Romans 8:28: Do all things work for good?

[ddiemer.catholic]

I was speaking with my friend Greg about Romans 8:28, “We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.” [NRSVCE]

In his RSV, he read, “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.”

"With" vs. "For"

• He says that because his translation uses the word “with”, it means that God works generally for the good of all mankind and will only be seen at the end of time.
• When I reviewed the GNBCE, KJV, NIV, ESV, and one other, they all used the word “for”, not “with”. And I told him so. What I gather from these other translations is that “with” and “for” in this passage are functionally equivalent in meaning.
• He then argued that God doesn’t work good for people who love him because he’s suffered significant setbacks in his own life and he knows of many others who’ve experienced pain, sickness, loss of family or job, etc.
• I asked him that if God doesn’t work all things for good, does God do things that are neutral or evil?

Corporate Good or Individual Good

• He likened this to a football team: all things work together for the good of the team, but not each player individually.
• I asked him that if all things work together for those who love God, why can’t he work all things together for my own good?

Not sure I’m doing a good job explaining here. Any help?

 

[MNathaniel]

I’m not totally clear about what the question is?

In Greek, Romans 8:28 reads:

Οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν τὸν Θεὸν πάντα συνεργεῖ εἰς ἀγαθόν, τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν.

I’ve bolded the word τοῖς (“to those”) in both places in the sentence where it shows up.

Alternately, if your question is about εἰς this word in the original Greek seems to be directional, as in ‘towards the good’.

Maybe it would be helpful if both of you referred back to the original Greek in an interlinear translator, rather than looking at English translations?

For example here:

https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-28.htm

 

[MNathaniel]

• He then argued that God doesn’t work good for people who love him because he’s suffered significant setbacks in his own life and he knows of many others who’ve experienced pain, sickness, loss of family or job, etc.
• I asked him that if God doesn’t work all things for good, does God do things that are neutral or evil?

I’ll also note, it sounds like his issue may not be a translation issue but a struggle with the problem of evil.

If he’s connecting the problem of evil to this passage though, I might ask him: did God works all things to the good for Jesus? (Yes, God did.) And yet Jesus suffered and died at the age of 33.

But Jesus is now alive again and in his resurrected body that will never die, ascended into heaven in glory.

God indeed works all things to the good. Its just that God has eternal goods in mind, not just temporary goods. And the point of this passage is that God can take even the evil done by humans and demons, and make something good out of it for those who cooperate with God. If your friend is looking for a prosperity gospel though, and is looking for all his goods to be external and material in this life, it sounds like he’s looked away from Christ on the cross. Because Christianity doesn’t teach that this life is the one where tears are wiped away; that’s the next life, for those who loved God here.

 

[runningdude]

“For” and “with” are both prepositions, with overlapping definitions that are highly context dependent. The equivalent Greek preposition likely overlaps both English words.

God indeed works for the good of his people, but his timeline isn’t ours.

Due to sin, we have a finite mortal life, with much suffering and death. Through Jesus, we have access to eternal life. God doesn’t create evils or setbacks, but even these he can use to advance his will; that is, our salvation. All things, even death, are subordinate to God.

 

[jochoa]

Perhaps ask him if he recognizes the Crucifixion of Jesus as…

1. Something that worked for the Good of Jesus?
2. Something that worked for the Good of those who love God?
3. A significant setback for Jesus?

 

[po18guy]

Our confusion stems from the fact that we are parsing sentences which were never meant to be linguistically dissected.

We have a Church to teach. For example, the Rev. George Leo Haydock commentary.

" Ver. 24, &c. For we are saved by hope, as it is the will of God we should be, waiting and hoping with patience for the things which we have not seen, which neither the eye hath seen, nor the ear hath heard, &c. 1 Cor. ii. 9. — And the spirit also helpeth our infirmity . . . asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. [4] If we understand this according to the common exposition, of the divine spirit of the Holy Ghost, the sense is, says S. Aug. that the Holy Ghost maketh us ask: but we may understand the spirit of God and his grace, diffused in our souls, and in particular that gift of the Holy Ghost, called the spirit of prayer, given to the new Christians, which taught them what to ask, and how to pray. See S. Chrys. Wi.

Ver. 28. To them that love God, all things work together unto good. All trials, temptations, afflictions, must be taken as coming from the hand of God, who ordains or permits them for the greater good of his elect. — For the good of those, who, according to his purpose [5] are called the saints. Lit. according to purpose: but it seems certain that to translate his purpose, is only to give the literal sense, if we compare this place with other texts, both in the Greek and Latin, where the same words signify according to God’s good will, or his eternal decree, and not according to the purpose, or will of men, as some expound it. Wi.

Ver. 29. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son, in suffering with Christ, in following his doctrine, in imitating his life. This foreknowledge of God, according to S. Augustin,[6] is not merely a foreseeing of what men will do by the assistance and graces of God’s ordinary providence, much less a foreseeing of what they will do by their own natural strength, as the Pelagian heretics pretended: but is a foreknowledge including an act of the divine will, and of his love towards his elect servants; (as to know in the Scriptures, when applied to God, is many times the same as to approve and love) God therefore hath foreseen or predestinated, or decreed that these elect, by the help of his special graces, and by the co-operation of their free-will, should be conformable to the image of his Son, that so his Son, even as man, might be the first-born, the chief, and the head of all that shall be saved. Wi. — God hath preordained that all his elect shall be conformable to the image of his Son. We must not here offer to dive into the secrets of God’s eternal election: only firmly believe that all our good, in time and eternity, flows originally from God’s free goodness; and all our evil from man’s free will. Ch."

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Greg’s problem is that while he believes that everything works for the good of everyone or other people, he doesn’t believe that in all things, God works for his personal good. It’s a personal problem and he’s twisting Scripture to fit his false belief.

 

[jochoa]

Ah, perhaps share with him the awesomeness of growing in humility.

I struggled with this teaching too, but as I grow in accepting it more fully, I am discovering deeper blessings because these are the times I learn how I can love God more.
On the other hand, when circumstances call out that I lack love for God (in particular, things I feel that are not working for my good), yet I reject the calling; I close myself off to the possibility of becoming a better child of God.

 

[po18guy]

He is not using bible alone. He is using “self alone” if his reading of his preferred translation arrives at his agreeable theology.

As is seen, translations are divided on this. Which is true? Actually, both but it must be read according to what the Apostles were taught by Jesus Christ.

Here is one solid interpretation, according to the Rev. George Leo Haydock bible Commentary:

Ver. 28. To them that love God, all things work together unto good. All trials, temptations, afflictions, must be taken as coming from the hand of God, who ordains or permits them for the greater good of his elect. — For the good of those, who, according to his purpose [5] are called the saints. Lit. according to purpose: but it seems certain that to translate his purpose, is only to give the literal sense, if we compare this place with other texts, both in the Greek and Latin, where the same words signify according to God’s good will, or his eternal decree, and not according to the purpose, or will of men, as some expound it. Wi.