Romans 8-9 and predestination

[suupah]

After reading Romans chapters 8-9 I see that Paul seems to be indicating that God foreknew all that would be saved and orchestrated our lives accordingly so that we would hear the word. It also seems to indicate that God creates us for whatever purpose he wants. Some he creates for damnation to show either 1. his great mercy or 2. his wrath.

What is the official catholic teaching on predestination as taught by Paul in Romans 8-9

thanks

 

[ryanoneil]

“Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. Predestination to grace means becoming a Christian. Predestination to glory means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Verbum]

Hi Suupah,

Firstly, the Bible must be read in the light of the doctrine of the Church that we retain our free will throughout out lives and into eternity. God’s knowledge does not condemn us; we condemn ourselves by the way we exercise our free will

This being said, we must also posit that God chose to create this world among an infinite number of possible worlds. He knew that by creating this particular world, some individuals would choose Good and others would choose Evil. God, an intelligent Being, had a purpose in creating this particular world. And each individual in it is called upon to help fulfil that purpose. We have to orient our free will so that it will contribute to God’s purpose

God is also Love. He wanted a world where His love would be reflected and love can only exist where there is free will.

Where Romans speaks of predestination as if He did not give sufficient grace to all humans, we should understand that God knows only the present time. To Him everything is happening at the same time. Knowing who will correspond to His grace, he prepares, in a simple, eternal act, glorification for the Good and retribution for the Evil.

Does this answer your concerns?

Verbum

.

 

[suupah]

Does this answer your concerns?

Verbum

Yes and No. It answers the part about free will and us retaining our free will though God already knows who will and will not accept him. But what about this passage:

Romans9:18-21
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?” But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?” Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?

Sounds to me like God can create people for noble or ignoble purposes as is his prerogative. Sounds like he indeed create some to be ignoble to show his mercy and/or wrath.

 

[davidv]

Yes and No. It answers the part about free will and us retaining our free will though God already knows who will and will not accept him. But what about this passage:

Sounds to me like God can create people for noble or ignoble purposes as is his prerogative. Sounds like he indeed create some to be ignoble to show his mercy and/or wrath.

God is Love, so nothing ignble can be attributed to Him. Anything ignobly must originate in our refusal to obey Him.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Suupah,

The question posed in the passage is the same as this modern one that we hear so often :

“Why did God create people who will go to hell?” And St.Paul’ s answer still fits. We cannot judge God. It is not our business to question why he created this particular one instead of one where everyone would be saved.

A similar question is the theme of the Book of Job. Why is it that the just may suffer and the unjust may prosper?. And the answer is similar : (Job 36, 22ff)

See, God is sublime in His strength; to what master shall we compare Him? Who showed Him the way to follow; who would dare tell him, “You acted badly”? … Yes God is so great that He is above our knowledge…

Still the fact remains that it is we who choose good or evil. It is the mystery of free will…

Verbum

 

[mikeledes]

Predestination in Catholic theology is not mere foreknowleldge of future events. God plays a far more active role than that. Here is an article explaining Catholic predestination:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

There are at least two basic understandings of predestination subscribed to by Catholics:

The Thomist:

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

and the Molinist:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

All Catholic theologians must subsribe to the following principles:

**But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians. But Thomists and Augustinians on the one hand, and Molinists and congruists on the other, differ in their interpretation of them. **

The above info is from:

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

God Bless,
Michael

 

[CindiA]

Yes and No. It answers the part about free will and us retaining our free will though God already knows who will and will not accept him. But what about this passage:

Sounds to me like God can create people for noble or ignoble purposes as is his prerogative. Sounds like he indeed create some to be ignoble to show his mercy and/or wrath.

Remember in the OT when Moses was trying to get Pharoah to let his people go? Remember the passage that says that God “hardened the heart of Pharoah”? Another passage states that Pharoah hardened his heart toward God. Well, which was it? It kinda, sorta sounds like predestination a bit. However, please revert back to the original language, the original audience, and the original writer. ALL must be considered when interpreting Holy Scripture. Did God harden Pharoah’s heart or did Pharoah harden his own heart against God? I submit to you that Pharoah hardened his own heart and God simply allowed it. In other words, God allowed “FREE WILL” to Pharoah the same as He does us today. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God does not create for noble or ignoble purposes. God has created all to be with Him out of His extreme love that we cannot understand. No, He certainly does not create any one to be damned.

