Romans 8-9 and predestination

[PaperMoon]

this doesn’t make sense. How can God foreknow a response to his word without ‘shaping’ that too?

God did not shape the behaviour. The core behaviour is just how the people were it’s just how Pharoah was and he was never going to change and God knew this, so he used his stubburness as a tool. When the Bible says God hardened his heart, it means that the more God spoke to him the more determined he was to NOT do what God wants. Kind of like the more you tell someone to do one thing the more determined they are to do the opposite so your telling him over and over just hardens their heart more and more. It’s in that sense that God hardened Pharoah’s heart.

 

[PaperMoon]

Yes and No. It answers the part about free will and us retaining our free will though God already knows who will and will not accept him. But what about this passage:

Sounds to me like God can create people for noble or ignoble purposes as is his prerogative. Sounds like he indeed create some to be ignoble to show his mercy and/or wrath.

When God hardens someone, it’s those who choose to be more stubburn and disobey God the more God tries to reach out to them. Some people will accept God’s mercy right away and some people will be sturbburn and will be determined to not listen to or obey God no matter what and the more God reaches out to them the more stubburn and determined they become to do their own thing. God’s not actually making them hard hearted, His reaching out to them is making them of their own stubburn will to be even more defiant and hard hearted. So God chooses those who He will reach out to knowing full well that their own stubburness will just harden their hearts even more and God reaches out ot those who will immediately accept His mercy.

 

[PaperMoon]

No wonder it isn’t talked about at Mass. It is too confusing.

I thought what papermoon said was that God does predestine them for one thing or another from our time limited perspective. however he formed them as he did based on his foreknowledge of them. It makes sense.

However it would appear that the text simply says that God created them for that purpose and that we are not to question him on his motives.

Yup that’s what I was saying. It’s based on His foreknowledge.

 

[ryanoneil]

this doesn’t make sense. How can God foreknow a response to his word without ‘shaping’ that too?

I don’t recall saying that God doesn’t shape things, and if I gave that impression I apologize. First, when I use the term forknowledge I’m including the idea that God is also making a declaration in advance. In other words, He already knows what is going to happen and is also asserting His will.

Obviously, God’s call (moving us to believe) is an act of His will and doesn’t depend on our response, because we haven’t responded to Him yet. Does predestination have anything to do with how we answer Him? I think it does. But this is God we are talking about here, and His ways are mysterious.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[cynic]

Does predestination have anything to do with how we answer Him? I think it does.

If it does then that means God has predestined some to not respond to him, or respond in the wrong way. In other words he predestines some to hell.

 

[cynic]

God did not shape the behaviour. The core behaviour is just how the people were it’s just how Pharoah was and he was never going to change and God knew this, so he **used his stubburness as a tool. **

I’ve highlighting that bit that’s interesteing.Take Judas for eg. Say what you will about Judas’s free will, *somebody *had to commit an evil act to enable the crucification. God required evil, he didn’t just work around it. So it seems that he creates certain invidividuals for this purpose, which is what the passages from Romans (make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?)
might refer to.

 

[ryanoneil]

If it does then that means God has predestined some to not respond to him, or respond in the wrong way. In other words he predestines some to hell.

I disagree. God predestines some people, and passes over the others. They will not come to God because of their sin, not because God damns them.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[suupah]

I’ve highlighting that bit that’s interesteing.Take Judas for eg. Say what you will about Judas’s free will, *somebody *had to commit an evil act to enable the crucification. God required evil, he didn’t just work around it. So it seems that he creates certain invidividuals for this purpose, which is what the passages from Romans (make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?)
might refer to.

I see it that way too at face value. But after considering that God lives outside of time and knows our eternal souls and what they are going to do, he may have willed and formed someone that was not going to be saved anyway and used them for another purpose.

 

[ryanoneil]

I’ve highlighting that bit that’s interesteing.Take Judas for eg. Say what you will about Judas’s free will, *somebody *had to commit an evil act to enable the crucification. God required evil, he didn’t just work around it. So it seems that he creates certain invidividuals for this purpose, which is what the passages from Romans (make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?)
might refer to.

What do you mean by God required evil? Is that the same as God allowed evil, so we could love Him of our own free will? Would you agree the only way we can really love is if we are free to hate?

What do you say about Judas’ free will? What about Adam’s free will?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

People like St John Chrysostom comment on these sections note that Paul is bringing up imagery from places like Jer 18:1-10 which help show it is not about God being a tyrant but rather man needing to realize his relationship between Creator and creature.

 

[cynic]

I disagree. God predestines some people, and passes over the others. They will not come to God because of their sin, not because God damns them.

Peace,

Ryan

how is passing over and predestining any different in effect? God would know full well what the fate ‘passed over’ is.

 

[cynic]

I see it that way too at face value. But after considering that God lives outside of time and knows our eternal souls and what they are going to do, he may have willed and formed someone that was not going to be saved anyway and used them for another purpose.

then that purpose still required evil. In the case of the crucification it’s hard to see how the goal (if you can call it that) could have been acheived without evil.

 

[PaperMoon]

I’ve highlighting that bit that’s interesteing.Take Judas for eg. Say what you will about Judas’s free will, *somebody *had to commit an evil act to enable the crucification. God required evil, he didn’t just work around it. So it seems that he creates certain invidividuals for this purpose, which is what the passages from Romans (make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?)
might refer to.

