away. And He has also given us the gift of Confession to take away those sins even after Baptism.

So God has made many attempts to keep His children from walking into that hole in the ground. He continually warns mankind of that hole in the ground, but mankind willfully chooses that hole over God.

 

[tm30]

FreeWill vs Predestination is a contentious ussue since the Reformation.

There is also the problem of Providence. God is Almighty. He knows we are going to sin. He could easily prevent it. Does he allow people, whom he loves, to sin and hence end up in hell.

Does he really love people all with unconditional love and yet allow them to take the broad road to damnation?

Love is not unconditional unless it can be rejected by the recipient. Love, God Himself, is a total pouring out of “self”. He poured Himself out and into Adam, and Adam rejected Him. He poured Himself out to all of humanity on the Cross, and humanity has rejected Him. If we expect God to usurp everyone’s free will and prevent them from walking the path to hell, then the sacrifice on the cross was nothing but a cheap (but painful) publicity stunt. Its importance diminishes almost to nothing. He could simply decide, “all sins are forgiven”, without going to the cross at all, without any talk of a “wide path” to hell. We could be entirely removed from responsibliity to one another and rest assured of our salvation – wait, that sounds familiar…

 

[tm30]

Bbentrup

You wrote:
God’s love is incorruptible

I do not understand this.

I did a course in Jerusalem some year’s ago and a Jewish lady in the class, whose family was wiped out in the Shoa, said she could not understand God’s providence.

If a parent sees a child walking towards a hole in the ground and lets the child fall into it, pointing out that the child had free will, is that parent not lacking in love.

Is it similar with God who allows us to sin, when we see evil as good (sub specie boni)?

Even the mafia can make us offers we cannot refuse. God if he wanted to could let us see that choosing evil is not in our best interest.

The assumption of the child walking towards the hole is that the child either a) doesn’t know he’s walking towards a hole, or b) doesn’t understand the outcome of falling into a hole. The Gospel gives everyone fair warning that a) there’s a hole, and b) at the bottom of that hole is eternal suffering.

Those who are ignorant - by no fault of their own - that they’re headed for a hole, will not suffer the same consequence. But to whom much is given…

God most definitely gave us an offer we can’t refuse! He became man and died a horrific death on the cross as proof of His love. If that can’t convince mankind of God’s mercy and the path to holiness, what do you propose will?

 

[NoelFitz]

Thank you for all the replies to my fairly negative post.

My own answer is that we cannot understand God. The clay cannot tell the potter what to do. Who has known the mind of the Lord?

 

[COPLAND_3]

NoelFitz

It’s totally understandable to question God, and to simply ask “WHY!” And it is very easy to develop a negative perspective for quite a few reasons. One reason is because we see so many bad things happen to innocent people. Another reason I believe that it is easy for people to have such emotions is because there are many people with good religious intentions who have tried to explain why bad things happen but they get it wrong, and then people learn those bad explanations and pass it on to where a lot of people have a misguided perception, The thing that I hate to hear is when some horrible evil thing happens to a little child and then somebody says something like “God made it happen for a reason” or “God has a plan.” NO, God had nothing to do with it! Those things are the work of the Devil and the result of the abuse of Free-Will. But God does take those victims to a place where there will never be pain or sorrow ever again, and he will judge those who commit such crimes.

 

[NoelFitz]

Copland3
Again, many thanks.

My main concern is that so many Catholics seem to be heading for hell.

Nowadays, in Ireland, it seems that the majority of Catholics practice contraception. Mass attendance is very low, about 1% in some parishes. Attendance at Mass by young people is particularly low. Very many Catholics live together outside marriage. Some Catholics attend Mass only at Christmas and Easter, when they receive Communion, possibly adding to their sins.

Are many of these folk in the state of mortal sin?

Is it still sinful to have intercourse outside marriage and to miss Mass on Sundays without a good excuse?

I cannot understand how a loving God would create a person whom he knows will be in hell for all eternity.

The only answer I have is that we cannot understand God.

We are all sinners and must hope in God’s mercy.

 

[COPLAND_3]

NoelFitz

I agree, it is very troubling how so many Cathoics take their faith so lightly. It is happening among our separated brethren (Protestants) too. I used to be in the ministry as a Southern Baptist, and I was troubled over the same kind of lack of religious commitment.

But you know, this ties in with what we have been discussing.
Because what takes lukewarm Christians and turns them into diehard saints? Unfortunately hard times and persecution. Seems like when God lets society go their own way and they stray away from moral responsibility, society reaps what it has sown and then bad things happen, then people start to wake up and churches start to fill up. Sep. 11th is a small example of that.

But you hit the nail on the head, God’s mercy is what we should all be begging God for.

 

[peary]

Bbentrup

You wrote:
I did a course in Jerusalem some year’s ago and a Jewish lady in the class, whose family was wiped out in the Shoa, said she could not understand God’s providence.

**So did my grandmother’s family. Could it be the wrong question we are asking? **

If a parent sees a child walking towards a hole in the ground and lets the child fall into it, pointing out that the child had free will, is that parent not lacking in love.

Maybe God doesn’t look upon us as children anymore?

Even the mafia can make us offers we cannot refuse. God if he wanted to could let us see that choosing evil is not in our best interest.

We can look all around us and see what our decisions have made of the world in which we live. Choosing evil is definitely not in our best interest.