 

[suupah]

Remember in the OT when Moses was trying to get Pharoah to let his people go? Remember the passage that says that God “hardened the heart of Pharoah”? Another passage states that Pharoah hardened his heart toward God. Well, which was it? It kinda, sorta sounds like predestination a bit. However, please revert back to the original language, the original audience, and the original writer. ALL must be considered when interpreting Holy Scripture. Did God harden Pharoah’s heart or did Pharoah harden his own heart against God? I submit to you that Pharoah hardened his own heart and God simply allowed it. In other words, God allowed “FREE WILL” to Pharoah the same as He does us today. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God does not create for noble or ignoble purposes. God has created all to be with Him out of His extreme love that we cannot understand. No, He certainly does not create any one to be damned.

That is well put and an excellent point. how do you interpret and explain what paul is saying here?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?

He seems to say that the potter can make a vessel for an ignoble purpose.

 

[ryanoneil]

That is well put and an excellent point. how do you interpret and explain what paul is saying here?

He seems to say that the potter can make a vessel for an ignoble purpose.

Paul is listing the objections of those who are saying: if God rules over faith through the principle of divine election, God cannot then accuse unbelievers of sin. Notice that he starts by saying “You will say to me then” . . . He is stating their objections for them and then answering. He responds by saying; “who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?”

Then he is stating to the objectors point, and I’m going to paraphrase to make the point: Who are you to say, why have you created me so?" And then he is posing another one of their objections. Doesn’t God have the right to make one person good and the other bad?

So, Paul isn’t explaining God’s ways, he is rejecting their argument by saying: you are insolent for placing humanity on a level with God.

Remember in verse 18 he is basically saying: those who refuse see or hear shall not see or hear. On the other hand, the same God who makes hard the heart can reconstruct it through the work of the holy spirit.

If we jump to verse 22 Paul is showing that God is far less arbitrary than appearances suggest, because God “endures with much patience” a person like Pharaoh.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[suupah]

Paul is listing the objections of those who are saying: if God rules over faith through the principle of divine election, God cannot then accuse unbelievers of sin. Notice that he starts by saying “You will say to me then” . . . He is stating their objections for them and then answering. He responds by saying; “who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?”

Then he is stating to the objectors point, and I’m going to paraphrase to make the point: Who are you to say, why have you created me so?" And then he is posing another one of their objections. Doesn’t God have the right to make one person good and the other bad?

So, Paul isn’t explaining God’s ways, he is rejecting their argument by saying: you are insolent for placing humanity on a level with God.

Remember in verse 18 he is basically saying: those who refuse see or hear shall not see or hear. On the other hand, the same God who makes hard the heart can reconstruct it through the work of the holy spirit.

If we jump to verse 22 Paul is showing that God is far less arbitrary than appearances suggest, because God “endures with much patience” a person like Pharaoh.

Peace,

Ryan

hmm, sounds a lot like the NAB notes

I think it basically says that God raised up Moses to display that mercy, and Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator.

 

[Melchior]

hmm, sounds a lot like the NAB notes

I think it basically says that God raised up Moses to display that mercy, and Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator.

You are right. The text is clear. Of course we need to keep in mind the God is the author of salvation history and uses primary and secondary causes. He is never the author of sin, but He still made pharoah and used him for a specific purpose. Predestination is Catholic dogma. There are a few view that the church allows people to hold because the issue is a mystery. I personally believe the Thomist and Augustinian positions are far more faithful to scripture than the molinist position. But when someone say predestination is foreknowledge they are simply wrong. Both words have different definitions. And those who are elect with be given the grace of God to persevere to the end because election is eternal. He does not actively reporbate people, that is the “natural” course for sinful man. So it is by His intervention that any of us will be saved. The Thomist view is that Christ death was sufficient for all but efficient only for the elect.

I have never heard a good explanation of this passage or other similar ones by those who reject the idea of predestination as foreknowledge.

But keep in mind it is a mystery and that the point of the passage. Who are we to question God? When someone tries to explain the idea away they are doing exactly what St. Paul is accusing those he is writing to of doing. He is the potter. We are the clay. If we keep that in balance with His mercy and love in Christ it only adds to God’s majesty and our unworthiness and how great His salvation is.

Mel

 

[PaperMoon]

After reading Romans chapters 8-9 I see that Paul seems to be indicating that God foreknew all that would be saved and orchestrated our lives accordingly so that we would hear the word. It also seems to indicate that God creates us for whatever purpose he wants. Some he creates for damnation to show either 1. his great mercy or 2. his wrath.