God did not create Judas to sin or commit evil niether did He shape Judas to commit evil, God simply took someone who already had that kind of evilness in his heart and used him for that purpose. Judas was already evil and on his way to hell because of his own choices even if he had never met or worked with Jesus. That’s why God picked him. It’s like picking a serial killer to do the job since he’s already evil and has the evilness at his core by his own choices. God did not make Judas who he was and God did not make Judas do what he did, He simply provided the oportunity for Judas to just be himself. Judas could have still repented even after that but chose not to.

 

[PaperMoon]

I see it that way too at face value. But after considering that God lives outside of time and knows our eternal souls and what they are going to do, he may have willed and formed someone that was not going to be saved anyway and used them for another purpose.

Exactly! Since they are already evil and will go to hell by their own choices then might as well use that to His advantage when He can.

 

[PaperMoon]

then that purpose still required evil. In the case of the crucification it’s hard to see how the goal (if you can call it that) could have been acheived without evil.

And God did not have to look far for it either! There was probably a thousand choices God had to choose from when He picked Judas. God did not have to shape or create evil at all. It’s the goodness and holiness He has to shape within those He has seen will give their hearts to Him. Remember it was because of man’s evilness that Jesus had to die for our sins to begin with.

 

[grandfather]

God did not create Judas to sin or commit evil niether did He shape Judas to commit evil, God simply took someone who already had that kind of evilness in his heart and used him for that purpose. Judas was already evil and on his way to hell because of his own choices even if he had never met or worked with Jesus. That’s why God picked him. It’s like picking a serial killer to do the job since he’s already evil and has the evilness at his core by his own choices. God did not make Judas who he was and God did not make Judas do what he did, He simply provided the oportunity for Judas to just be himself. Judas could have still repented even after that but chose not to.

But all of us are like Judas in a sense. We are already evil sinful beings. Peter repents of His sin of betrayal and Judas the betrayer hangs himself. Why did God use the already evil Judas for one purpose and allow Peter to repent and be the head of His Church? We do not know. Beyond looking at these figures and wondering about them we have to look at ourselves. Every time I sin I betray Christ. You also do the same.

 

[suupah]

But all of us are like Judas in a sense. We are already evil sinful beings. Peter repents of His sin of betrayal and Judas the betrayer hangs himself. Why did God use the already evil Judas for one purpose and allow Peter to repent and be the head of His Church? We do not know. Beyond looking at these figures and wondering about them we have to look at ourselves. Every time I sin I betray Christ. You also do the same.

Yes, this is true. these things are beyond my pay grade and really not clear. Otherwise theologians would be in agreement about them.

 

[ryanoneil]

how is passing over and predestining any different in effect? God would know full well what the fate ‘passed over’ is.

then that purpose still required evil. In the case of the crucification it’s hard to see how the goal (if you can call it that) could have been acheived without evil.

GOD DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF!

Maybe it would be helpfull to go back to the beginning. If Adam didn’t really have a choice, then God’s warning him not to eat the forbidden fruit would have been a meaningless threat. If Adam weren’t free, he would have already been predetermined to disobey the divine command, any warning from God would have been irrelevant. This gets into the mystery of God’s sovereignty which includes, not excludes, our free will. To argue that God was issuing a meaningless warning makes God a deceiver and a liar. This is not true (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18). The only liar in the garden was Satan, the father of lies.

Christ would not have had to redeem us by the blood of His cross if we weren’t free, because God would not have been angered by our sins (which is the reason Christ had to suffer). Instead, we would have already been excused by our lack of freedom, since sin no longer would have been a choice.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[grandfather]

GOD DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF!

Maybe it would be helpfull to go back to the beginning. If Adam didn’t really have a choice, then God’s warning him not to eat …To argue that God was issuing a meaningless warning makes God a deceiver and a liar. This is not true (Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18). The only liar in the garden was Satan, the father of lies.

Christ would not have had to redeem us by the blood of His cross if we weren’t free, because God would not have been angered by our sins (which is the reason Christ had to suffer). Instead, we would have already been excused by our lack of freedom, since sin no longer would have been a choice.

I understand the theologians look at this issue and how they use free will to try to explain it. I have heard many attempts at explaining predestination from people who think they understand it and all of them fall short, because there is mystery that remains. I read the book on predenstination by Garigou-LaGrange who was Pope John Paul II’s major professor when he studied for his PhD. It did not solve the mystery. People who come to faith, become aware of the gravity of their sins, truly repent of their sins, live grace filled lives say, “why me”. We do not know even why God gives us individually the gift of faith and another does not receive it. We do not know why Peter repented and Judas did not. If Judas betrayed Jesus and repented Jesus would have forgiven him. He hung hinself in despair instead. Still we do not know the disposition of his soul. Who can judge the soul of another? Only God. We pray for all souls. O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of your mercy.

 

[ryanoneil]

Dear grandfather,

I can’t fully explain it either which is why I originally included the part of the quote you deleted.

If Adam weren’t free, he would have already been predetermined to disobey the divine command, any warning from God would have been irrelevant. This gets into the mystery of God’s sovereignty which includes, not excludes, our free will.

We can be sure that free will is part of that mystery. The passage about the rich man actually proves the truth of Catholic teaching. The rich man kept the letter of the law by avoiding sin. He also obviously had faith in Jesus. (which was given to him by the Father) But Jesus exhorts him to add works to his faith in order to attain salvation (by selling his goods to the poor). Jesus tells him that his faith alone will not save him. We must add works to our faith. (which is an act of our free will) This is why James says that we are “justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24). When you decide to study the 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church, which includes the teachings of all the fathers, doctors and medievals, you will discover that they were all Catholic, and that our free will is part of God’s plan.

Peace,

Ryan