What is the official catholic teaching on predestination as taught by Paul in Romans 8-9

thanks

Hi there, predestination means that God saw it all before it actually happens and knows everything that will happen without making it happen, like watching a movie that you have seen before, you did not make what happen in the movie happen but you know what will happen because you have seen it before.
Also another way to think of it is like this, God lives outside time, so anyone He will know at any point in time, He already knows and always knows. Those who He will never know at any point in time(unsaved), He never knows. It’s like if you meet your friend in 2006 and he becomes your best friend then if you have the power to time travel you can go back to like 1990 and you will know your friend even though he doesn’t know you yet. If you can time travel and meet your friend in 2007 or at any point, then you can time travel to his childhood or any point in his life and you will know him even before he knows you and you know him based on having met him in 2007 but if you never meet him at any point in time then you will never know him in time travel because you won’t even know to look for him etc. So God lives outside time and it’s like a human time traveler. So anyone who will ever at any point give their heart to God, He will know them at any point in time even before they know Him. So it’s like you going back in time and helping your friend as a kid even though you won’t actually meet him till he’s like 30 or whatever, but if he told you someone hurt him as a kid you can go back in time and fix that even though he doesn’t know you yet. But you can’t do that for John Doe who you never met at any point in time. So God can orchestrate events ahead of time for people that He at some point in time came to know, those who gave their heart to Him. So that’s what predestination is God working on the behalf of those who He will know at some point since He lives outside time. That’s why God will tell other people that He never knew them on judgement. So it’s not God chooseing who will serve Him or not, it’s Him working ahead of time on behalf of those who He knows will eventually come to Him and He will know at some point.

 

[suupah]

So it’s not God chooseing who will serve Him or not, it’s Him working ahead of time on behalf of those who He knows will eventually come to Him and He will know at some point.

What you say makes the concept clear to me. Thanks. God knows all and therefore can work ahead of time to make a lost soul fulfill a purpose for his elect. But then again he has to know and see the lost soul if he is to use him. right?

 

[ryanoneil]

hmm, sounds a lot like the NAB notes

I think it basically says that God raised up Moses to display that mercy, and Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator.

YOU GOT IT!

Both of them where sinning lumps of clay. God shaped them according to His forknowledge of thier response to His word. He was patient with both and showed His just glory with both.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Melchior]

What you say makes the concept clear to me. Thanks. God knows all and therefore can work ahead of time to make a lost soul fulfill a purpose for his elect. But then again he has to know and see the lost soul if he is to use him. right?

Unfortunately, and respectfully, PaperMoon’s explanation that you just quoted turns the entire meaning of the passage upside down, making it about God acting according to what man does rather than God acting first as the sovereign potter. So the explanation is actually the antithesis of what the passage actually teaches. It is just a restatement of foreknowledge which is not predestination. They are two different things.

 

[suupah]

Unfortunately, and respectfully, PaperMoon’s explanation that you just quoted turns the entire meaning of the passage upside down, making it about God acting according to what man does rather than God acting first as the sovereign potter. So the explanation is actually the antithesis of what the passage actually teaches. It is just a restatement of foreknowledge which is not predestination. They are two different things.

No wonder it isn’t talked about at Mass. It is too confusing.

I thought what papermoon said was that God does predestine them for one thing or another from our time limited perspective. however he formed them as he did based on his foreknowledge of them. It makes sense.

However it would appear that the text simply says that God created them for that purpose and that we are not to question him on his motives.

 

[PaperMoon]

What you say makes the concept clear to me. Thanks. God knows all and therefore can work ahead of time to make a lost soul fulfill a purpose for his elect. But then again he has to know and see the lost soul if he is to use him. right?

Yup, exactly! And since God lives outside time, it doesn’t matter when along the timeline the person gives their heart to God as long as at some point they do/did. As long as they did at some point, then God always knew them before the world and anytime during because He lives outside time and it’s always the present to Him. If you meet someone today and then time travel back to the beginning of time, you will still remember and know the person you met today in 2007 even though that person is a loooong way away from being born yet. Except God doesn’t travel through time because He lives outside time. So anyone who will give their heart to God, God always knew them from the beginning of time and at every point in time. Those who never will give their heart to God then He never knew them at any point in time.

 

[PaperMoon]

YOU GOT IT!

Both of them where sinning lumps of clay. God shaped them according to His forknowledge of thier response to His word. He was patient with both and showed His just glory with both.

Peace,

Ryan

Yup, God knew that at no point in time would Pharoah ever turn his heart to God no matter what God did/would do, so He simply used Pharoah’s own stubburnness as His tool.

 

[cynic]

YOU GOT IT!

Both of them where sinning lumps of clay. God shaped them according to His forknowledge of thier response to His word. He was patient with both and showed His just glory with both.

Peace,

Ryan

this doesn’t make sense. How can God foreknow a response to his word without ‘shaping’ that too?